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Post by gfountain on Jul 27, 2014 16:10:54 GMT -5
LOLOLOLOL!!!!! No need to apologize!! Weird as it is, that's a lovely sight to me! It means your fuzzies are well on their way to healthier! I can't tell what part of the wing that is though. It looks like the middle section, so does that mean they ate the whole tip section and joint, or does that mean your wings don't have the tip section? Those 2 little bones sticking out.. Those are the ones you can cut lengthwise if you're careful. As far as giving them each their own, that's up to you. It really depends on how well they share. And on how much they're eating. You don't want to have a lot of waste. When I buy a package of wings, I cut all of them into thirds and repackage them with 2 of each section together so I can serve them each the same thing... because otherwise they fight over the tips. Something you can do to help with the stashing attempts is to hook the pieces to the cage (assuming you feed them in the cage). Those old-fashioned metal shower curtain hooks are perfect for that. I'm so proud of Clyde and Loki!!! And even little Thor for at least tasting it!
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trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
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Post by trutan85 on Jul 27, 2014 16:55:40 GMT -5
That is the middle section, I had to refresh my memory on how much was there. The tip section was there, so this means that they ate the whole tip, the joint and were getting into the meatier middle section.
Loki got to the wing first, I was impressed with his reaction. There appeared to be no hesitation, a quick sniff then right onto the wing tip. Only a few seconds later I heard the bone crunching and when he dropped it for a moment I could see he was eating it.
In retrospect I think Thor wanted to give it a go, but it was a heated battle between her and Loki. She'd get it pried away and he'd steal it back. I may section them so they don't fight over the tip, I especially want to give Thor some time with the tip so I can see if she'll at least break up and eat the smaller bones.
I've seen others using the shower curtain hooks for hooking food, they'll come in handy for future feedings.
I am surprised at how fast they are progressing. They've only been off kibble for a week, and have had no soup for a few days. Now they are eating bones, they aren't huge bones, but I know they can do it. It'll be amazing once they get their jaw strength up, I can't wait. I thought it would take so long to get to this point. I think the biggest hurdle was for them to recognize it as food and not something tasty to lick, they seem to display more exuberance when they get their meals now.
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Post by gfountain on Jul 27, 2014 17:26:14 GMT -5
Yayyyy!!! They ate A LOT! They really are moving fast. And you're right, the biggest hurdle is to get them to recognize the raw as food. So many ferrents never get past that point, because they give up after a few days of ferret dramatics. So I'm proud of you too for sticking it out! The next major hurdle is getting them to eat bones, and they're already doing well with that. So yayy again! The last big hurdle is getting them to accept organs as a whole meal. Once they've got bones and organs down, then it's just a matter of introducing new proteins and creating a balanced menu. Go ahead and give them the wings for a couple more meals, but watch Thor to make sure she's really eating them and not just eating the meat off of them. Let's give them a couple of days with the bones, then we'll start with organs and hearts. The kidney might be a hard sell.. my kids will eat it reluctantly, but only after a couple of hours when they decide I'm not giving them anything else. Slinkee has taken to trying to stash it.. I think he thinks if I don't see it in the dish, I'll think he ate it and give him something else, lol. The stomach I don't know about.. I've never tried to feed mine stomach.
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trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
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Post by trutan85 on Jul 27, 2014 17:50:45 GMT -5
It seems like their personalities shine through a little more when you drop the kibble and go raw. It's amazing how they formulate opinions on what you feed them. It will be interesting to see how they take to the organs and hearts I got them. The stomach will be interesting to say the least, they are large, 2 of them weighed in at about 3 lbs. What I am unclear on is if that's considered organ or muscle, hopefully you can tell me. This will be important so I can properly serve it in their diet.
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Post by gfountain on Jul 27, 2014 19:29:06 GMT -5
Stomach is an organ meat. About organs... a lot of the body parts that we consider 'organs' anatomically are not considered organ meat nutritionally. The definition of a NUTRITIONAL ORGAN MEAT is 'a major hormone-secreting tissue'. So although things like hearts, gizzards, lungs are very healthy to feed, they are not considered an organ meat because they don't secrete hormones.
