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Post by Heather on May 20, 2014 23:29:28 GMT -5
Name: Alyse HF Forum Username: alyse 1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? Here at the HFF and other internet forums. 2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. I'd like a fully whole prey diet, occasionally using live prey. 3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? It's the healthiest possible thing for them and necessary for a full and healthy life. 4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment? We are committed to and prepared for the diet switch with him. 5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for? Just our Ezra. He's a 6 month old hob and weighs 2.8 lbs. I've owned him for 4 months. 6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup? He began the switch about a week ago from Marshall's kibble (~6oz/day) to raw soup. He's had varying success. 7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? Just as outlined above. He has also crunched on frozen pinky mice when prompted, but will not yet eat anything but kibble on his own (without having it brought to his mouth with a spoon first). 8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? None. 9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? 7 days a week. 10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible). 11. Have you met the requirements for this program? Do you have your scale, a place to access meats, hearts, livers, etc? Yes, we have three separate stores to buy meat, and a stock of hearts, liver, gizzards, eggshell powder, and thigh meat, along with soup in the freezer. Hi and welcome to the mentoring program (wave). In a little while your mentor (Gfountain), will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun (dance). Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2014 6:24:53 GMT -5
WOW, that was quick! Because it didn't show up in Heather's copy/paste, I'm re-posting last week's weekly picture of him: i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy300/alysevickery/20140515_203837_zpsbd0ff056.jpgGina, I know you've been watching my other thread, but we've been busy and haven't posted in a couple of days. (disappointed) He's still eating thick soup from a spoon on the floor, but only if I hold him in place. He won't touch it if left overnight. He's been more reluctant the past couple of days (less than 1 oz soup per day) so we've left kibble for him for both AM and PM. We are very in need of guidance right now! Spreadsheet here (should I keep doing the spreadsheet?): docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dIFmdQAW2hG2IRmElzyqKkxm7aanvsVMD2eojcOBFhA/edit#gid=0I'm going to start weighing him once daily instead of once a week now that I have a proper thread, too. Let me know what else you need! We are both really excited! (I mean me and Sam... Ezzy is probably not as excited).
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Post by gfountain on May 21, 2014 11:22:09 GMT -5
Yes, that was fast! So fast that I haven't even had a chance to write a bio yet. You and I both know that I'm new to this mentoring thing, but I just want to reassure you that I have the full support of ALL the other mentors, and be assured that if I'm not sure about something I WILL ask them. We'll get little Ezra switched to raw whether he wants to or not. I'll tell you up front that I can't do the live prey thing, so when we get to that point I'll probably call in someone else. I know that live prey is natural and healthy, but I have little rodent pets and I just can't do it. I'm going to go back and read through your other thread to refresh my memory, and I'll get back to this later, but for now if you would, put a copy of your soup recipe here and a quick recap of the last week so we have a record of everything in one place. And keep doing what you're doing. Ezra is doing great! Remember, two steps forward, one step back.
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Post by gfountain on May 21, 2014 11:26:52 GMT -5
Are you still using beef liver or did you get chicken liver?
