|
Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 14:28:09 GMT -5
I might look into the amoxicillin and clary...stuff. Haha. And I can try mixing the Pred with soup, definitely. He hasn't had slivers in his soup yet because I wanted to get him eating more on his own before I tried that. But today he ate 12g in the cage while I was sleeping so it seems like a good time to try. I'll defrost some meat tonight.
|
|
|
Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 15:10:11 GMT -5
And he just finished what was in the cage! I feel like we've jumped a hurdle! So I was thinking, since bone in meals need to be 8-9 meals a week, would duck be a better choice than lamb or goat? If rabbit is the only meat he has with bones he can eat but it's low in fat and taurine, that seems like it could get tricky.
|
|
|
Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 15:57:36 GMT -5
Pictures for you! Dark poops. These are both after they've dried up a little. I'm really not digging how sunken in his hips appear to be, even though he seems energetic.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Jun 8, 2014 16:40:57 GMT -5
First thing first - Cod Liver Oil. To use it for liver replacement the dosage is 1/2 tsp per week. So try not to exceed that, and once the salmon oil OR the pork liver arrives, then you'll want to cut it out again. And he just finished what was in the cage! I feel like we've jumped a hurdle!(dance) Good boy Remus! I am so glad to hear that. He is doing wonderfully. Definitely give some slivers a try and see what he thinks. So I was thinking, since bone in meals need to be 8-9 meals a week, would duck be a better choice than lamb or goat? If rabbit is the only meat he has with bones he can eat but it's low in fat and taurine, that seems like it could get tricky.Yes and no. Keep in mind that he is still quite a ways out from eating bones - we haven't even gotten him to take chunks of meat yet. I find insulinomic ferrets usually take a bit longer with the switch than healthier fuzz too - for whatever reason they are always the most stubborn ones AND you have to be extra sure they are eating frequently at each step. Don't think that we are ONLY going to have him on one bone-in meat. The end-goal is to have a variety of bone-in meats that he can eat. He is going to be getting ample fat from the pork, and taurine from the pork hearts once they arrive and the supplements in the meanwhile, so there's no immediate concern of any deficiencies. If you are getting GROUND meats, you may be able to get goat with the bones ground into it which will make them plenty small enough for him. I'm less familiar with what MPC has to offer, but I know HareToday has whole ground goat for example. You had said that the rabbit is ground - is the duck also ground?
|
|
|
Post by katt on Jun 8, 2014 17:19:26 GMT -5
It's really up to you which you want to order. Duck is a nice fatty food and is a dark meat (higher in taurine!), but it is a poultry item. That said, as I mentioned before it is very rare for a ferret to have an across-the-board poultry allergy. It's usually only to one specific protein. Beef is actually the most common allergen, with chicken being a close second. I have seen very few (honestly can't remember ANY specifically, but I'm sure there's a few out there) ferrets ever react to duck. It is a fairly safe meat. Rabbit is almost equivalent to lamb though in that I can't say I have EVER heard of a ferret reacting to rabbit. Ideally he will eventually eat both as long as you have access to them, as they are both great meats to feed. If you prefer to order the duck for now though for peace of mind, then go for it. If it is in chunk form with bones though just keep in mind that he won't be crunching on bones for a little while yet. [That said it never hurts to push them forward, so if you happen to leave a duck wing in his cage and he chomps down on it all the better! Just don't expect him to realize it's food for a while. lol ] Poops...hmmm... those look like organ poops. I'm still a bit suspicious of the potential for GI ulcers. He may NOT have them, but with the mouth ulcers, pred, and possible allergy it is a very definite possibility. That's what Koda's poops looked like when he had ulcers if I remember correctly (wow, it's been a while now...). I'm still just not 100% convinced of anything. Super helpful right. I'm not convinced yet that he has a chicken allergy and this isn't the result of pred instead, but I am also not convinced that this is pred instead of chicken either. The timing is just all too close together. Time will tell. It's also very possible (esp with a suspected allergy) that he has IBD. IBD is very common in ferrets with Adrenal disease. Speaking of which...I don't see any thinning in the pics that you posted - his coat looks great actually. If you think he has thinning though, then he probably does. On the hips, the butt/tail, and between the shoulder blades are the most common sites of initial hair thinning in adrenal disease. The hollow hips could be a sign of adrenal disease (weight loss and muscle wasting are common