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Post by gfountain on Jun 8, 2014 19:16:04 GMT -5
Whoa, does this mean that IF he eats the mouse, beef kidney isn't required at all? That's what that means, IF you put him on a mostly whole prey diet. If at least half of his diet is whole prey, he shouldn't need any other organs besides the chicken liver & whatever he gets from the prey. There's still debate going on about the organ requirements for whole prey. Until recently, liver was the only organ required. BUT the goal of frankenprey is to mimic as closely as possible what they would eat in the wild, and you know they would not pick out just the liver to eat and leave the rest. They would eat everything. So with the idea of copying their natural diet, it makes sense that they would need other organs besides liver. However, if it's a choice of feeding kibble or feeding raw with only liver for organs? Not a hard choice. That said, I would still keep working on that kidney. The more variety he gets, the better off he'll be. Cutting a few slits into a mouse and mushing the head up (braiiinnnns) for him tonight, but leaving it mostly intact. We'll see what he thinks. If it's a no-go, we'll chop the next one up.
Crossing my fingers... (and brains = organ) Oops! Sorry, I'm still trying to work whole prey into the menu. >_<
Not a problem. That's why I'm here. Whole prey... what else can you get besides mice? It will soon be time to start introducing more goodies! Gotcha. I'll add a half-meal of liver to one of his bone-in quail meals.
How's he doing with the quail? Does he like it? Okay, so am I right in thinking that the bone-in and muscle-meat meals are flexible, so long as his heart and liver and "other organ" needs are met? So we can always add more or less bone to help his poops with their consistency? Or is there a necessary minimum for muscle/bone-in?
Bone should be 10-15% of their total intake, muscle meat is 65-70%. Because the bone is attached to meat, that makes these meals pretty flexible. Just judge depending on poos. If the poos are formed and semi-solid, he should be good on the bone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2014 19:24:26 GMT -5
Okay, we'll keep working with him on the kidney. I'll report on his progress with the mouse tomorrow morning.
Whole prey other than mice... we'll be ordering rabbit, quail, mice, ginuea pigs, and whole chickens... but remember that we're broke until the 13th. So hopefully after this week, we'll be able to place an order. We got a chest freezer earlier so we'll have pleeenty of room.
He's doing great with the quail. Eats the whole thing without issue and is no longer leaving it behind after meals.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 8, 2014 19:24:59 GMT -5
Ahhhh, I just realized you posted twice before and I missed one. You can ignore my questions about balancing his whole prey. Lol. I think I have a better understanding now. Not sure if I missed something or not.. didn't see any questions about whole prey?? Chicken neck is apparently really yummy.. my kids are fighting over one as I type. They have a wing in there too, so the neck either tastes better or Minnie just wants it because Slinkee got it first. Chicken necks are fine to use for bone-in in place of wings. Just be aware that they are more bone-dense than a wing and thus will firm the poos. You'll want to feed a muscle or organ meal after a neck meal. Drumettes are fine to use also, just the bones are bigger and more dense. That's why I said to use the other sections. But if all you have is drumettes, you can just cut them a couple of times. Try cutting them lengthwise now, rather than breaking across them. We really prefer to only remove food if it's smelling bad or hasn't been touched for 2 meals (or 24 hrs) but that has only happened with the stuff he doesn't want.
OK, that's what I thought. I just wanted to double-check. I would really like to see him eating at least another half ounce to ounce per day. But if the food is available, he knows how to eat by himself, and he's still leaving it, then he's apparently getting enough to eat.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 8, 2014 19:29:36 GMT -5
HAHAHA... we're cross posting. I hate when that happens, because then I get confused. ...remember that we're broke until the 13th. yeah, I remember. I just didn't remember what else you were getting, & I was feeling lazy and didn't want to look through all 8 pages, lol. At least it's only until the 13th... I think I'll be broke until at least 2018... just got college tuition bills for the upcoming year. So hopefully after this week, we'll be able to place an order. We got a chest freezer earlier so we'll have pleeenty of room.