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2014 11:39:22 GMT -5
Thank you! I was wondering where your bio was. I have faith in your knowledge, and will be happy to get him onto whole prey before live prey comes into the picture, if it ever does. Is whole prey alright with you or are you only up to frankenprey? I'm sure he'll go through all the steps either way but I understand with your rodent pets why it would be out of bounds for you. It was for me until recently. The soup recipe we've got right now is: - 8oz chicken thigh meat - 1oz beef liver - 2 chicken hearts - 1/2 tsp eggshell powder And for the recap: Thu, May 15He ate ~1 oz of soup off of my finger, would not work with a spoon. Left it overnight but he didn't eat it. We had a video of him eating. Fri, May 16Kibble in AM. PM was a thicker soup, and from a spoon in my lap. He ate 3.5 oz. Again, left it overnight to no avail. Video here. Sat, May 17Kibble in AM. PM was the thick soup again, from a spoon on the floor. He ate 1 oz and was somewhat reluctant. Overnight soup was untouched. Video. Sun, May 18Soup in the AM this time. He didn't eat it. We hand-fed 1.4 oz of soup (on the floor with a spoon). He didn't touch it in his cage during day or overnight. Mon, May 19Vet appointment. He got kibble in the AM since he had only eaten 1.4 oz all day the day before, and because we got home so late from the vet, he got kibble in the PM as well. Tue, May 20Kibble in the AM again. He munched on a pinky mouse and also had about 0.4 oz of soup, but he did not have much, so we left kibble again in the PM. TodayWe left kibble for him for the AM and have soup thawed at home for feeding in the PM. Questions: Does the thick soup look okay (as in videos 2 and 3)? What should I do about him being evasive? Just keep pushing it? I don't want him to resent me. Presenting the food after hours of playtime or not doesn't seem to have an effect on him pulling away and acting reluctant. Normal behaviour? Should I leave kibble for him more or less often? Right now the plan is 1 meal kibble per day, in the AM, and soup overnight. Would he be okay with less? He's only 6 months old so insolumnia isn't a concern. Thanks again.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2014 11:41:18 GMT -5
We have access to chicken liver, but still have a small stock of beef liver. His poops have looked normal so I don't think there's any problem with him having any intolerence to it from what I've read (? Maybe I just don't know what to look for?), however in the future I would like to NOT feed him pork or beef. I'm fine with chicken, rabbit, duck, fish of any kind, mice, other rodents, etc. I don't so much like feeding larger animals i.e.: pork, beef, bison, etc.
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Post by gfountain on May 21, 2014 22:42:03 GMT -5
I'm sorry I didn't get back to this sooner. I just got home from a long day. My daughter's senior class is having a dinner and silent auction tomorrow night and somehow I got put in charge of most of it. (headwall) OK, I know you've done your research and already have a lot of information about raw feeding, but to make sure everything is covered, I'm going to go about this as if you're a REAL beginner. I'll just say I'm sorry in advance if I'm repetitious. I have a document (in my computer at work) that's basically an intro to raw that I intended to paste here today for you to read, but I got busy, so I'll try to do that tomorrow when I get to work. I'm sure most of it is stuff you're familiar with, but I want to make sure we get all the bases covered. Thank you! I was wondering where your bio was. It's in the works, but if you want to know anything about me, just ask. I have faith in your knowledge, and will be happy to get him onto whole prey before live prey comes into the picture, if it ever does. Is whole prey alright with you or are you only up to frankenprey? I'm sure he'll go through all the steps either way but I understand with your rodent pets why it would be out of bounds for you. It was for me until recently.
I personally use the frankenprey menu, but whole prey is fine. As long as it's already dead and I don't have to see its face, I'm good. :thumbsup: The soup recipe we've got right now is:
- 8oz chicken thigh meat
- 1oz beef liver
- 2 chicken hearts
- 1/2 tsp eggshell powder
I think I remember that you made a boat load of this, right? Are you keeping it frozen until just before he's ready for it? If it sours, he won't eat it. The easiest way to keep and serve this is to freeze it in ice cube trays, then pop them out and store them in a ziploc bag. They defrost pretty quickly and he'll probably like it better if it's warmed with hot water. And for the recap:
Thank you. It's just easier to have everything in one place. It seems that Ezra is not liking the thicker soup. Try going back to the thinner soup and see if he eats it better. I don't think you need to leave it overnight yet, not until he's eating it really well from a dish. At this point, he's only eating the soup from a spoon, yes? Until you can get him eating from the dish, it's not going to do any good to leave soups in the cage. It will just be wasted. He munched on a pinky mouse
Did he eat it, or just chew on it? Today We left kibble for him for the AM and have soup thawed at home for feeding in the PM.
How did that go? Does the thick soup look okay (as in videos 2 and 3)?