in AD) BUT with all of the other issues he has going on it could also be related to his GI upset, or even the insu. Unfortunately, he has so many issues with possibly overlapping symptoms that it's going to be a challenge to untangle. Hopefully with time we can straighten things out though. Poor boy, he is lucky to have a good mom like you taking such great care of him! A few things to note.... 1.) Testing for adrenal disease: if you vet offers do NOT accept. The Tennessee Panel is the only real test for AD, and it is extremely expensive and extremely unreliable. If he tests positive, he is positive. However, the test has a very high rate of false negatives AND it only tests for a very few of the many different hormones that can be off in adrenal disease. The best way to test for adrenal right now is honestly to treat it and see if the symptoms resolve. Remus is 4, which is definitely the age when ferrets become much higher risk for developing adrenal. Honestly with our mill babies it's not IF they will get AD, it is WHEN they will start showing symptoms. Many people are using annual Des implants for prevention. You could consider a few options, I would chat with your vet and think what you think would work best for you.... - Option 1: treat with 3 months of Lupron (MUST be 3 full months, and you MUST do 3 1-month shots, the single "3-month" shot is worthless, and if you don't complete the 3 months then you actually cause a hormone surge that does more harm than good). If he starts to improve on the Lupron, then you could either continue monthly lupron (warning - this gets spendy) OR go on to get a Des implant (much more cost effective). He will need a new Des implant every 6-9 months. - Option 2: go straight for the Des implant. If he responds to it, then he will need it every 6-9 months for Treatment. If you don't notice any change, then you are already a step ahead of the game and can use it preventively by giving him a new one every 12 months. (Keeping in mind that at his age he may still develop it, but the annual Des would slow the development and progression). - Option 3: your vet may decide that Remus' BG isn't high enough to risk treating the adrenal. Adrenal Disease can cause an artificially increased BG due to the increased stress hormones circulating in the body. Treating the adrenal reduced these excess hormones and can cause the BG to drop - you will have to monitor this closely. However, adrenal disease and insulinoma often seem to go hand in hand unfortunately. Typically the course of treatment is to get the BG under control first with pred, and once the insulinoma is well controlled via meds and diet, THEN treat the adrenal disease. Which is essentially what you have done I DO think, the more I think about it, that it would be a good idea to treat him for ulcers no matter what at this point. Ulcers are very commonly caused by heliobacter pylori, the presence of which can cause an increased risk of the development of cancer. I am spacing the specific name of the cancer that h. pylori is associated with, but regardless - as much as ferrets are already little cancer machines, any increased risk is bad. And his poops really do remind me of when Koda had ulcers. The fact that you saw some wicking on the paper towel, the dark color, and the presence of mouth ulcers, plus his weight loss....all lead me to believe that there is a very good chance that he may have some gastric ulcers. Whatever the cause, we want to get the ulcers treated and gone. The meds may really help improve his condition and in the very least they won't hurt him. RE the med that Heather mentioned - she said it has a short shelf life. Ask your vet if he decides to prescribe that if you can just take home a partial dose and come pick up the rest of it later so that you don't have to worry about it expiring. I did that when I was giving my snake injections of an antibiotic. It was only good for about 2 weeks, so I took home a 2-week supply and then went back at the end of two weeks to pick up the last 2-weeks' supply. I hope that covered everything and I answered your Q's without skipping anything. If anything is unclear or you have more Q's don't hesitate to ask!
|
|
|
Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 20:19:30 GMT -5
I'm compiling a list of things to talk to the vet about tomorrow and so far I have - Getting the des implant - Adding sucralfate to the med regimen - Asking about ulcers/treating for ulcers in case they are present - Checking his mouth--I got a look today but not a very good one. It looks good from what I can see, but still. When I order this time I'll probably get pig, rabbit, and duck, since the fat in the duck would (hopefully) help him put some weight back on. 'Whole ground' is an options for pretty much every type of meat they sell, which is nice. He's started doing this strange thing where he'll be eating and all of a sudden draw his head back toward his shoulders--almost like a turtle. Sometimes it takes him a minute to get that piece down, but he always keeps eating. I've never seen him do that before. Any idea what it could be?