Nutritional organs: liver, kidney, brain, spleen, pancreas, gallbladder, reproductive organs, stomach, intestines, and I'm sure there are others that I'm forgetting.
A note about tripe (generally cow stomach).. White tripe has had all the nutrients bleached out of it and should NOT be fed. Green tripe is high in nutrients but it smells horrid and most ferrets won't go near it, so really not worth the money or hassle.
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trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
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Post by trutan85 on Jul 27, 2014 21:48:15 GMT -5
I was hands on with Thor tonight. She was a little reluctant with the wing, not very surprising. Loki had made his way to the tips I brought up, so it was tricky to track Thor's progress. I managed to convince her to give it a go. I could hear the bones crunching as she chewed on the part of the tip section that was remaining. At first it looked like she was just chewing on it, but as she went it appeared she was actually consuming it. It's still taking longer for her to chew, but I trust she'll get better at it as her jaw gets stronger.
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Post by gfountain on Jul 28, 2014 8:10:20 GMT -5
Good for Thor!! Her poops should tell you for sure if she consumed it or not. If she ate the bone, her poops will be firmer. She'll start eating faster if she finds that the boys are eating her share, lol.
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trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
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Post by trutan85 on Jul 28, 2014 21:37:22 GMT -5
I was treated to actually watching them eat tonight. I gave the boys a wing to share in the cage and gave Thor her own in a make shift feeding box out of the cage. The boys dove in, Loki was on the tip and Clyde was on the thick end, I was amazed to see them sharing. Thor looked at hers like she was trying to figure it out, I flipped it over so the tip was pointing up, she took it from there. She is still playing catch up, but it was a nice chance to actually see her progress.
The one on the left is what the boys had, Thor had the one on the right. She definitely is eating the smaller bones and I'm quite pleased with her progress despite being behind.
I became quite proud while watching them eat.
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Post by gfountain on Jul 28, 2014 22:45:52 GMT -5
Awww... proud papa! I love it!
It looks like Thor did a great job with hers. She's catching up nicely! They're not going to make too much progress on the bone in that largest section yet, especially near the joint, unless you cut it for them. The three of them ate 2 1/2 sections of the wing, so in order to not have a lot of waste, I'd separate one wing and give each of them one section per meal, alternating who gets the choicest piece.. the tip. Just cut Thor's bone for her if she doesn't get the tip end. And whatever they don't eat immediately can be left in the cage for them for snacking on. Bone-in meats are safe for 12 hours or more and a lot of ferrets prefer their meat to be a little 'old'. I think my kids eat the most during the night, so leave it overnight for them and see if they finish it.
How are their poops now that they're eating bone?
The next step is going to be introducing organs, hearts, and new proteins. You've got chicken livers and hearts, so we'll start with those while you pick out a new protein to start on. Turkey is usually pretty well accepted, as well as duck and quail. Beef is pretty strong, and usually takes more work to convince them to eat, but it is a good red meat. Mine especially like cow tongue, which has the added benefit of being high in taurine. Pork is usually accepted pretty well. Whatever you decide on, go for the fattier cuts. Not only are they healthier for the fuzzies, they're usually cheaper! One of my local grocery stores sells super cheap 'dog cuts' which basically are any parts that a human wouldn't want to bother with. The bones are almost always way too big for the ferrets to consume, but there's quite a bit of meat on them and Minnie likes to chew on the bones.
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trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
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Post by trutan85 on Jul 29, 2014 18:10:59 GMT -5
Poops have gotten solid again. Seeing what I would believe to be undigested skin and fats. They are brown, green, and a blend of the 2.
Should I serve both the liver and hearts together or should I serve just the hearts to prevent them from eating just the livers?
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Post by gfountain on Jul 29, 2014 18:54:31 GMT -5
Undigested fats will look almost like sesame seeds. Larger pieces could also be bone.
They all seem like they're more willing to try new things now, so why don't you try just giving them the hearts by themselves and see if they like them. If not, mix them with a muscle meat, not liver at this point. They can overdose on liver, so you have to be careful how much of that they get.
