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Post by racheld on Nov 14, 2014 9:03:45 GMT -5
I have one more mouse half and then I'm going to introduce them whole with the digestive tract out. Excited! This morning when I brought him his breakfast he was waiting in his hammock and didn't want to come down so I fed him in his cage instead of in my lap. Good for him, sad for me...
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Post by katt on Nov 14, 2014 14:22:26 GMT -5
1 GP = 4 meals, 1 rabbit = 10 meals, 1 mouse = 1 meal, and 1 rat = 2 meals for example's sake. Sun: am: rabbit pm: mice
Mon: am: rabbit pm: rat
Tues: am: rabbit pm: rabbit
Wed: am: GP pm: mice
Thurs: am: mice pm: mice
Fri: am: rabbit pm: mice
Sat: am: GP pm: mice
Sun: am: rabbit pm: mice
Mon: am: rabbit pm: rat
Tues: am: rabbit pm: rabbit
Wed: am: GP pm: mice
Thurs: am: mice pm: mice
Fri: am: rabbit pm: mice
Sat: am: GP pm: mice
I did two weeks just for the sake of showing spreading out the entire GP and entire rabbit. You could replace some of the mice meals with frankenprey for more variety, just be sure to include the occasional organ and/or heart meal if you do, especially if you end up incorporating a significant amount of frankenprey. The odd meal you don't have to worry as much, it's more when you start shifting the balance. Remember that Frankenprey should be 10% organ and 10% heart, so you want 1 organ and 1 heart meal for every 8 frankenprey muscle meals. So say if one week you gave him 4 frankenprey muscle meals, then the next week you might add in one meal that's half heart and half liver. I hope that makes sense. Since he is almost entirely whole prey balance is much less of an issue, but I want to make sure you understand the balancing in case you do end up having weeks that he gets frankenprey in significant amounts.
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Post by racheld on Nov 14, 2014 21:04:36 GMT -5
I might end up waiting to add rat until I'm done paying off this semester at school...I'm doing monthly payments but money is still gonna be tight for a bit. Three proteins (GP, mice, and those rabbits once they're butchered) are okay for a while right?
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Post by katt on Nov 15, 2014 6:29:44 GMT -5
Yep, and you can always mix in Frankenprey meals for variety don't forget. Not a bad idea to keep him remembering what they all are after so much work introducing him to those meats anyways. And then if you ever have a pet sitter who is squeamish about whole prey you can have some "normal" meat for them - though it sounds like you have a great sitter already (can I get his/her number? LOL).
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Post by racheld on Nov 15, 2014 8:56:58 GMT -5
She really is great. I will pass along the compliment. He appears to remember that frankenprey is food because I have to put Naima's up every day while he's out or he'll steal it. Lol He's doing SO well with his whole mouse. I didn't have to hand feed him, just put it in the cage for him. So I will probably get a guinea pig out to thaw soon and once it's portioned we can start rotating mice and guinea pig.
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Post by katt on Nov 15, 2014 14:24:20 GMT -5
Great! When are you getting some rabbit? Hey - remember when he didn't want to eat slivers and how frustrating it was? You've done an awesome job of pushing through! Congrats - test yourself today! (dance)
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Post by racheld on Nov 19, 2014 10:48:30 GMT -5
I think we will both be glad when I start alternating mouse and guinea pig. He's still eating but it takes him a few minutes to resign himself to it. Lol. And I picked up those rabbits today. They're skinned and gutted like store bought ones but I'm glad I have them to use as a sort of buffer when I'm ready to introduce whole prey rabbit.
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Post by katt on Nov 19, 2014 17:51:29 GMT -5
Great! Soooo do you want help introducing rat? I think you have the process down really. I'd like to get you menue'ed up so you can graduate. He's eating whole prey, he has his proteins...all you need to do is make a menu and pass the "tst."
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Post by racheld on Nov 19, 2014 19:05:24 GMT -5
I probably will want to keep the thread open, at least. And more proteins will need to wait until my bank account recovers a bit from paying for my spring semester and textbooks.