It depends on if he'll eat it or not. As I said, if he's not liking the texture, take a step back and thin it out some more. We're working up to thick soup, but if he won't eat it yet, it's OK. He's still getting used to the taste of the raw, and the texture may be off-putting. What should I do about him being evasive? Just keep pushing it? I don't want him to resent me. Presenting the food after hours of playtime or not doesn't seem to have an effect on him pulling away and acting reluctant. Normal behaviour?
Count your blessings that he's just evasive and not downright dramatic. Yes, it's perfectly normal. Slinkee spit his soup in my face. That was normal too. Just keep at it. When he's playing, grab him and put a dab on his nose every few minutes. He'll lick it off and eventually learn to like it. Does he like any kind of oil? If so, you can try dribbling a tiny bit on top of the soup and see if that will get him started. Slinkee is addicted to Ferretone (more on this in a minute) and will do ANYTHING to get a drop of it. One tiny drip was all it took to get him started licking and then he would eat fine. Another thing you might try is all meat baby food (stage 2 Beechnut chicken or turkey is best). Slinkee LOVES that stuff and I started his switch mixing the raw with the Beechnut, then gradually decreasing the baby food while increasing the raw. OK, about the Ferretone... I didn't know any better, and Ferretone was on the 'must have for a ferret list', so it came home with me the same day Slinkee did. HA! Once I found out that not only is it not necessary, it's not very healthy, I tried a couple of different oils but he didn't like any of them. I decided to just start cutting the 'tone with EVOO, and he's doing pretty well with that. Our ratio is about 1:5 now, Ferretone:EVOO but I still call it 'tone. I really only use it for training and to entice him to try new foods. Minnie didn't like it at all, but she's learning from Slinks that it's not so bad. Not sure if that's good or bad... Should I leave kibble for him more or less often? Right now the plan is 1 meal kibble per day, in the AM, and soup overnight. Would he be okay with less? He's only 6 months old so insolumnia isn't a concern.
Is he super hungry in the mornings after a night with only soup? If he's not eating a good serving of soup at night, I'd leave him some kibble overnight also. Just be sure there are a few hours between the raw and the kibble. Until he's eating a fairly good serving of soup, you don't want to take his kibble away. He's still young, and probably still needs to eat more than an adult. We don't want him to be too hungry. We have access to chicken liver, but still have a small stock of beef liver. His poops have looked normal so I don't think there's any problem with him having any intolerence to it from what I've read (? Maybe I just don't know what to look for?), however in the future I would like to NOT feed him pork or beef. I'm fine with chicken, rabbit, duck, fish of any kind, mice, other rodents, etc. I don't so much like feeding larger animals i.e.: pork, beef, bison, etc.
Beef liver is fine. I was just wondering because beef liver has a stronger taste. I wasn't sure if you had used chicken then changed to beef. That could explain his reluctance to eat the soup. You don't HAVE to feed any larger animals as long as you can provide at least 3 proteins (different animals) preferably in the muscle meats or bone-in meats rather than the organs. You guys are doing great! Don't give up on him!
