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Post by katt on Feb 16, 2011 18:15:07 GMT -5
Ok so I don't want to totally retype the whole thing so COPY PASTE From Skype last night and edited to read esier. That is easier than retyping the whole thing. lol I am a little anxious about Koda... Katt: Ok ya I just got woken up....by the boys. I'm kind of nervous :S Virginia: awe what happened? Katt: Well they were "playing" but I could hear Kenai getting really agitated and losing much more than usual. He was barking at Koda and Koda was dooming really intensely... Virginia: uh oh Katt: So I turned on a light and Koda has poor Kenai in a lock and looked like he was humpig him! :,( And earlier in the night I had to force Koda to release Kenai, he didn't let go when I opened the cage and he ALWAYS drops EVERYTHING when I open the cage And he has been trying to stash Kenai more often which at first thought was play but he hasn't done really since Kenai First came home.... Koda is REALLY young but he wouldn't be the first young ferret....he is DEF in shed as his fur is very short and scraggly but not Bald... Virginia: who was it that had the thinning tail? Kattrina Crouch: Koda So now I am really worried :,( And I know I tend to be very very hyper paranoid when it comes to Koda.....bt he ALWAYS stops ANYTHING he's doing when I open the cage....and he didn't. It is just SO out of charter for him I'll definitely be keeping an eagle eye on him Virginia: AWE I'm sorry. It if helps any I read that the male ferret when mating holds the female down for a LONG time like an hour or longer so if he isn't going that long holding Kenai down he not be actually humping him. Also read that ferrets don't hump like dogs more like once they get "in" they just hold it there Katt: Well I don't know how Long he held bc I had to scruff him and he STILL didn't let go and I hissed and STILL no and he didn't let go until I pried his mouth off wih my finger And Kenai was twisted (trying to get free) so his bottom half was facing more belly up under Koda Which I know isn't "mating position" so I REALLY hope it's just play! No he didn't hiss but I had to pry him off Kenai earlier tonight too I had been considering getting preventative Lupron anyways....I had just decided Not too bt I could just do it in case now... Virginia: Is he fixed? Katt: Yes, he's an RC mill fert Thoughts? Is it possible he could be hormonal from teh seasonal change, but NOT adrenal? I know it was only once so far, but it was VERY out of character to not come running and drop what he was doing when I opened the cage. Obviously I will keep an eye out for more tell-tale behaviour and if no more shows up, I assume I should not worry....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 18:34:08 GMT -5
Has he been uncharacteristically hyper lately? I know Jennifer's kid were hyper and that was a symptom of them being adrenal. If you catch him doing it more frequently, maybe you could get a 1-2 lupron shots and see if it stops. Is lupron expensive there?
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Post by katt on Feb 16, 2011 18:49:02 GMT -5
Has he been uncharacteristically hyper lately? I know Jennifer's kid were hyper and that was a symptom of them being adrenal. If you catch him doing it more frequently, maybe you could get a 1-2 lupron shots and see if it stops. Is lupron expensive there? I think it runs like $50....so yes. But I could be wrong. That could be for 2 shots or for the shot and exam? I am remembering from a year ago so I am not sure. lol I wouldn't say he has been extra hyper. I am keeping an eye on him though. He is itchy, but he is also shedding.
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Post by acodlin on Feb 16, 2011 20:58:38 GMT -5
I'd keep an eye on his behavior. With dean and auggie they both would latch on to another ferret and they would litterally hold on for an hour. I would have to pry them off of whoever the victim was. They would make this noise similar to dooking but it was really really fast. Dean started with aggression before he had hair loss, auggie was already naked when I rescued him. Auggie is only 2 and dean is 3. My guys ended up with it so early because of poor diet/care i'm sure. Koda is probably fine, mine are going through spring shed already and a couple of them are acting like they've been posessed by some deamon ferret lol totally wild and uncontrollable.
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Post by Sherry on Feb 16, 2011 21:36:49 GMT -5
Although that does sound like adrenal behaviour, as you say- it's only happened the once so far that you are aware of. I'd keep a close eye for the next short while, and see if it happens again.