You said they all eat liver already, right? Will they eat a whole meal of JUST liver, or do they still need it mixed with something else?
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trutan85
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Thor still "beats up" her bigger younger brother.
Posts: 192
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Post by trutan85 on Jul 29, 2014 19:24:36 GMT -5
I may regret these words later, I'm fairly certain the boys would have no issues with a pure liver meal. They've had it, they know it, and from what I've seen with them lately, I see no issues. Thor could go either way, I've seen her eat it, and she may do fine with an all liver meal. However, I think she's become notorious for being finicky, so for her I'd say it's a try it and see situation.
Even though the soup had hearts in it, I'm not sure how much of that heart flavor comes through. If I had to guess, it's barely noticeable, if even at all. I do agree with you, it seems they're more willing to try something new. Eating those skin covered boney wing tips showed that, never had them before but giving them a go anyways.
Also I left the wings in there longer, I read ferrets won't eat meat that's bad, is this true? Anyways, as I was saying, the one wing practically picked clean, all that was remaining was part of the middle and bottom section bone.
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Post by gfountain on Jul 29, 2014 21:36:16 GMT -5
You are correct.. ferrets won't eat meat that's bad. Bone-in meats, like the wing, stay 'safe' for 12-24 hours, depending on several factors including the size of the piece and the ambient temperature. Although they wouldn't be safe for a human to eat, ferrets are made to handle higher bacterial loads than we are and their digestive tract is short so the bacteria don't have time to set up camp in there. Meat goes through a few stages.. the 'safe' period, then a period of several hours or even a couple of days when it's greasy and STINKY, then finally it turns into 'ferret jerky'. That middle, stinky greasy stage is when most of us have to throw it out because it's just gross, but a ferret knows not to eat it during that stage. And if you can stand it (or if Thor stashes some and you miss it) it becomes a favorite treat and is safe to eat again. Gross, I know. This does NOT apply to soups or grinds, btw. Soups are generally good for 6-8 hours, grinds for 8-12, but those you should generally judge by your own sense of smell. As a rule, if a ferret is eating something, it's not too far gone.
I'm thinking that they've had 2 or 3 bone-in meals in a row now. Is that correct? Let's make the next couple of meals about liking hearts. Try just giving them each part of a heart. If we're lucky and they like them, go ahead and give an entire meal of heart. If they don't like them, mix them with some muscle meat and again, increase the heart/muscle meat ratio until they learn to like the hearts. Expect looser, possibly tarry dark poops after they eat heart. Let me know how it goes. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!
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Post by gfountain on Jul 29, 2014 21:43:34 GMT -5
We'll do hearts for a couple of meals if necessary to get them to like it, then some more bone-in, then work on liver, then start adding other proteins. They're moving pretty fast, so you need to start thinking about making a weekly menu in the format I gave you on the first page of this thread. You'll need 3 proteins, preferably one of them a red meat, and the menu should include the following: 1 1/2 meals of heart 1 1/2 meals of organ, half will be liver, half other organ -ooh, I forgot you have stomach. yay. 7-9 meals of bone-in 2-4 meals of muscle meat Not as hard as it first seems, I promise. Figure out what proteins you have available that you want to feed, and try to find some bone-in stuff besides chicken wings, and we'll go from there.
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Post by gfountain on Jul 29, 2014 21:59:24 GMT -5
Example of ferrets being weird (and on the topic on meat going bad), I gave my kids a chicken back early this morning. They didn't want it. They've run in and out of the cage all day checking to see what was in the dish and they've turned their noses up at it every time. Fine.. I'm sure they're hungry, but the food's there if they want it and I'm trying my best to not spoil them by giving them their favorite food every time they ask (it's really hard, too, because they're expert beggars). So just now, they come begging again. That back has been there all day, so I figured I'll get them some fresh food for the night and give that old piece to the dog. The phone rang while I was changing the food so I hooked the new piece in beside the old one and went to answer the phone. I went back, and guess which one Slinkee is eating.. the old one! I guess after 14 hours, it's finally 'done enough'. (headwall)
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