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 6:40:36 GMT -5
I don't mind waiting for a reply! I'm just glad I have your mentorship! Good luck with the silent auction! Hope it goes smoothly! I want to make sure we get all the bases covered.Yes, absolutely! Go over things as many times as you'd like. I don't want to miss anything. I think I remember that you made a boat load of this, right? Are you keeping it frozen until just before he's ready for it?Right. If I had to guess, I have probably... 30 or 40 more meals of this. It can be mixed with slivers whenever he's ready. I hadn't thought of the ice cube trays. Right now, I have about 6 portions per sandwich-sized ziplock bag and about 5 bags of this, frozen in the freezer. I will take one bag out at a time, about a day before serving, and let the whole 6-meal batch thaw in the fridge. Once thawed, I've been mixing each serving with the hot water like you suggested right before feeding it, and he does seem to like that. Until the next batch, this method is fine for us. We will try to find some ice cube trays in the meantime. It seems that Ezra is not liking the thicker soup.I can see that it looks that way. I fed the thick soup last night before you got back to me, and he ate 2 oz, which is more than he's ever eaten in one sitting. He also chewed and swallowed a chunk of chicken skin a little bigger than my thumbnail! That one really surprised me! I think, with his evasive attitude, it's my method, not the soup. If you're alright with it, I'd like to keep up with the thick soup and keep watching him with it to see how he does after last night's success. At this point, he's only eating the soup from a spoon, yes? Until you can get him eating from the dish, it's not going to do any good to leave soups in the cage.I have a question for you on this. We don't mind wasting the soup (money isn't much of a problem for us at the moment with Sam getting a better job soon, and the stuff is cheap). Ezzy does eat from the dish for 3-4 bites once I get him started on it, if I leave the spoon in there. I think that means that he realizes it's food and that he can eat it? If so, and if I'm able to feed him a good amount when hand-feeding - his normal daily intake of kibble is about 3oz at MOST, so let's say we aim for 2 oz during hand-feeding and no less - is it then okay to leave soup in the cage instead of kibble? This way, he has food if he does get hungry, plus he's also eaten about what he normally does in a day, under supervision, so we know he's getting enough nutrients? I've also heard that kibble is not equal to soup in how filling it is, so I'm thinking he is actually getting pretty full from a good session of hand-feeding. I know your Minnie just gobbled everything in site, so it sounds like they can be very different in how much food they require or want. I've never seen Ezra eat much at all, so he may just not require much. Even if we leave 4 oz of kibble for him all day (~10 hrs), he rarely finishes even 2 oz. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, and whether or not you think he might intentionally evade the soup if he knows we're leaving kibble every morning. He seems like he'll hold out for it, but I want to see if he'll move towards the soup overnight when he begins to feel it's the only option (and, of course, provided he continues eating 2 oz daily during hand-feeding). My vet said he's still a baby, so (in her words) "he can go a day without eating". My thought is that he can definitely go on 2 oz (or more) a day if we're monitoring poops and activity levels. What do you think? Re: the pinky mouseHe chewed and swallowed the head, he did not seem interested in swallowing any other part of it, though he did chew the feet. He doesn't seem too interested currently, so we'll save more tries with mice for the later future. When he's playing, grab him and put a dab on his nose every few minutes. He'll lick it off and eventually learn to like it.This is what I meant above about changing my method. I need to let him play more inbetween bites and just be patient. I tried this last night and he would do his rounds about the room, play in his tube, and then come over to me and sniff at the bowl. It was easier, then, to get him to eat for longer. Does he like any kind of oil?Believe it or not, the vet tried to give us ferretone and he didn't like it at all. She poured some in his mouth and he spat it out. She tried for 5 minutes and said she's never had a ferret who didn't like it. He does the same spitting thing with olive oil. That's the only other oil we've tried. So he doesn't seem to like any oils that we know of. Another thing you might try is all meat baby food (stage 2 Beechnut chicken or turkey is best).Okay! We'll keep an eye out for this when we go shopping this week! Shopping list: ice cube trays all meat baby food You don't HAVE to feed any larger animals as long as you can provide at least 3 proteins (different animals) preferably in the muscle meats or bone-in meats rather than the organs.Awesome. We're really glad to hear this! You guys are doing great! Don't give up on him! Thank you!!! Also, we left soupie last night (untouched) and this morning before we got a chance to read your reply. If it's all okay with you, we'll see how feeding goes tonight and aim for whatever is needed, so we can keep leaving soup for him and cut kibble out entirely. If the 2 oz from a spoon doesn't seem like enough, let me know what our goal is (3oz, 4oz? from the bowl without coaxing? solely from the bowl, no spoon?) so we know what steps to be taking to get him there. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 22:13:53 GMT -5
Just another update before I get to sleep tonight. We hand-fed 2 oz of the soup this afternoon. No spoon for the majority of it. Woo! He was eating from the bowl, on his own, for 30 seconds at a time. This includes slices of chicken skin about 2 inches long and a cm or so wide. We also bought him a bowl with lower sides today and we'll use that to see if it's the limited vision he doesn't like about the taller bowl. We got an ice cube tray as well to have on hand for our next batch! He also ate about 0.8oz of the soup we left in his cage today... so it seems he will eat it if he feels inclined. Let me know what you think, and I hope your dinner/auction went well!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 10:52:55 GMT -5
I wanted to kick myself when he sat in his cage eating soup on his own for a full minute before I grabbed the camera. Of course I only caught the last 5 seconds of it. We really think this larger bowl with lower sides makes a difference.
