trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
|
Post by trutan85 on Jul 29, 2014 23:14:03 GMT -5
Lol, ferrets are the strangest people sometimes.
I'll make a spreadsheet and tinker with it, it'll help me organize and figure things out.
The hearts went as I expected. The boys dove in and chowed down, which at this point came as no surprise. Thor sampled the taste on her own but needed to be convinced to have a few nibbles, also not very surprising. The fact she tasted it on her own suggests that she is at least a little open to tasting new things, notice I said tasting, not eating lol. The fact that she sat and "tasted" the hearts as long as she did suggests that she doesn't hate the taste of them, if she did I think she would've walked away a lot sooner.
So my analysis of them goes like this: Loki and Clyde are open to trying and eating new things and Thor is one stubborn girl. This is slightly surprising as out of the 3 of them, Thor was the first one to accept the soup. Oh how the tables have turned.
On what may seem like a completely random side note, I want to stop giving them these icky Marshalls treats. A while back, before I joined hff, I thought I saw something about making your own natural treats. Time to do some forum browsing.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Jul 30, 2014 8:53:32 GMT -5
Don't overthink the menu... I made that mistake. Just take the sample format and fill in the blanks. For example:
Sun AM: organ meal (chicken liver/pork stomach) Sun PM: edible bone-in meat (chicken wing)
Mon AM: edible bone-in meat (chicken wing) Mon PM: edible bone-in meat (chicken wing)
Tues AM: heart (chicken heart) Tues PM: edible bone-in meat (chicken wing)
And so on... I've only put chicken & wings in there for now because that's what they're eating, but you need to make a GOAL menu.. what you want them to be eating in a few weeks. That's what we'll be working toward with them.
With Thor and the hearts, it may be the texture that is the issue. The texture of heart and organ tissue is quite different from muscle tissue. But if she tried them, maybe next time she'll eat them more willingly. Did you mix her hearts with some muscle meat? That may help her accept them better.
Natural treats.. You can make your own jerky by drying the meat in an oven. Cut the meat in thin strips, NO SEASONING!!!, drape them directly on the oven rack with a tray underneath to catch the drippings, and cook them on 200 until they're dried out, 2-3 hours depending on how chewy you want them to be. They'll keep in the refrigerator for several weeks.
|
|
trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
|
Post by trutan85 on Jul 30, 2014 20:08:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip on the jerky, I'll have to give it a go when I get the chance.
I didn't try mixing it with anything else, I may have to give it a go. I didn't get much chance to watch her this morning, what little I did catch was she'd focus on a heart, and Loki would steal it from her. I'll feed her separately from the boys tonight to make sure she gets a chance, she hasn't learned that she needs to be quick around Loki.
When coming up with my menu, should I just make it a frankenprey goal menu, or should I try and figure out whole prey. I ask because my ultimate goal in the end is to get them on a whole prey diet. I realize that whole prey kind of complicates things in regards to a frankenprey menu.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Jul 31, 2014 9:34:43 GMT -5
Aww.. poor Thor, getting her heart stolen, lol.
I didn't realize you wanted to do whole prey. I'm sorry I somehow missed that information. It doesn't really complicate the issue, just changes it a little, but it's not a problem. Have you located a source for whole prey already? If not, you need to do that and get some whole prey in the house. They're already eating bones, so now's as good a time as any to start with the prey.
If you're doing entirely whole prey, you don't need to worry about balance so much, just variety. If you're doing a combination of whole prey and frankenprey, the frankenprey meals will depend on how many meals of prey you're doing. We figure 14 meals per week... 10% of those meals should be heart, 10% should be organ. So if you're doing 4 whole prey meals that leaves 10 frankenprey meals. 10% of 10 meals is 1, so you would feed 1 heart meal and 1 organ meal. Make sense? I picked 4 ONLY because it makes the percents easy; you can re-figure for however many whole prey meals you want to serve.
|
|
trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
|
Post by trutan85 on Jul 31, 2014 17:59:21 GMT -5
Mice would be one source of whole prey, I'm still deliberating on what else I would want in the menu. I'm going to look around to see what I can find. I hear rabbit is a popular choice. I will continue my research to see what some good whole prey sources are.
I actually picked up some pinkies today. I know they have no nutritional value, and are more viable only as treats. However I figure they'll be the easiest way to give them the taste and I can work up through sizes to the nutritional adults.
And the winner of the pinkies will surprise you, it was Thor. I tried her last, the boys were quite determined to not ingest anything of the pinkies. Thor handled them like a champ, for the boys I think I'm going to have to mix them with other meats so I can get them to take a nibble.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Jul 31, 2014 19:33:09 GMT -5
Well, good for Thor. You found something she really likes! You just never know about ferrets, lol. You're right that the pinkies are not complete nutritionally, but as a treat, they're great. As with everything else in fuzzy feeding, you want variety in ages of prey... So some adult, some young, some babies. That will cover all the bases and insure that they get everything they need.
Mice are good starter prey for sure. They're fairly easy to find and they're inexpensive. They're also a good serving size. Rabbits are actually fairly low on the nutritional scale. They're a white meat, so not as much taurine, not as much fat. Don't get me wrong, they're fine to feed. I just want you to be aware that they're not as nutritious as most people think. You do need to try to get at least one bird in the menu. Quail is pretty popular with whole prey feeders. Cavies are also... Not birds, but popular. One thing I will suggest is that you continue to feed grocery store meats once in a while so they stay familiar with the taste. You never know when your prey supply might suddenly dry up for some reason and you don't want to be left with nothing to feed them.