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Post by Heather on Feb 16, 2011 22:12:32 GMT -5
I find that even ferrets who aren't adrenal, get hyper at this time of year. Altered ferrets feel the seasonal changes too. The hormonal fluctuations and the lack of any method to properly control it is one of the major problems that usually result in adrenal disease in the first place. Your little one may just be feeling the change of the season. I would think (no I hope) that Koda is still too young to be having adrenal problems. All my brats are hyped and ready to go right now, with lots of bratty type humping. Koda may have done what sort of felt right at the time only because he was in the right position . ciao
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Post by katt on Feb 17, 2011 9:48:09 GMT -5
They would make this noise similar to dooking but it was really really fast. That's the noise! I think I just felt my heart crack in 2 and my stomach drop away guys. I feel sick and I am hoping SO hard right now that this is just hormones but my gut is starting to feel off... Last night they woke me up at 4 am wih their "wrestling." Tonight it was 5 am. He showed no signs of doing anything all day but then THIS is what I woke up to. I tried 3 times before getting it on video the first 2 times Koda would stop and rush to the door when he saw me. Third time's the charm I guess. Could it still be just hormones? Why does it seem that wih Koda if it CAN happen it does. Talk about baptism through fire! :,( This is just getting SO exhausting. I expected medical problems, I expected adrenal, but not NOW! he's still just a baby for goodness ask he's not even 2 yet! :,( :,( :,( :,( A little background I brought Koda home Dec 2009 when he was about 8 weeks old. My sleep/wake schedule is very off and very inconsistent. I am often up into the wee hours of the morning. The light stays on until late, but I try to turn it off as soon as we are done needing it and use a small lamp with a bluelight instead or a booklight or just my comp or whatever. He seems to be doing this at night/early early am. Is this Timed behavior normal? (for normal hormonal ferrets or adrenal ferrets?)
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Post by Sherry on Feb 17, 2011 10:18:48 GMT -5
That's the behaviour Sinnead does. But she does it any time of the day or night, not specific ones. I'm sorry, katt- I don't know what to tell you. I'd seriously think about a couple of lupron's anyway, even if it's not adrenal, it's certainly hormonal at the very least. And it would give poor Kenai a break if nothing else.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2011 11:09:11 GMT -5
Katt, Don't panic...adrenal is unfortunately part of owing a neutered ferret.
I know you already know a lot or all of this next part, but I'm writing this for newer ferret owners who may be reading.....
Here is my weird and admittedly phobic insight to adrenal issues. Per Dr. Johnson-Delaney's publication, a ferret (intact or neutered) will experience a spike in hormone levels in the Spring. A spike means that hormone levels peak and then recede. SO adrenal activity is highest in late winter/early spring. Now, when a ferret is neutered, the signals from the pituitary gland continue to tell the body to "make hormones", and the adrenals will responds by generating the hormones unless something is done to stop the "make hormone signals from the brain. This is what the lupron and deslorelin do - these implants are used to stop the "make hormone" signals from the brain.
While Koda is definitely experiencing adrenal-driven behavior, he may settle down in a month or two. Remember, all neutered ferrets are "adrenal" (i.e., adrenal-active) UNLESS you do something to stop the signals from the brain.
Here are fully self-invented definitions - which are MY FULLY BIASED and HIGHLY PARANOID opinions based upon everything I've read coupled with my experiences....
1. All ferrets (neutered or intact) most likely produce some sex hormones produce some sex hormones in the adrenals. Ths is true of people and other animals. Adrenals can and do produce some sex hormones if gonads are present.
2. All mature ferrets (i.e., they have reached puberty) that are neutered are what I call "adrenal" , which means their adrenal glands are actively producing hormones (above and beyond that which would be produced by an intact ferret) UNLESS some type of medical intervention is EFFECTIVELY stopping this activity.
3. Adrenal "Disease" - so the question arises: do all neutered ferrets have adrenal disease? No. According to me (ad probably most vets), disease is present when the cells withing the gland become altered by adrenal activity. "Alerted" does not necessarily mean cancer. For example, hyerplasia refers to an overgrowth of cells that have normal structure. However, I beleive that excessive adrenal activity will eventually result in disease if the ferret lives long enough to be affected. You simply cannot use an endocrine gland for the wrong purpose forever...it will become diseasesd according to by endocrinologist.