Chest freezer = good move. So much easier to store things. He's doing great with the quail. Eats the whole thing without issue and is no longer leaving it behind after meals.
Whole thing? Not a whole quail yet, right?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2014 19:31:27 GMT -5
This should fix the cross-posting issue. Not sure if I missed something or not.. didn't see any questions about whole prey??You answered it, I just missed that one too. Dumb phone. Ignore me. Chicken neck is apparently really yummy.. my kids are fighting over one as I type.Good! I'll let you know if Ezzy is like your two and loves them... too bad he doesn't have anyone to fight over them with (yet!!). But if all you have is drumettes, you can just cut them a couple of times. Try cutting them lengthwise nowI just checked and Sam says we used all of the drumettes! So chicken necks it is. I'll cut them lengthwise. I would really like to see him eating at least another half ounce to ounce per day. But if the food is available, he knows how to eat by himself, and he's still leaving it, then he's apparently getting enough to eat.Me too, trust me! Honestly, even when we thought he was stuffing himself on kibble (he would eat it for 45 minutes to an hour, steadily eating), it only weighed out to about 1 oz to 1.5 oz. He's an incredibly slow eater... not sure why. He's such a fattypants too. ... just got college tuition bills for the upcoming year. Yeaaahhhh, there's a reason I didn't go to college! Not the whole quail, right?The whole thing chopped up, yes. I'm about to post a new menu. Just a sec. Okay, here it is:SUN AM: chicken / quail bone-in SUN PM: adult mouse Already passed ^MON AM: chicken hearts MON PM: quail bone-in w/ beef kidney chunks TUE AM: 50:50 (loose ratio, depending on what he eats) beef kidney / quail bone-in TUE PM: 50:50 (loose ratio, depending on what he eats) beef kidney / quail bone-in WED AM: chicken gizzards (he seems to like these) WED PM: adult mouse THU AM: 50:50 chicken hearts / chicken liver THU PM: 50:50 (loose ratio, depending on what he eats) beef kidney / quail bone-in FRI AM: chicken gizzardsFRI PM: 50:50 chicken necks / chicken liverSAT AM: chicken gizzards SAT PM: chicken necks
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Post by gfountain on Jun 8, 2014 19:39:43 GMT -5
Chicken necks shouldn't need to be cut at all. They're just little bones (vertebrae) stuck together with skin & cartilage & a little meat.
College bills... for 2 now!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2014 19:41:13 GMT -5
Ohhh, okay, no cutting the chicken necks.
I added the menu to my last post. Let me know what you think.
And good luck with those college bills! Your kiddos are lucky that you're able to help out.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 8, 2014 19:52:03 GMT -5
Looks pretty good. I count 1.5 meals heart, 2 half meals liver + kidney + mouse organs. It's still really chicken heavy, but it's getting there! Now if he'll just agree to eat all that... IF you cut the chicken necks, cut them crosswise into chunks. I'm not sure you could even do those lengthwise College bills.. fortunately, my girls have worked really hard and they're both on scholarships! So MOST of their bills are taken care of and so far we've been able to cover the rest. I told them I'd rather eat ramen noodles for the next 4-6 years than for them to be thousands of dollars in debt when they get out.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 8, 2014 19:53:37 GMT -5
You know what.. I said it was really chicken heavy, but I just looked at it again and it's not REALLY chicken heavy, just a LITTLE chicken heavy. So yeah, it looks good!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2014 19:56:58 GMT -5
Good, we'll keep trying to add more proteins. I am thinking more quail next week and, of course, more mice if he takes these without a fuss.
Sam has 80k in student loans. I didn't go to college. His parents were unable to help put and we're constantly suffering financially due to the debt, so it really makes me happy to hear you're helping them.