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Post by katt on Nov 20, 2014 21:02:58 GMT -5
Final Exam Timmmmeeeee! Answer when you have time. And please post a week's menu. 1.) You have run out of heart, how much taurine supplement should your ferrets get? (be specific) 2.) List 2 good sources of taurine. 3.) How can you tell if your ferret is getting too much or too little bone? 4.) In an emergency (you run out of bone), what are 2 acceptable bone substitutes and how much should your ferrets get? (be specific) 5.) What counts as a "different protein source?" 6.) List 3 organs aside from liver. 7.) How many meals a week should be organ, and of those meals how much needs to be liver? 8.) Is it a good idea to mix muscle meat, bone in and organs all in one meal. Explain why. 9.) How many different proteins does a ferret need in a week at a Minimum? 10.) Is it best to feed the egg whites, egg yolk, or the entire egg? 11.) How can you tell if your ferret is too fat or too skinny? 12.) Are leaner meats better for your ferret or fattier meats? 13.) Is dark or white meat a better purchase choice? 14.) Why is cooking meat generally considered inadvisable? 15.) How long does each type of meat generally stay good: raw soup, ground meat, med-large chunks, bone-in meats, whole prey?
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Post by racheld on Nov 20, 2014 21:10:07 GMT -5
Weekly Menu: MonAM: 2 Mice MonPM: Mouse
Tues: 3oz Guinea pig
Wed: 3oz Rabbit chunk
ThursAM: 1/4 Rat ThursPM: 1/4 Rat
FriAM: 2 Mice FriPM: Mouse
Sat: 3oz Guinea Pig
Sun: 3oz Rabbit
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Post by katt on Nov 20, 2014 21:11:02 GMT -5
LOL Love it! Whole prey is so easy! I wish everyone fed whole prey.
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Post by racheld on Nov 20, 2014 21:21:16 GMT -5
1.) You have run out of heart, how much taurine supplement should your ferrets get? (be specific) 250mg/day
2.) List 2 good sources of taurine. Beef heart, turkey drumstick.
3.) How can you tell if your ferret is getting too much or too little bone? Too much bone will cause seedy poops or constipation, too little bone will cause loose poops.
4.) In an emergency (you run out of bone), what are 2 acceptable bone substitutes and how much should your ferrets get? (be specific) Human grade bone meal or crushed egg shells. 1/2 teaspoon per 10oz meat.
5.) What counts as a "different protein source?" A separate animal from what you're feeding. (i.e. a chicken breast and a chicken thigh are the same protein source. Chicken and duck are different protein sources.)
6.) List 3 organs aside from liver. Pancreas, thymus, testes.
7.) How many meals a week should be organ, and of those meals how much needs to be liver? 3 meals should be organ, 1.5 meals should be liver.
8.) Is it a good idea to mix muscle meat, bone in and organs all in one meal. Explain why. Yes, IF the meal is properly balanced. Well balanced meals give good poops and replicate whole prey. If meals cannot be balanced it's a better idea to do one type in the morning and one in the evening--liver in the morning and chicken wing in the evening.
9.) How many different proteins does a ferret need in a week at a Minimum? 3.
10.) Is it best to feed the egg whites, egg yolk, or the entire egg? Yolks.
11.) How can you tell if your ferret is too fat or too skinny? The ribs and hipbones are obvious to the touch in a ferret who is too skinny. On a ferret who is too fat they can't be felt.
12.) Are leaner meats better for your ferret or fattier meats? Leaner, as long as the ferret's fat requirements are being met.
13.) Is dark or white meat a better purchase choice? Dark Meat contains more taurine so it's a better purchase.
14.) Why is cooking meat generally considered inadvisable? It leeches nutrients and if the cooked meat contains bones they can splinter.