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Post by gfountain on May 23, 2014 16:54:07 GMT -5
I haven't deserted you, although I'm not really sure what you need me for after reading your updates. You guys are doing GREAT!! I'm so proud of Ezra, eating by himself! I really was thinking that he wasn't eating the soups yet. All right, I'm going to try to reply to everything again. I did this yesterday, but as I told you, apparently it's lost in cyberspace. Hopefully, that won't happen again. Soups: Right now, I have about 6 portions per sandwich-sized ziplock bag and about 5 bags of this, frozen in the freezer. I will take one bag out at a time, about a day before serving, and let the whole 6-meal batch thaw in the fridge. Once thawed, I've been mixing each serving with the hot water like you suggested right before feeding it, and he does seem to like that. Until the next batch, this method is fine for us. We will try to find some ice cube trays in the meantime.
The baggie method is fine really, as long as the thawed soup is not turning before you get to the last of it. When we were doing soups, it seemed to start souring after about 36 hours in the fridge and Slinkee wouldn't eat it. But if the baggies are working for you, there's no need to change it. I fed the thick soup last night before you got back to me, and he ate 2 oz, which is more than he's ever eaten in one sitting. He also chewed and swallowed a chunk of chicken skin a little bigger than my thumbnail! That one really surprised me! I think, with his evasive attitude, it's my method, not the soup. If you're alright with it, I'd like to keep up with the thick soup and keep watching him with it to see how he does after last night's success.
2 oz is awesome! That's more than enough for one meal. Full-grown males generally eat 3-4 oz PER DAY, and less during warmer weather. Chicken skin seems to be REALLY yummy, so I'm not surprised he ate that. Did he chew it correctly with his back teeth? if I'm able to feed him a good amount when hand-feeding - his normal daily intake of kibble is about 3oz at MOST, so let's say we aim for 2 oz during hand-feeding and no less - is it then okay to leave soup in the cage instead of kibble? This way, he has food if he does get hungry, plus he's also eaten about what he normally does in a day, under supervision, so we know he's getting enough nutrients?
2 oz of soup at a time is a full meal for him, so there's really no need to leave any in the cage unless it just makes you more comfortable to know that there's food available. But really, 2 oz is enough at one time. I've also heard that kibble is not equal to soup in how filling it is, so I'm thinking he is actually getting pretty full from a good session of hand-feeding. YES. Raw fed ferrets eat much less than kibble fed ferrets. Their little bodies can actually use almost everything they eat, and absorb much more nutrition, so there's no need to eat as often or as much. (That also means less poop.) it sounds like they can be very different in how much food they require or wantThey do require different amounts. Not always, but generally, males eat more than females, babies eat more than adults, they all eat more in the winter and less in the summer. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, and whether or not you think he might intentionally evade the soup if he knows we're leaving kibble every morning. He seems like he'll hold out for it, but I want to see if he'll move towards the soup overnight when he begins to feel it's the only option (and, of course, provided he continues eating 2 oz daily during hand-feeding). Ferrets are smart and manipulative, so it is entirely possible that he's holding out for the kibble (Slinkee did that for weeks - just absolutely refused to eat soup in the mornings because he knew mommy would give in and give him kibble). But it's more likely that he's just still full if he's eating 2 oz of soup at night. Is he also getting soup in the morning? If he's eating at least 3 oz of soup each day, you can just remove the kibble completely. My vet said he's still a baby, so (in her words) "he can go a day without eating". My thought is that he can definitely go on 2 oz (or more) a day if we're monitoring poops and activity levels. What do you think?
