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Post by racheld on Jun 4, 2014 20:57:42 GMT -5
Good news - He ate 2.3oz today, PLUS about half a meat cube that I forgot to weigh before I fed him. He's gonna turn into a chubber! Bad news - Had to spoon feed it all to him. He's still not very into the whole 'not being babied' thing.
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Post by katt on Jun 4, 2014 23:27:39 GMT -5
I haven't ordered from MPC because I was going to wait until they do a drop off in my area, which would be June 26th. I was going to get fine ground whole rabbit and coarse ground whole rabbit--that's a novel protein for him (pork isn't, he had it last time we tried raw feeding). Now that I'm looking, they also have pig heart/liver, so I may order some of that too if he takes to pig. I was looking for the thread with different poop pictures to make a comparison but can't find one. His poops are small and dark (not black, but dark brown). They're sticky and they aren't formed but they aren't soft enough to qualify as diarhea or anything. His activity level seems okay. Definitely lower than before the switch, but I wonder if prednisolone can cause an energy drop. Would taurine powder be found at nutrition/vitamin stores, or would I have to order that online? And if I have pork liver/heart coming on the 26th, would muscle meat with taurine powder be okay until then? When I order from MPC, about how many pounds of meat should I plan on needing for a month? I was about to address your first post but got called away to do something, I'll get back to it but first hing first.... lol Rabbit is actually a GREAT meat to feed IBD ferrets in my experience. It is super rare for them to react to rabbit - maybe bc they have been raised on it for so long as a domesticated species. Who knows. Anyways, the big thing about rabbit is it is super lean, it has next to zero fat and next to zero taurine (even in the hearts believe it or not). Fat is super important for ferrets as it is their primary energy source. Pork on the other hand is very fatty and often fatty pork cuts are used to help fatten up skinny fuzz. So, with all of that in mind, I think that moving him to a pork+taurine soup and ordering the rabbit plus pork heart and organs in the meanwhile and we can start to test those out once they arrive. His poops definitely sound like he has some ulcers IMO - he could be reacting to the chicken, so it is worth testing (but pred can also cause ulcers). Chicken poops should be paler, not almost black, and if he is getting enough bone or calcium supplement (eggshell, bonemeal) his poops should be firmer. Softer poops on soups are normal, but they should still be somewhat formed. The dark color really makes me suspect that he has a gastric ulcer. Digested blood is dark in color (red blood is typically from the colon or anus - it hasn't been digested and thus is still somewhat fresh). Next time you get a fairly fresh poop grab it and put it on a white paper towel and let it sit for a few minutes - maybe 10-20 min. If there is blood in the stool, you should see some of it get wicked into the paper towel. Bob Church taught me this trick. Anyways, I wouldn't assume that if there isn't blood on the towel there isn't blood in the poop, but if there is it is a good indicator of blood in the stool. That sentence is a mess..... I hope that made sense. LOL Running on 2 hours of sleep right now, so if I seem disorganized or nonsensical you know why. Pred shouldn't cause a decrease in energy as far as I know BUT it CAN cause ulcers. So while I still think we need to try a new protein, it is possible that pred is the suspect and not the chicken. I would like to get him off of chicken ASAP, and get the ulcers treated by the vet (will get back to this), and we can test chicken again later once he feels a bit better. When could you get some pork meat? As soon as you can I would load up on pork (pork chops work great, but any pork cut you can find that isn't cured, treated, salted is fine). I would like to see how receptive he is to switching to pork cold turkey (or should I say cold pork? (giggle) ), so let's plan on starting with a pork puree for now. Pork and water and taurine. And we can get back to slivers as soon as we get him eating pork. Getting him OFF of chicken is my top priority right now diet wise, just in case that is contributing. Mouth Ulcers, dark stools (very likely gastric ulcers), low energy....not good. Obviously with him having insu we need to make sure he will eat. I would offer the pork puree on your finger and see what he thinks. If he will take it, we can switch him to pork puree but if not, then we can start slowly mixing the pork into some chicken soup until we get him up to pork. Taurine should be in the health supplements part of many stores, or if you have like a natural foods/supplements store, or maybe somewhere like GNC. You can also find it online: www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Taurine-1000Mg-100-Capsules/dp/B0019LRYD0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1401941110&sr=8-1&keywords=taurinewww.amazon.com/Foods-Taurine-Pure-Powder-ounce/dp/B000BQSQ68/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1401941110&sr=8-4&keywords=taurineOkay