Off I go to cut up some liver. D:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 20:02:52 GMT -5
Welp, he was having none of the mouse. I'll mix it half and half with chicken neck and see how he takes that on Wednesday. He had hearts for the AM and ate all 1.5 oz. He's got quail with 25% beef kidney chunks right now. In the morning, we'll see how he did, and if we need to increase or decrease the kidney ratio. He's also lost another 2 oz, but he is looking SO much healthier, stronger, and plays and runs for longer distances. No longer a fat lumpy pear-belly, and he actually has no trouble getting up and down from the makeshift ramps like he did when we originally put them in. Sooo happy about that. He's looking like an actual ferret, and omg his pee smells good.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 11:00:42 GMT -5
So, as I said, we gave him 25% beef kidney last night. When I woke up this morning, he had eaten all of his quail and none of his kidney. (disagree) THEN, on a whim, I told Sam to feed him his AM meal at about 8:30 instead of 6:30 when I normally feed him before work. When Sam came back at 8:30, all the kidney was gone! Go Ezzy!! So, we know he doesn't prefer the kidney, but he'll eat it. I'm thinking this means that we need to give him a meal of JUST kidney, so that he'll eat it. If that's okay with you, we'll go ahead and do just that. There were two meals that were 50/50 bone-in and kidney. I'd like to change this to 1 meal of bone-in and 1 meal of kidney. Sound good? Oh, and I updated the spreadsheet to make it a little easier to read. I'm also going to start doing his weight once a week instead of daily. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dIFmdQAW2hG2IRmElzyqKkxm7aanvsVMD2eojcOBFhA/edit#gid=0
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Post by gfountain on Jun 10, 2014 11:17:26 GMT -5
Aw.. I was hoping he'd like that mouse. He's being a little brat with the kidney, lol.
OK, when I told you to add another half liver meal, I really didn't expect him to take to that kidney so quickly. Personally, I would leave the menu as is and just feed the kidney where you already have it. But if you want to change things up and give him a whole meal of kidney, you'll have to make some other adjustments as well, because another whole organ meal with throw the balance off. He only needs one and a half meals of organ and at least half of that should be liver.
SUN AM: chicken / quail bone-in SUN PM: adult mouse Already passed ^
MON AM: chicken hearts MON PM: quail bone-in w/ beef kidney chunks
TUE AM: 50:50 (loose ratio, depending on what he eats) beef kidney / quail bone-in What did you do here? TUE PM: 50:50 (loose ratio, depending on what he eats) beef kidney / quail bone-in If you change this to all kidney, then you need to make adjustments as indicated
WED AM: chicken gizzards (he seems to like these) WED PM: adult mouse
THU AM: 50:50 chicken hearts / chicken liver THU PM: 50:50 (loose ratio, depending on what he eats) beef kidney / quail bone-in Change to all quail
FRI AM: chicken gizzards FRI PM: 50:50 chicken necks / chicken liver Change to all necks
SAT AM: chicken gizzards SAT PM: chicken necks
Those changes will mostly balance out the organs, but it will still be more kidney than liver, which is not optimal, but OK.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 10, 2014 11:19:47 GMT -5
HIS PEE SMELLS GOOD?!?! I am sooo jealous! My kids' pee smells like... umm... I don't know what, but NASTY!!!
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Post by gfountain on Jun 10, 2014 11:24:24 GMT -5
Weight is still OK, especially is activity is good. I'm glad he's losing his kibble-belly. A raw fed ferret should be tube shaped, not pear shaped. He'll be building muscle mass now too, instead of just fat. I think you should go back to weighing him once a week though, instead of every day. Weighing every day tends to make people more nervous because of seeing normal daily fluctuations, rather than an overall gain/loss. Obviously, if you SEE or feel a huge weight change, we'll need to monitor more closely, but since he's doing well with his food, there's no need to go to the trouble of doing a daily weight. EDIT: aannndd.. we did it again.. the cross-posting. At least we're on the same page with the weight thing. :thumbsup:
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