I'm going to question the other mentors about the vet's opinion. My opinion is that SINCE he's still a baby, he needs to NOT go a day without eating. But I would aim for 3 oz a day rather than 2. Re: the pinky mouse . He chewed and swallowed the head, he did not seem interested in swallowing any other part of it, though he did chew the feet. He doesn't seem too interested currently, so we'll save more tries with mice for the later future.
It seems that most fuzzies like the heads and feet I need to let him play more in between bites and just be patient. I tried this last night and he would do his rounds about the room, play in his tube, and then come over to me and sniff at the bowl. It was easier, then, to get him to eat for longer.
Ideally, we want him to just sit down and eat dinner. But I haven't yet heard of a ferret that does that consistently! Mine like to sniff their food and see if it's anything extra special, then go playplayplay and eat when they get locked back in prison. Believe it or not, the vet tried to give us ferretone and he didn't like it at all. She poured some in his mouth and he spat it out. She tried for 5 minutes and said she's never had a ferret who didn't like it. He does the same spitting thing with olive oil. That's the only other oil we've tried. So he doesn't seem to like any oils that we know of.
He's not the only one that doesn't like it. There are other ferrets on the forum that don't like it either. Minnie didn't like it at all when she first came home, but she sort of likes the 'tone/EVOO cocktail now and is learning that she gets to lick the bottle if she comes when I call her. If it's all okay with you... You know, my suggestions are just that - suggestions. You are the ferrants and the ones doing all the work, so you do what you feel is right. If I suggest something, that doesn't mean you're going to get in trouble if you don't do it! let me know what our goal is 3 oz is the goal for now. How it gets into him, from a spoon or from a dish, doesn't matter. How often he eats doesn't matter. If he gets 3 oz of raw soup per day, he's getting enough and you can remove the kibble. We hand-fed 2 oz of the soup this afternoon. No spoon for the majority of it. Woo!
What do you mean by hand-fed and no spoon? He was eating from the bowl, on his own, for 30 seconds at a time. This includes slices of chicken skin about 2 inches long and a cm or so wide. GO EZRA!!!! We also bought him a bowl with lower sides today and we'll use that to see if it's the limited vision he doesn't like about the taller bowl. The dish can make a difference. Hopefully this one will work better for him. We got an ice cube tray as well to have on hand for our next batch! As I said, no need to change if the baggie system works for you. But if you do use the ice cube tray, the cubes pop out easier if you rub a little EVOO in the tray before you pour the soup in. He also ate about 0.8oz of the soup we left in his cage today... so it seems he will eat it if he feels inclined.Good for him! I love the videos of him. He's such a cutie Since he's eating the thicker soup pretty well and chewing on skin, let's start adding in a few slivers. I found the best way to cut slivers was to 'shave' them from a frozen chunk of chicken. Try for 3 or 4 slivers the size of your pinky nail and see what he does with them. How are poops, activity, and weight?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 17:59:50 GMT -5
Hello again! Don't worry, we are fine with infrequent check-ins. If I post a lot, just consider it making sure I'vr covered my bases. When we were doing soups, it seemed to start souring after about 36 hours in the fridge and Slinkee wouldn't eat it. But if the baggies are working for you, there's no need to change it.Ice cube trays are a better idea, for sure. I wish I had thought of it myself! Did he chew it correctly with his back teeth? Yep, he seems to be chewing very naturally, and with his back teeth from what we can tell. We'll keep a close eye on him. (That also means less poop.)Can I just get a HALLELUJAH on this. The difference in poop smell is incredible! Is he also getting soup in the morning?Not supervised, but it is left out for him if he wants it. Ideally, we want him to just sit down and eat dinner.Ha, that'd be nice! You know, my suggestions are just that - suggestions.Understood! I know that I am new to this process and have yet to wrap my head around