15.) How long does each type of meat generally stay good: raw soup, ground meat, med-large chunks, bone-in meats, whole prey? Raw soup: 4-6 hours Ground meat: 6-8 hours Med-large chunks: 10-12 hours Bone-in meats: 12-24 hours Whole prey: 24-48 hours
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Post by katt on Nov 20, 2014 21:48:15 GMT -5
1.) You have run out of heart, how much taurine supplement should your ferrets get? (be specific) 250mg/daySome recommend 250, some recommend 500 so we typically go with 500 to stay on the safe side, esp because excess will simply be filtered out in the urine. 2.) List 2 good sources of taurine. Beef heart, turkey drumstick.Yep any heart. Also, beef tongue is very high in taurine and is an acceptable temporary replacement for heart in an emergency, but we recomend supplementing with taurine if beef tongue is going to be replacing heart for any length of time. Dark meat is higher in taurine than light meat, but is not a suitable replacement for heart. 3.) How can you tell if your ferret is getting too much or too little bone? Too much bone will cause seedy poops or constipation, too little bone will cause loose poops.Yep yep! 4.) In an emergency (you run out of bone), what are 2 acceptable bone substitutes and how much should your ferrets get? (be specific) Human grade bone meal or crushed egg shells. 1/2 teaspoon per 10oz meat.Yep yep! 5.) What counts as a "different protein source?" A separate animal from what you're feeding. (i.e. a chicken breast and a chicken thigh are the same protein source. Chicken and duck are different protein sources.)Yep yep! 6.) List 3 organs aside from liver. Pancreas, thymus, testes.Mmmm testes! Also brain and spleen and 2 that people can often find (esp brain). Stomach is technically considered an "other organ" but is very low in nutrients and is something that (as you have experienced with Remus) they typically pick out anyways so we don't recommend it very highly. You CAN feed it, but it should not be a significant part of their regular diet. 7.) How many meals a week should be organ, and of those meals how much needs to be liver? 3 meals should be organ, 1.5 meals should be liver.I know you have the 10% and 10%, and think better in %'s and I think I confused you earlier so I'll try explaining the meal approach in a way that maybe jives with your %-minded brain better. Typically people feed 2 meals a day. So we count one "meal" as food eaten in 12 hours. (So breakfast and food eaten during the day is am meal, dinner and food eaten overnight is pm meal). On this schedule, they get 14 meals a week. 10% of 14 meals is 1.4, so roughly 1.5 meals. They need 10% heart (1.5 meals) and 10% organ (1.5 meals) OF that 10% organ, it should be *at LEAST* half liver and *up to* half other organs - so 5% liver, 5% other organs. When explaining to people how to split this up there are typically 2 Main approaches: Make a 50/50 mix of liver and other organs, and offer that for 1 1/2 meals a week Make one meal liver, and the half meal other organ. For simplicity's sake, I usually suggest that people combine the half meal of heart and the half meal of organs. So your 3 meals would be: 1 meal liver 1 meal heart 1 meal 1/2 heart, 1/2 other organs OR 1 meal 50/50 organ mix 1 meal heart 1 meal 1/2 heart, 1/2 organ mix (so 1/2 heart, 1/4 liver, 1/4 other organs) 8.) Is it a good idea to mix muscle meat, bone in and organs all in one meal. Explain why. Yes, IF the meal is properly balanced. Well balanced meals give good poops and replicate whole prey. If meals cannot be balanced it's a better idea to do one type in the morning and one in the evening--liver in the morning and chicken wing in the evening.I asked you this on purpose because you only have one ferret and we didn't cover this - it is a trick question sorry. lol The answer is actually No. Feeding mixed meals is totally fine if you only have one ferret. However, if you have multiple ferrets it is NOT recommended as it can cause huge issues in balance. With multiple ferrets you simply can't monitor who is eating what at all times, and while ferrets fed raw from birth will often self regulate, most ferrets (ESP ferrets who have ever been on a kibble diet) cannot be trusted to self regulate. Just think about how picky Remus has been. For example say you have a group of ferrets and one really doesn't care for liver. He may eat around the liver, picking out everything else instead and now suddenly you have one ferret who is severely deficient in liver and the rest are getting too much liver because it's all that is left over. On the flip, say you have a ferret who LOVES heart (like Koda - he adores chicken hearts) - that ferret may zip in and gobble up all of the heart meat every time before the other ferrets have a chance to get their share. Now again you have some ferrets with a deficiency and another getting too much of one thing (which simultaneously means that he is also missing out on the other things he should also be eating). This can lead to serious nutrient deficiencies over time. 9.) How many different proteins does a ferret need in a week at a Minimum? 