the ulcers...you should talk to your vet about Pred causing the ulcers as that is common. Talking to Heather and Sherry who have more experience with pred and it sounds like the typical ulcer treatments help, but never long term. Colloidal Silver, carafate, antibiotics, etc. Also, is Remus adrenal that you know of? Blow on his fur and see if you notice if the skin is easily visible underneath his guard hairs. Does he have any fur thinning? Excessive (more than usual) itching? As long as his BG is under control with the pred I would ask your vet about getting Remus a Des implant. He is of the age to be adrenal, and that can contribute to some of the symptoms he is having too. "Worst" case if he isn't AD, it won't hurt him and you can do yearly as a preventive, and "best" case it really helps him. Treating AD in insu ferrets can be tricky though as often AD causes an artificial increase in BG, so treating it can cause the BG To drop. This can be dangerous if the ferret's BG isn't under control, but as long as he is under control then controlling the AD should actually help to control the insu to some degree too. There is a definite interplay between the 2 diseases when they are both present and most people find that controlling AD helps with the insu. I would discuss this with your vet and see what he thinks of doing Des or even a Lupron trial (MUST do no less than 3 months of 1 month injections, the 3 month single shot is worthless and any less than 3 months of Lupron causes a hormone surge that is counterproductive). Des is better, but it might be best to see how his BG reacts to Lupron first and if he does okay after a few Lupron shots, then go for the Des. You should also discuss the pred possibly causing the ulcers (the more I think about it the more I think this is probably even more likely than chicken allergy - Heather had a good point too that allergies don't typically cause mouth ulcers though Koda has gotten allergy related GI ulcers), and ask the vet what he could give you to treat the ulcers - maybe a little ongoing treatment since they are recurrent. Some carafate or something (though that will decrease his nutrient absorption)... How long has Remus been on pred?
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Post by katt on Jun 4, 2014 23:31:41 GMT -5
[Good boy on eating today. We will definitely focus on weaning him off of hand feeding, but with the complete protein change coming up I suspect he's going to ask for a little more babying. I have today off so I'll do some searching for pork and pork liver/heart, and maybe other meat sources. Last time I tried the transition it was kind of tricky to find anything like that, though. MyPetCarnivore does dropoffs about twenty minutes from my house so I can order fine ground and rough ground rabbit and maybe some other proteins to try with him. The next dropoff isn't until 6/26 though.Do a google search in your area for Asian, Halal, and Ethnic markets as well as butchers. You might be surprised. Ethnic markets carry outstandingly bizarre meats. lol In google search for example: "Asian Market, Anchorage, AK" or whatever your city/state is. He's been on a chicken soup (more like a pudding texture) that's probably about 40% chunks and 60% soupThat is great, hopefully it won't take him long to get back up to that point with pork.
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Post by racheld on Jun 5, 2014 13:46:14 GMT -5
Haha I'm going to try to categorize things to give you some semblance of order.
Pork I made pork soup today--sort of pudding texture, maybe a bit thinner. He took to it pretty well. I was able to spoon feed him 10g the first time I tried, so hopefully I'll be able to get him on some slivers soon. Should I focus on getting him to eat independently in the cage before I worry about moving up to slivers and chunks?
Taurine I brought taurine home today, but I didn't mix it in when I first offered him pork--I thought he should get a taste for it first before I start adding things. I will add it in tomorrow though. The capsules are 500mg, so he would need half a capsule each day, right?
Ulcers I'm doing the poop test right now, and it does look like something is wicking into the paper towel. I have colloidal silver here that I could use to start treating--do you know what a good dosage would be? And if I take him to the vet for ulcers, what sort of medication should I ask for? I don't think that the pred would be the cause, since mouth ulcers have been a consistent problem and I've been making sure to feed him before he gets pred like most sources advise.
Adrenal Remus does have thin fur around his shoulders--when I blow on them I can see his skin, like you said. He doesn't seem to have rat tail or anything, though. He WAS itchy but putting him on benadryl stopped that, and he had been weirdly itchy since I brought him home two years ago. So I'm not really convinced he has adrenal, but if there's a test for it I would be glad to get him checked. (Part of it will depend on cost, too, unfortunately, but I'm trying not to think about that.)