|
|
|
Post by katt on Jun 8, 2014 20:51:27 GMT -5
I'm compiling a list of things to talk to the vet about tomorrow and so far I have - Getting the des implant - Adding sucralfate to the med regimenThe sucralfate is really for the ulcers, so you would only give it temporarily along with the antibiotics. BUT if your vet thinks that the pred is causing the issues and thinks that the carafate is something that might help it may be worth considering. That said, you generally don't want to give tummy coaters long term if if can be avoided due to the blocking of nutrient absorption. He will be better off bc he is on raw, but it is still not ideal. When treating ulcers you use what is typically referred to as "Triple Therapy" - for about 14 days you give the 2 antibiotics (amoxi and metro) and sucralfate (carafate). Not sure if that's what you meant (carafate short term) but I wanted to clarify to be sure. - Asking about ulcers/treating for ulcers in case they are present - Checking his mouth--I got a look today but not a very good one. It looks good from what I can see, but still. When I order this time I'll probably get pig, rabbit, and duck, since the fat in the duck would (hopefully) help him put some weight back on. 'Whole ground' is an options for pretty much every type of meat they sell, which is nice.Oh that's great! If it is whole ground animal too you can treat that like whole prey. We can go over balancing stuff once you get those. Pork, duck, and rabbit sounds like a fantastic combo. The two fatty meats will hopefully help put some meat on his bones, and the rabbit should be a nice safe, gentle food. All 3 are foods I don't see many reactions to, so hopefully he does well on them. He's started doing this strange thing where he'll be eating and all of a sudden draw his head back toward his shoulders--almost like a turtle. Sometimes it takes him a minute to get that piece down, but he always keeps eating. I've never seen him do that before. Any idea what it could be?Huh, that is odd. By piece do you mean a sliver, or is this just with soup? Any chance you could get a video? If he is eating quickly he may be eating Too fast and not swallowing his food properly, but with tiny slivers and soup I really wouldn't think he'd be choking on that...with his other issues I really have to wonder if he might have an ulcer in his throat or back of his mouth that is causing him some pain when he swallows. That's really what it sounds like to me... I would mention it to your vet - maybe (s)he can get a better look a little further back (though obviously without scoping it is impossible to see down the throat). With everything he is doing I am honestly just becoming more and more suspicious of ulcers. I could be totally wrong and just doing positive whatever it is called (OMG totally spacing on the psych term lol seeing only what I think is true or whatever the term is...brain fart). Have you noticed him tooth griding at all? Here is a video of Kenai grinding his teeth:
|
|
|
Post by racheld on Jun 8, 2014 21:03:47 GMT -5
It's just soup. I have noticed teeth grinding, but pretty much only during meals. Definitely going to push hard to get him on ulcer treatment.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Jun 8, 2014 21:12:11 GMT -5
It's just soup. I have noticed teeth grinding, but pretty much only during meals. Definitely going to push hard to get him on ulcer treatment. Yeah....I would push really hard for that ulcer treatment. I would bet a LOT of money that he has ulcers. He is showing very clear signs. Tooth grinding is a sign of pain, he is having trouble swallowing that really sounds like pain, and his poops look very much like gastric ulcer poops. And he has had visible ulcers in his mouth, so you KNOW he has had a few to begin with. Everything you are telling me is just more and more classic symptoms of ulcers. I really think he needs treatment. You may even find that his poop issues resolve entirely once the ulcers are treated, and he starts to gain weight better bc it no longer hurts his mouth, throat and tummy to eat. Poor baby. I have dealt with ulcers multiple times in both of my boys - it is never fun. He will feel SO much better if you can get them taken care of though.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Jun 9, 2014 1:09:32 GMT -5
Sounds like some ferrets just need sucralfate before meals on pred, I'm trying to find out more about using it long term for you. Like I said before, having him on raw diet will help a LOT as it is much easier to digest and absorb. If the ulcers come back after treatment, then I'd say it would probably be a good idea to keep him on preventive sucralfate. If they stay away, then he may be fine without it.