Often, to get them started on the prey, you'll have to chop them up (yuck) and mix them with already accepted meats. But before you do that, try slitting them open and drizzling a little oil on them. That may get them started so they realize it's food. Do you have mice for them yet or just the pinkies? Another thing, new prey eaters don't know how to remove the unwanted parts neatly yet, so they may be very messy to begin with.
|
|
trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
|
Post by trutan85 on Jul 31, 2014 20:44:44 GMT -5
I have read that quail is popular among ferrets, I'll definitely see if I can source it. How about fish, is that something worth looking into or is that a ferret no no?
I only picked up pinkies, I wasn't sure how they would take to the larger mice. I tried mice once in the past, before I really understood or even started the raw feeding process, which of course they just went to waste. I liked the idea of trying the pinkies to see where they stood, and since Thor was into it, I'm curious to see how far she'd go. It's possible I might get a better reaction from the boys with something larger, but I think I'll have to work with them some before they accept it on their own. Cutting up mice is probably as exciting for me as it would be for you, but I'm prepared to do so if that's what it takes. Do you think I should try with adult mice? I can always try the oil method or mixing it with other meat.
I'm sure it goes without saying, even on whole prey, they need at least 3 different proteins, and it's perfectly fine to do more. I'll come up with a menu that includes mice but fill in the rest as frankenprey, this way I have a menu that includes an easily accessible whole prey but compensates for the event of not being able to get my hands on other whole prey foods. This way if/when this problem occurs I'll have an appropriate backup plan. When doing a complete whole prey diet, would it be appropriate to just rotate out every meal. For example:
Sunday am: mice Sunday pm: quail
Monday am: rabbit Monday pm: mice
Etc.
I realize rabbit, and probably quail too, are larger than mice and would equate to more than one meal, I just wanted a quick example of what I meant.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Jul 31, 2014 21:08:24 GMT -5
Fish, yes! I forgot about fish. I remember something about certain fish.. maybe that they like better or can't eat or something??? Let me check on that and I'll get back to you with more information.
I would definitely try adult mice, and for sure try just slitting them open before you go to the work of chopping them up. I would imagine that the adults taste different than the pinkies (but of course since I've never eaten either I don't know for sure) so hopefully the boys will like them better. I know some ferrets seem to like the heads and tails and others leave both head and tail. One seemingly universal dislike is stomach and intestines, so be prepared to have those... well, pretty much anywhere. I've heard of them splattered over the walls, dragged down hallways and dropped on the floor... With larger prey than a mouse (think cavie-size), a lot of people will disembowel before serving. I guess that's less gross than finding them on the bathroom floor in the middle of the night. There's a good how-to video somewhere I'll find for you.
ummm... other whole prey - frogs, lizards, birds of any kind. Do you hunt? Or know any hunters? Wild game can be fed if it's frozen for 36 hours. It has to be solid for those 36 hours, so to take into account the time it takes to get solid, we usually say 3-4 full days minimum.
OK, off to find the video and check on fish...
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Jul 31, 2014 21:10:39 GMT -5
|
|
trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
|
Post by trutan85 on Jul 31, 2014 21:30:36 GMT -5
I typed up an edit in my last post I wanted to add, the forum didn't show me you had posted until after I had it typed up and saved it.
Frogs and lizards? I did not realize ferrets would eat such things. While I'm thinking about it, are rats considered the same protein as mice or are they different?
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Jul 31, 2014 23:46:55 GMT -5
Fish... avoid large predator fish (like tuna) because of mercury levels. Small fish (smelt, sardines) can be fed whole. In-between fish should probably be gutted. Freshly caught fish are considered wild game and should be frozen. Smarty-pants mentor said you should probably avoid electric eel and puffer fish. Yes, when making a whole prey menu, just rotate the proteins. I've read that frogs are actually a large part of a wild ferret's diet. They'll eat anything that's meat, including insects. Rats and mice are different proteins.
|
|
trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
|
Post by trutan85 on Aug 1, 2014 9:43:36 GMT -5
I would've never imagined that. I was checking on hare-today's website for whole prey available. I can get frozen mice and rats from the local pet store. And once they get in the swing of mice, I have plans on breeding feeder mice on my own. Hare-today sells rabbits, quail, and guinea pigs (didn't realize they were also called cavies). They are close to me, not sure how close because I don't know exactly where they are located, but I made a sample cart to see what shipping was like and it listed 1-day ground. Both them and myself are in western Pa so it's definitely a plus. This minimizes the risk of thawing and the wait for receiving their meals.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Aug 1, 2014 11:04:42 GMT -5
While the search for whole prey continues, how are they doing with their hearts and bone-in meats? Have you tried a liver meal yet?
|
|
trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
|
Post by trutan85 on Aug 1, 2014 11:56:20 GMT -5
I tried giving them a liver/kidney meal today, I even threw a couple hearts for good measure. They targeted the hearts and gave the kidney a funny look. Since they had such a long energetic morning, after the hearts were gone, they went to sleep. I left it available for when they wake up.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Aug 1, 2014 13:03:48 GMT -5
lol, yep, they'll go for those hearts every time, which is why we try NOT to mix their hearts and organs. We need to make sure they all get the proper amount of the organs.
|
|