MPC I think when I make my order with MPC I'll order ground pig, pig heart, and pig liver, and also ground whole rabbit (some fine ground to start and then coarse ground to move on to). What would you suggest as a third protein? If chicken does turn out to be the problem, should I stay away from other poultry as well?
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Post by racheld on Jun 5, 2014 13:48:36 GMT -5
I knew I'd forget something--is it still okay to give ferretone when we're trying an elimination diet?
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Post by racheld on Jun 5, 2014 13:55:39 GMT -5
I started looking at IBD threads and saw that lamb or goat are usually good ones, I'll check those out. I just worry about him getting enough bone with those three proteins--are there any bones in rabbit that ferrets can crunch?
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Post by katt on Jun 5, 2014 18:29:56 GMT -5
Haha I'm going to try to categorize things to give you some semblance of order.Perfect! I have had some sleep now too so hopefully I'll make a bit more sense today. haha Pork I made pork soup today--sort of pudding texture, maybe a bit thinner. He took to it pretty well. I was able to spoon feed him 10g the first time I tried, so hopefully I'll be able to get him on some slivers soon. Should I focus on getting him to eat independently in the cage before I worry about moving up to slivers and chunks?
Good boy! And yes, let's try to get him eating on his own before moving to the next step. We will probably end up going back and forth between hand feeding and cage feeding honestly. Insu ferrets are almost always the pickiest ferrets (go figure) so what I find happens is we get them eating on their own (which is super important bc we need to make sure they will eat during the day/night so they don't crash) and then we start to move forward and have to do some hand feeding to convince them that the new thing we are trying isn't going to kill them...then wean off of hand feeding, etc etc. It does slow things down a bit but other than with super stubborn fuzz not quite as much as you might think. With insu ferrets though slow and steady wins the race! Making sure they are eating enough and often enough to keep BG up is the number one priority. Taurine I brought taurine home today, but I didn't mix it in when I first offered him pork--I thought he should get a taste for it first before I start adding things. I will add it in tomorrow though. The capsules are 500mg, so he would need half a capsule each day, right?500mg per ferret per day. Though someone was recently saying they really don't need that much. You'd have to do some serious work to OD them on taurine though. It is water soluble so any extra they will just pee out. The best thing is to split the dose up over the day, so I would do half a capsule in his am meal and half in the pm. The body can only absorb so much at once, so it helps to spread it out a little. Ulcers I'm doing the poop test right now, and it does look like something is wicking into the paper towel. I have colloidal silver here that I could use to start treating--do you know what a good dosage would be? And if I take him to the vet for ulcers, what sort of medication should I ask for? I don't think that the pred would be the cause, since mouth ulcers have been a consistent problem and I've been making sure to feed him before he gets pred like most sources advise.Any chance you could get a pic? If you see something wicking though that is blood colored (red, black, brown, rust...) then chances are it is blood. And actually even with feeding meals before pred can still cause ulcers. I was talking to Sherry and Heather and they both agreed that many, if not most-all, ferrets eventually get ulcers on pred. And yes, pred can and does cause mouth ulcers. - How long has he been on pred now? - When did the ulcers first start? Adrenal Remus does have thin fur around his shoulders--when I blow on them I can see his skin, like you said. He doesn't seem to have rat tail or anything, though. He WAS itchy but putting him on benadryl stopped that, and he had been weirdly itchy since I brought him home two years ago. So I'm not really convinced he has adrenal, but if there's a test for it I would be glad to get him checked. (Part of it will depend on cost, too, unfortunately, but I'm trying not to think about that.)The test is to try treatment. Honestly at his age his chances of being adrenal are very high, and if he has thinning of the fur on his shoulders that is a VERY strong indicator to me that he is adrenal. I would very much recommend taking him into your vet to get some Lupron and then Des. Ferrets do not all present the same way with adrenal - he does nto have to have rat tail. Koda was diagnosed adrenal at 18 months - his ONLY symptom was sexual aggression and itching. And he was so young I never realized that just how much he was itching was abnormal, but once he was treated he became much less itchy (though ferrets are always itchy critters). Once we started treating him, his IBD amazingly came under much better control. IBD and adrenal are very much linked - they often go hand in hand. Untreated adrenal can and WILL Eventually get out of control. It will progress even with treatment (though much, much more slowly and they will have great symptom relief) but without treatment it will progress much quicker and eventually get to the point where it is not able to be controlled. Ferrets tend to leave for the Rainbow Bridge not long after that. MPC I think when I make my order with MPC I'll order ground pig, pig heart, and pig liver, and also ground whole rabbit (some fine ground to start and then coarse ground to move on to). What would you suggest as a third protein? If chicken does turn out to be the problem, should I stay away from other poultry as well?Not necessarily. Some ferrets have poultry allergies but more often than not it's just one bird. What other meats can you get from MPC or locally? Goat and lamb are good, duck is great and rarely an allergen, guinea pig is good (ground or whole). We will definitely give other poultries a try, and we will retest chicken at some point too to confirm if he really has an allergy or not.
