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Post by katt on Jun 7, 2014 16:48:59 GMT -5
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Post by katt on Jun 7, 2014 17:00:48 GMT -5
A few things before I go to bed... This morning Remus seems like himself for the first time since the diagnosis. He was actually engaging me in play and did a bit of war dancing. It was a huge relief to see and it seems like a pretty solid indicator that chicken has been the culprit. His poops are still the same, but I'll keep an eye on them.That is great! Im glad to hear is appetite is improving too. Hopefully you start to see some improvement in his poops. Have you started adding the taurine to the blended pork? How is he doing eating the pork? Is he eating it 100% plain (no chicken mixed in), and will he eat it on his own or only hand fed? Instead of just diluting with ferretone this morning I did .4 pred, .2 water, and .2 ferretone. I'll keep seeing how much I can replace the ferretone with water and have him take it without stressing while I look for fish/salmon oil. He's still being pretty weird about eating. He does great from the spoon--he was eating chunks like a champ when I still had him on the chicken mix. But if I set him down, as soon as he gets anything in his mouth he runs off as if he has a piece that's too big for his liking. It's really strange and makes having him feed on the floor *really* frustrating. Any advice? It is very natural for them to run off with food and stash it. Do you have a feeding den? They are very cheap and easy to make and really help to reduce mess and stashing. It wont eliminate either, but will reduce it. Get a rubbermaid bin and a can of peaches. Empty the peach can, remove the label, and rinse and dry the can. Put the can on a stove burner open side down and let it get hot. USE AN OVEN MITT! When it gets hot, take the can and quickly push it against the side of the bin (I find that turning the can helps push it through). You may have to do this twice. Then Voila! A feeding den with a nice perfectly ferret sized hole! The 4' diamater peach cans are the perfect size for tunnel attachments and such, so it works nicely. Be sure to do this somewhere very well ventilated and not near any kids or animals as often there are plastic fumes. In the wild ferrets stash and eat their food in their dens/tunnels. Having a feeding den helps to simulate natural feeding conditions and appeases their instincts. It really helps them feel more secure about eating, and gives them an easy to clean stash spot. To get him away from hand feeding work on doing this. Each meal slowly lower the spoon to the bowl, a little lower each meal, until he will eat out of the bowl while sitting in your lap. Then work on putting him on the floor in front of you while he eats out of the bowl. Then try putting the bowl in the feeding den. All through this you should be leaving some raw soup in the cage with him (or out where he can get it if he is free roam). He needs to have constant access to food. Hopefully as he gets more used to eating it out o the bowl on his own, he will try eating it on his own more too during the day. That is our goal. Also something that is fairly common with insu ferrets is that they become over full from getting so many small meals. If he starts not wanting to eat what you are offering, or refusing to eat often enough, then you should cut back on the amount of food that you feed him each time. It's important that he get enough snacks throughout the day and before his meds, but if each snack is a meal he'll get stuffed and not want his next snack. Something to just keep in mind and watch for.
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Post by racheld on Jun 7, 2014 21:01:55 GMT -5
I found cod liver oil so what I'm giving him now is a mix of 1/5 CLO and 4/5 ferretone, I'll gradually increase the ratio until he's just getting CLO. He's eating 100% pig with the taurine mixed in. He's still only eating when I hand feed him, although he may have had a bit--10g or so--when I was out today. I'll work on getting him to eat from the plate, and feeding him less before meds. What's the least I should feed before meds? One site suggested getting 30cc's into them before giving pred, does that sound right?
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Post by katt on Jun 7, 2014 21:58:19 GMT -5
I found cod liver oil so what I'm giving him now is a mix of 1/5 CLO and 4/5 ferretone, I'll gradually increase the ratio until he's just getting CLO.Ack! Sorry, but no cod liver oil! Cod liver oil is super high in Vitamin A, we occasionally use it as an emergency substitute for liver if someone can't get any in a pinch. Think of it as essentially being concentrated liver. It should definitely not be used as a treat or to give him his meds. Also, it's really not going to help his poops. I'm sorry, I know that stuff can be spendy. Maybe you can still return it? For fish oil, you can use the capsules - just poke a hole and squeeze the oil out (don't give him the capsule obviously). That is hard for giving meds though. Look at your pet store - PetCo and Petsmart both carry salmon oil supplements. You may be able to find non-capusle fish oil at a health foods store too. Or you can just buy some online. I can even get salmon oil cheaper than the pet store's stuff at my grocery store in the pet supply aisle. WalMart for example usually has some. Just try to find some with as few other ingredients as possible. He's eating 100% pig with the taurine mixed in. He's still only eating when I hand feed him, although he may have had a bit--10g or so--when I was out today.Good boy. I'll work on getting him to eat from the plate, and feeding him less before meds. You only really need to feed less if he isn't wanting to eat often enough. If he is snacking a few times a day, then I wouldn't worry too much. The issue is more when they get too full from their pre-med snack to eat their meals, or too full from their meals to eat their pre-med snacks. Or if they get too much food between meals and pre-med snacks and are too full to eat a few nibbles during the day to keep their BG up. Hope that makes sense. What's the least I should feed before meds? One site suggested getting 30cc's into them before giving pred, does that sound right?I don't know, but I will ask.
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Post by racheld on Jun 7, 2014 22:29:25 GMT -5
Ugh that is super disappointing about the CLO. I did see fish oil at the health store I was at but everything they had was lemon or mint flavored. I will order some of the type that you recommended, just to be safe.
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Post by racheld on Jun 7, 2014 22:33:17 GMT -5
Is the CLO/ferretone mix I have okay until the salmon oil comes or should I dump it?