So when does aadrenal activity turn into adrenal disease? The only way we can determine ths for certain with 100% acuracy is to biopsy both adrenal glands (all over the gland too - you might have a lesion behind the right gland that cannot be seen, or lesions may be microscopic)
Currently, we have very limited means of determining the onset of adrenal "disease". The 3 primary techniques include: 1. biopsy (which is pretty much useless since we do not cut our animals open unless we're already pretty darn certain disease is present.) Again again, biopsy won't detct diesease of we don't get tissue from a diseased area of the gland. 2. Tennessee panel. Very accurate (98-99% accuracy). As far as my experience goes, even very low levels of blood evevation have proven accurate with regard to changes in cell structure in my animals. In fact, I suspect diease begis in moste ferrets earlier than is demonstrated by the panel. However, if blood work is marginal, I postpone surgery. Also, the adrenal panel cannot account for a hormnal spike - we simply have very little info on these spikes. (More on the adrenal panel later.) 3. Ultrasound - not reliable. An enlarged gland indiates diseased tissue (at least hyperplasia). However, a gland can be badly diseased without being enlarged. 4. Behavior. I have found that adrenal behavior is a fairly accurate indicator of disease if it initiates in the spring and persists into the summer. 5. Obvious clinical signs. Obvious clinical sins are prety darne accurate at identifyin disease. I has been my experience that ferret xhibiting clssic signs of disease are not early stage cases.
So, I have to run. Please let me know if you hae ay questions.
-jennifer 5.
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Post by goingpostal on Feb 17, 2011 11:24:33 GMT -5
Craven tends to do most of his humping at night, but he would never stop for seeing me or things going on in their room, he's very focused on holding onto the other ferret and that's it. I have to go pry him off.
Interesting about worse hormones in winter/spring, I usually see the opposite here. Pip started with sexual aggression in the summer, Craven started dropping hair and humping in Sept. Precious I think was spring though, I believe we did her surgery in June.
I would probably start Lupron if it were one of mine, do a few months, it doesn't help all adrenals but worth a try.
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Post by bluemoose on Feb 17, 2011 12:07:42 GMT -5
I don't have any advice but I'll be thinking and praying for you and Koda. /hugs
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Post by Heather on Feb 17, 2011 12:08:09 GMT -5
I agree entirely with Jennifer. I honestly believe judging from the hyped up activity of the altered ferrets in the spring that all ferrets are adrenal after they're altered. I read an awesome article, lost it when my computer crashed. Jennifer explains it much simpler though and much more concise I have all my males at the moment chasing tails. Not horribly but they're doing it (well everyone except Captain Jack who has had his des shot and has stopped humping everyone ) I will do nothing for now. If the behaviour stops by May or June, I know that my guys have still got time yet before things get nasty and I have to do something. Just because we've altered our little ones doesn't mean that the season is turned off in their minds and bodies. They still react, as far as I can tell the only thing that comes close to shutting this off is the des implants. I don't know if by getting des implants into them when this behaviour first starts does it stave off the adrenal disease for longer? I'm in wait and see mode. I've had a number of fuzzes who have lived ripe old ages, who've been doing the "spring thing" for years. They stop in around June or so and then don't start up again until the next spring. It doesn't interferre with what they're doing. Captain Jack would spend his whole day looking for a mate, anyone would do. The des has stopped that. If you're really concerned that perhaps Koda is possibly going into an aggressive stage of adrenal you can give him lupron, or because you're in the US (well it might not work for you either) the Tennessee panel is always an option. Theoretically....it should be positive at this time of year but I'm gathering from what Jennifer has mentioned that there are degrees of positive that you can look at as well. There is also the des implant....of course that depends if you can get one availability is becoming a serious issue ciao
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2011 13:29:09 GMT -5
Oh Katt, I do really hope that you are just being a good, paranoid ferrant and/or this is just a fluke spring influx of hormones. Koda is too young!
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Post by katt on Feb 17, 2011 14:21:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the input guys. Heather, Jennifer - do you guys think I should wait to do Lupron until this summer and see if he stops? He doesn't seem to be hurting Kenai, just... annoying and traumatizing him. What is the standard progression of treatment? I know about the disease, but I really don't know a whole lot about the treatment, just minimal, super basics. If I START with a des implant, then later will it not work and I have to go to more extreme treatments? How often is lurpon given and can you order it to give your self, or does the vet have to do it every time? If I start it do I have to continue giving it for the rest of his life, or could I give it until this summer and then take him off?
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Post by Sherry on Feb 17, 2011 16:12:39 GMT -5
Since you are at a similar latitude to what I am, the monthly lupron should be the one they do. To the best of my understanding, the 3 and 4 month depot are what they use in areas closer to the equator, since they seem to need the extra burst at the start.
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