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Post by katt on Jun 5, 2014 18:32:16 GMT -5
I started looking at IBD threads and saw that lamb or goat are usually good ones, I'll check those out. I just worry about him getting enough bone with those three proteins--are there any bones in rabbit that ferrets can crunch? Yes rabbit bones are perfectly sized for ferrets. They are similar to chicken bones. As mentioned above though, we will be giving other poultry a shot too.
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Post by katt on Jun 5, 2014 18:47:28 GMT -5
I knew I'd forget something--is it still okay to give ferretone when we're trying an elimination diet? No. Not to mention it has sugar in it which is extra bad for a ferret with insulinoma. Unless you absolutely HAVE to use it to give him his meds or something, I would avoid using 'tone entirely.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2014 23:19:08 GMT -5
this is Katt performing a test
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Post by racheld on Jun 6, 2014 0:07:33 GMT -5
He's been on Pred since May 19th. I'm not sure about the ulcers--his poops have looked that way since I took him off kibble, which would have been probably May 22nd. I don't know if I can pass meds without ferretone or some kind of oil treat. I'll start looking for something to switch to, coconut oil or olive oil or something.
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Post by katt on Jun 6, 2014 0:19:38 GMT -5
Try fish or salmon oil. It is very good for them and my boys LOVE it. EVOO is good too. The timing with pred and raw are too close together to know what's what, though I'd think an ulcer wouldn't form that quickly. An allergy could though. Hopefully getting him off chicken will solve the issue then. If not, then it may be the pred. You can give a few drops of CS in the water. Honestly though I would consider asking your vet to treat the ulcers as soon as we get chicken out of his diet entirely UNLESS they go away within a few days. Simply because ulcers frequently need to be treated, and we really need to get that inflammation down. Treatment for ulcers is typically "Triple Therapy" of amoxicillin, metronidazole, and sucralfate (carafate). The metro tastes like death though and is very stressful to give so if he responds to colloidal silver plus removing chicken, then that would be great.
Do you have a way to spray the CS? If so, try scruffing him until he yawns and spritzing the CS into his mouth where the ulcer is. You can add a few drops in his water every day, just be sure to change the water daily.
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Post by racheld on Jun 6, 2014 2:51:53 GMT -5
I will look for salmon/fish oil, I've inly ever seen capsules though and a bottle of it would be way preferable. I don't think I have a spritzer...last time I treated ulcers with CS I was advised to do... .5mL twice a day I believe? Would that be okay? The soonest I can get him in to the vet is Monday or Tuesday, I will set an appointment for then to talk to him about lupron and about ulcers if Remus' poops don't look better.
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Post by racheld on Jun 6, 2014 7:42:31 GMT -5
A few things before I go to bed... This morning Remus seems like himself for the first time since the diagnosis. He was actually engaging me in play and did a bit of war dancing. It was a huge relief to see and it seems like a pretty solid indicator that chicken has been the culprit. His poops are still the same, but I'll keep an eye on them. Instead of just diluting with ferretone this morning I did .4 pred, .2 water, and .2 ferretone. I'll keep seeing how much I can replace the ferretone with water and have him take it without stressing while I look for fish/salmon oil. He's still being pretty weird about eating. He does great from the spoon--he was eating chunks like a champ when I still had him on the chicken mix. But if I set him down, as soon as he gets anything in his mouth he runs off as if he has a piece that's too big for his liking. It's really strange and makes having him feed on the floor *really* frustrating. Any advice?
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Post by racheld on Jun 6, 2014 16:06:53 GMT -5
His appetite seems to be increasing too. He's had 64g so far today and it's only 5pm here. I'm feeling super positive today.
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