it, so I will definitely be more inclined to follow the book until I understand what is best. What do you mean by hand-fed and no spoon? When I say "hand-feeding", I mean that we intentionally coaxed him to eat, and supervised him. In this case, I brought him to the bowl and held his torso in place while he ate straight from the bowl. I guess I could call it a "supervised meal" instead, to avoid confusion! (giggle) Since he's eating the thicker soup pretty well and chewing on skin, let's start adding in a few slivers. I found the best way to cut slivers was to 'shave' them from a frozen chunk of chicken. Try for 3 or 4 slivers the size of your pinky nail and see what he does with them.Another great suggestion that I never would've thought of! THIS is why we need you! For these awesome mentor-y tips and tricks that will keep me from spending 3 hours trying to saw on raw chicken. We will go ahead and throw slivers in on Saturday night, because we're busy the rest of the day. I'll let you know how it goes. How are poops, activity, and weight?His poops are wonderful. Runny, but not liquid. They smell like flowers compared to kibble-brand poops! Activity is also great. He's hyper as always and Sam says he sees more "livelihood" and feels more energy coming from him since we started the raw soup. Weight has dropped by 0.2 lbs since 9 days ago when we started, but I am thinking that's okay because he's been playing a lot more, and he's got a biiig belly. It no longer drags on the floor so much and he looks a lot healthier to me. Should I start doing a daily post with his weight, etc?
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Post by gfountain on May 23, 2014 19:55:10 GMT -5
Don't worry, we are fine with infrequent check-ins. If I post a lot, just consider it making sure I'vr covered my bases.
Nah, I'm usually here a lot more than I have been these past few days. Things are starting to settle down for me again now, so I'll be checking in more often. he seems to be chewing very naturally, and with his back teeth from what we can tell. Back teeth is good.. he'll need the leverage and muscle strength when he gets to bones. (That also means less poop.) Can I just get a HALLELUJAH on this. The difference in poop smell is incredible!LOL, HALLELUJUH! It's already noticeably better, huh? Word of warning, USUALLY they will stink a whole lot worse during detox before they really get better.. poops as well as their bodies. They seem to exude stink from their pores during detox. I say usually because Slinkee never really did smell that bad, but Minnie - OH MY! She reeked, but fortunately hers didn't last long. She seriously smells like flowers now Is he also getting soup in the morning? Not supervised, but it is left out for him if he wants it.So he is or isn't eating soup in the morning? Do you have time to work with him some in the mornings? If you can be SURE that he's eating soup in the am, you can remove his kibble completely. Understood! I know that I am new to this process and have yet to wrap my head around it, so I will definitely be more inclined to follow the book until I understand what is best.
Well, actually the 'book' is more like tricks to get him to do what we want him to do. And the 'menu' is more guidelines than hard and fast rules. Do you have the frankenprey/whole prey menu that we're heading for? For some reason, I just assumed that you did. But regardless, I'll get it in here for you. When I say "hand-feeding", I mean that we intentionally coaxed him to eat, and supervised him. In this case, I brought him to the bowl and held his torso in place while he ate straight from the bowl. I guess I could call it a "supervised meal" instead, to avoid confusion!
Got it.. I was picturing you feeding him with your fingers and I really couldn't see you being excited about that, lol. This is good. Try to gradually wean him away from you needing to actually hold him there. I know he ate in the cage last night (or this morning?), but if you need to hold him at the dish, try loosening your grip and stroking him lightly so you're hand is still there but not really holding onto him. That way he'll get used to standing/sitting by himself rather than being held. tricks that will keep me from spending 3 hours trying to saw on raw chicken. Slicing thawed raw chicken = torture His poops are wonderful. Runny, but not liquid. They smell like flowers compared to kibble-brand poops!