|
|
|
Post by racheld on Jun 9, 2014 6:52:28 GMT -5
Should I still start him on slivers or should we wait until the ulcers are resolved?
|
|
|
Post by racheld on Jun 9, 2014 7:36:53 GMT -5
The vet isn't convinced it's ulcers because Remus is still eating and his energy is okay, he thinks it's more likely that it's just upset stomach from the Pred. He is going to give me carafate though.
|
|
|
Post by racheld on Jun 9, 2014 7:39:53 GMT -5
And we're getting the des implant today.
|
|
|
Post by racheld on Jun 9, 2014 20:39:06 GMT -5
I did a mix of about 60% slivers and 40% soup and he took right to it! The slivers were about the size of peas.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Jun 9, 2014 23:19:08 GMT -5
The vet isn't convinced it's ulcers because Remus is still eating and his energy is okay, he thinks it's more likely that it's just upset stomach from the Pred. He is going to give me carafate though. HOW can he not be convinced that it is ulcers? He shows all of the symptoms.... That is annoying. Are you still giving the colloidal silver? That should help them a lot - hopefully that and the carafate will be enough to get rid of them since you aren't getting any antibiotics. I was chatting with Sherry about CS dosing today. She has had more luck giving it orally directly instead of in the water. Here was her response.... Sherry: Dosages for CS are generally fairly high for a few days to start before going to a low dose. But even .1 twice a day would be helpful. Normal suggested dose for a 10lb cat(and most ferret stuff is based on that it seems) is 20 drops 4X a day lol Frodo was getting .2 twice a day for his mouth and throat ulcers for 4 days. Had they been worse I'd have gone to .3 or even .2 three times a day and yes, via syringe. I would give it as soon as I pulled him out before offering water or food.ALSO you may or may not know her, but Mustelidmusk (Jennifer) is a very long time forum member. She is in and out due to a very hectic personal life. She has a ton of experience with adrenal and IBD (she was my mentor when Koda originally started having issues with IBD as a kit), and actually works very closely with her vet on natural remedies which is pretty unique and super awesome so she is a great resource. This was her input: slippery elm bark will help to coat the entire digestive tract from mouth to anus. There are some other things I can look into that might be useful...but if the helicobacter is out or control and the immune system is not dealing with it, this may not be enough. I recommend getting a second opinion - ulcers are diffilut to treat in ferrets even when they are small. left untreated, and bad ulcer can result in death...even slow blood loss over a period of time can weaken a ferret so badly....not worth the risk.. I will look into some other options such as well.Slippery Elm would basically do the same as carafate, so since you have the sucralfate I would just use that. And we're getting the des implant today.THAT is great news! How did it go? Keep a close eye on your little man over the next few weeks in case his BG drops (do you have a home BG monitor by chance? if not, it's a good thing to have on hand with an insu ferret so it may be worth getting one), but hopefully the Des does him a world of good. It typically takes about 6-8 weeks to fully kick in so you may not notice weight and coat improvements immediately. Most find that controlling the adrenal disease helps to also get the insulinoma under better control though, since many of the involved hormones are tightly intertwined. Koda's IBD came under MUCH, MUCH better control once we started him on Des (the two really seem to go hand in hand for some reason), and he gained a bunch of weight back, built his muscles back up, and his coat is luscious and soft. Koda before Des: (summer) Koda after Des: (winter more) (summer mode - he's all wet but you can see the weight difference) And to give you an idea of what Koda's poops looked like when his GI ulcers were really bad (sometimes they were this color, sometimes they looked very Black)... I did a mix of about 60% slivers and 40% soup and he took right to it! The slivers were about the size of peas.That is fantastic! (dance) Good boy Remus, keep it up! Did he eat them on his own or in your lap?
|
|