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Post by katt on Jun 7, 2014 23:01:54 GMT -5
I know, I'm sorry. Normally I would say stop using it. It may make his poops a lot worse and there is risk of vitamin A toxicity. HOWEVER, since he isn't getting any liver with his pork soup right now, it should actually be okay short-term. As long as he isn't having really bad poops from it, and he is only getting very small amounts of it, it should be okay for now. I'll look up the dosage that you would use as a temporary liver replacement as I can't recall them off the top of my head. Keep in mind though that the oil may skew your "results" from the pork trial a bit since it may in itself make the poops looser. Hopefully it doesn't affect them too much with the small amount he is getting though. RE meals before the pred, I got this reply from Heather: I've seen it occur in a very short period of time. Is this ferret possibly adrenal? I would be tempted to do a run of antibiotics to see if that fights the ulcers before blaming the chicken. I think we're too fast to blame the meats for other problems. I used sucralfate before ever offering pred. So my regime looks like sucralfate 45 min before offering some food (even a tbsp)and then pred. I had Fun-Go on pred for over 2 yrs without ulcers. ciao
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Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 0:12:48 GMT -5
Okay, I have an appointment Monday morning so I can definitely ask about antibiotics for ulcers and sucralfate as a preventative. Is sucralfate the one that can mess up nutrient absorbtion?
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Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 1:46:11 GMT -5
When I make my order from MPC, do you think I should get rabbit and goat right now or wait until Remus is doing better with bigger chunks of pig to add other proteins?
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Post by katt on Jun 8, 2014 2:42:49 GMT -5
No reason not to get the other meats really. Very Worst case they will stay good for forever in your freezer. I guess if MPC makes regular drop offs and paying shipping on another order isn't an issue though and you can easily get some in a few weeks then you could hold off. Either way. And yes, sucralfate = carafate. It is a tummy coater and will reduce nutrient absorption. He is on soup though, which is about as easy to absorb as it gets, so that is good. He won't be on it long term so he's not at risk for malnutrition of anything. Be sure to ask your vet about timing with the Pred though - that's the biggie. It can also affect absorption of meds, so it has to be timed just right. Heads up if you get metro that it is the absolute worst med you can give a ferret. It works, but it tastes like death and they think you are trying to kill them. Usually ulcers are treated with amoxicillin + metronidazole + carafate. I remember Heather saying once her vet uses a different antibiotic to replace the amoxi and metro. I will ask her what it was so you can ask your vet if that migt be a good alternative. How are his poops doing? An improvement on his mouth ulcers?
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Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 3:57:31 GMT -5
His poops still look the same, unfortunately. I haven't been able to get a good look in his mouth--he hates it. I can try tomorrow, but the vet will definitely be checking on Monday. He had a teeny one last time I was there (last Monday) but the vet wasn't worried enough about it to prescribe anything, he figured it was small enough to heal on it's own.
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Post by katt on Jun 8, 2014 4:33:50 GMT -5
Could you get a picture of the poops? Softer poops are normal on soup, but they shouldn't be too soft either. Are they still rally dark?
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Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 5:27:41 GMT -5
They are still pretty dark. I will upload a poop picture later today.
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Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 7:40:16 GMT -5
I tried something new this morning--I set the plate of food on my knee and placed him in my lap. He did fine eating off the plate and for most of the time I didn't have to hold him there. When he made the 'oh no a chunk' face and ran off I gave him a minute or so and then tried again. He ate 14g that way and then I decided to stop so hopefully he'll feel peckish in the cage and eat on his own. Today seems like a good day for a progress report: 1. Ferret's name: Remus 2. Ferret's weight: 992g (down from last week, he was 1.03kg) 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: 18g seems about right. It ranges from 14g to 30g. 4. Stools on various proteins: They were dark and soft on chicken. Still haven't seen much of a change from that. 5. Activity levels: Good! He's been much more active and playful, and seems more interested in what's going on around him. 6. Weekly menu: Pig soupies, pudding consistency, with taurine powder and bone meal added.
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Post by katt on Jun 8, 2014 14:15:13 GMT -5
Okay so RE alternative meds for ulcers here's what I got from Sherry: Mine uses amoxi and clarythromycin(sp?), along with ranitidine(basically zantac). I found Frodo also got mouth/throat ulcers with the pred even with being fed beforehand, so what I started doing and it seems to have helped a bit is mixing maybe 1/2- 1tsp tsp soup and pred and giving him that first followed by his meal. And from Heather: Clavamox.....we use clavamox. I mix it myself by splitting the powder in half and only mixing half a bottle at a time. Clavamox isn't at it's most effective by the time you get to the bottom of the bottle. It's very time and temperature sensitive. The problem is instead of 2 weeks you use it for a month. The bonus, it tastes a whole lot better than metro and amoxi. If you are okay giving meds longer (I mean you are giving him meds every day already anyways), you may see what your vet thinks about the other options. Metro is extraordinarily stressful to give to ferrets. They WILL think that you are trying to kill them. Considering you have to give meds daily for the rest of his life, I am anxious for him to take metro and become afraid of the med syringe. And NO you cannot hide metro in soup or oils or treats no matter how much you dilute it. The stuff is d*mn potent. What you are doing with feedig is good - it is good to experiment and try new things to figure out what works best for him. I'm not too pleased that he has lost weight, but it's not a ton yet. Hopefully he will gain some weight on the pork, it is fattier than chicken which is a bonus. Are you giving him pork slivers then I take it? Is he eating any of them? About how big are they? If they are kind of square you may try cutting them more thin and long - they seem to like that better.
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