3.Yep yep! 10.) Is it best to feed the egg whites, egg yolk, or the entire egg? Yolks.IF you are feeding only one or the other then yes, yolk is better. However, it is actually best to feed the whole egg. Egg is a very well balanced protein and feeding only one part or the other means they are missing out on a lot of really good nutrients. Here is a good thread on it, see my post on page 6 (lots of red lol): holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/3811/raw-eggs-safe?page=1 11.) How can you tell if your ferret is too fat or too skinny? The ribs and hipbones are obvious to the touch in a ferret who is too skinny. On a ferret who is too fat they can't be felt.Yep. Another good way to tell is by dangling them - their sides should be roughly parallel. If their sides bulge out, they are chubby, and if they have a "waist" they are too thin. This is also a way to check spleen and liver enlargement too, which will show up as a bulge on only one side. 12.) Are leaner meats better for your ferret or fattier meats? Leaner, as long as the ferret's fat requirements are being met.Ferrets' primary source of energy is fat, so fatty meats are actually really good for them provided they aren't overweight. Obviously, a good balance is best, but people who feed Frankenprey tend to feed a lot of really lean meats (like poultry) AND people tend of often buy meat without the skin on, and the SubQ fat is a really important fat-source for ferrets - so for this reason we actually recommend feeding fattier cuts of meat when possible and feeding the skin if they buy skin-on meat (again provided the ferret is not overweight). 13.) Is dark or white meat a better purchase choice? Dark Meat contains more taurine so it's a better purchase.Yep! 14.) Why is cooking meat generally considered inadvisable? It leeches nutrients and if the cooked meat contains bones they can splinter.Yep yep! 15.) How long does each type of meat generally stay good: raw soup, ground meat, med-large chunks, bone-in meats, whole prey? Raw soup: 4-6 hours Ground meat: 6-8 hours Med-large chunks: 10-12 hours Bone-in meats: 12-24 hours Whole prey: 24-48 hoursYeppers! Awesome job! (dance) As I explained earlier this test is largely to point out any spots that I missed during this process. Since I'm priming you up for mentoring hopefully (dance), I specifically asked some Q's that come up a lot that I don't think we really covered with you having only one ferret and going for Frankenprey. If you have any questions about my responses let me know! (Oh and you pass )
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Post by katt on Nov 20, 2014 21:49:05 GMT -5
Copying the egg part:
Posting this because my original post on this has been buried under a long thread. I have been seeing a lot of egg stuff going on lately and feel the need to refresh this...
Ferrets can and SHOULD eat the ENTIRE egg.
First - quail eggs. Quail eggs are fantastic, super high in nutrients. But there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with chicken eggs. (unless you want to get in the whole GMO thing, but that is a completely different issue).
Now, egg whites. Egg whites contain a molecule called Avidin, that binds a nutrient called Biotin so the body cannot use it. Biotin is super important in the body, so if the Biotin is all being bound up, it causes a Biotin deficiency that can be a real issue. HOWEVER!!!! It would technically take a lot of raw egg whites, over a long period of time before a ferret developed a deficiency. BUT unfortunately many people would see that and think "oh, egg whites must be fine then!" and feed their ferrets too much egg white - that would be very bad. So as a rule, we tell people to never feed RAW egg whites ALONE.
Now HERE is the important part. Egg yolks are one of nature's RICHEST sources of biotin. They have SO much Biotin, that they effectively NEGATE the avidin in the egg whites. Does that make sense? Thus if you feed the WHOLE EGG you do NOT need to be concerned about a biotin deficiency.
Egg whites have a lot of really good proteins and nutrients in them. Yolks do as well. If you do not feed the whole egg, you are really doing your ferrets a serious disservice in my opinion. Whole raw eggs are a very complete and nutritious protein. Think about what an egg does...Eggs are designed to grow an entire baby animal from scratch inside of them, providing all of the necessary nutrients for healthy growth. At the same time, there's no poop-hole in an egg, so the egg must be equally efficient at eliminating any waste produced by the growing animal. As a result, eggs are a very unique and incredibly nutritious food. IF. FED. WHOLE. IF you do not feed the whole egg, you are missing out on a huge chunk of important nutrients.
Think of it this way - if a wild ferret or pole cat comes across a nest of eggs in the wild, do you think they are just going to suck out the egg yolks and leave the whites? Absolutely not! They would eat the whole thing!
I will answer a few common questions.... 1.) A chicken egg white is NOT too much egg white for a ferret, as long as the ENTIRE egg (white AND yolk) is fed 2.) Feeding the ENTIRE egg (white AND yolk) effectively eliminates any avidin/biotin issues! 3.) There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with chicken eggs. 4.) NO - do NOT feed plain whites - you MUST include the Yolk. However, whites should Not be excluded either. 5.) Raw eggs are absolutely, unequivocally best fed WHOLE - egg and yolk together
Feed the whole egg. Rule of thumb is no more than 1 egg per ferret every 3 days, though more can be offered if they are shedding but be careful to not give too much or they will have really bad poops.
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