Raw poops are never as 'normal' as kibble poops, and soup poops are always soft. Once he gets onto bone, they'll firm up again. Poops vary A LOT on raw, depending on what they've eaten. You'll get to the point where you can look in his litter box and tell what Sam fed him earlier, lol. Another word of warning, poops may get really funky over the next few weeks. If they get too soft, we can up the eggshell a little to prevent rectal prolapse. Activity is also great. He's hyper as always and Sam says he sees more "livelihood" and feels more energy coming from him since we started the raw soup. Activity is another great indicator for nutrition. If he's hyper and ferret-y, it means he's feeling good. And raw-fed ferrets generally have more energy than kibble ferrets... this could be good or bad, depending on whether he's inclined to mischief or not. Weight has dropped by 0.2 lbs since 9 days ago when we started, but I am thinking that's okay because he's been playing a lot more, and he's got a biiig belly. It no longer drags on the floor so much and he looks a lot healthier to me. Weight loss is normal for this time of year. He also may be losing some baby chub. Again, if activity and output is good, he's fine. Hold him up under his 'arms' and check out his shape. Kibble ferrets are usually pear-shaped. Once he's fully raw, his shape should change to be more tube-like with a bulge on one side (his spleen). Raw gives more muscle mass and less useless pudge. Actually, if you want to really SEE the difference, you should take a 'dangling' picture now, and then again in a couple of months. I didn't do that and I wish I had. Should I start doing a daily post with his weight, etc?Not necessarily daily, but at least once a week. Since this is your first summer with Ezra, it would be good to chart his weight gain/loss for future reference. Ferrets can lose up to 40% of their body weight in the spring/summer and it's good to have a reference for what is normal for Ezra.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 6:23:36 GMT -5
So he is or isn't eating soup in the morning? Do you have time to work with him some in the mornings?Right now, we do not have much time to work with him in the mornings on Tue, Wed, or Thurs, because we both wake up at 4:30am and have to be out of the house by 5am (waking up any earlier, we'd have to go to sleep at 8pm or so - ugh). However, we have alternating weekends off of work, so Sam has Fri/Sat off and I have Sun/Mon off, so THOSE days we can work with him for longer. Sam is at home right now and feeding him 2oz for a morning meal. I will be home the next 2 days and will do the same. At the end of the month, Sam starts a new job, and if all goes according to plan, he'll be starting a little later in the day, and should be able to work with him in the mornings (assuming he wants to wake up early for it... since soup is a temporary thing, I don't think he'll have a problem with it). Do you have the frankenprey/whole prey menu that we're heading for? For some reason, I just assumed that you did. But regardless, I'll get it in here for you.I have seen the frankenprey menu but I'm not sure where to find it again. And if there is a whole prey menu, I don't think I've ever seen that. Maybe you can shed some light on the process. Are we planning to move him onto a frankenprey diet and THEN move him over to whole prey? Also... last night, we chopped up a hopper mouse and mixed it in with the soup. (I know, I know - we are moving too fast here - but we had the mouse on hand, and our chicken thighs weren't frozen enough to cut slivers the way you described, so if I figured if he didn't eat it with the mouse in, we'd just serve a fresh batch of soup... Forgive me for being so ambitious... ) He acted weird at first, but then he got a taste and ate the rib cage and insides, he had no trouble with anything other than the lower jaw of the mouse. I can see why, because it was mostly bone and very rounded compared to the other bits. Some of the bigger furry strips of the mouse he just dragged around the room and didn't eat, but then seemed to get used to them and ate them once we presented them a few more times. I have a picture of how big the mouse was, and how big the slivers I chopped were, but I don't want to gross you out, so just let me know if you need them for comparison's sake. The chunks were about as wide as my pinky nail, and as long as a quarter. I figure this is the same concept we'd use with chicken chunks, except this will be the type of meat he'll actually eat eventually, and therefore it will be a smoother transition... I think... Anyway, the chicken should be frozen tonight, so we'll do that... Just wanted to mention how he did with the mouse. He also seems A-OK with chunks the size I described. The smell of a new protein is probably what threw him off at first, but he dug in pretty fast! Also, his poop had a chunk of fur in it this morning? Is that normal? I am not sure if he's supposed to digest the fur or just pass it... He's never eaten fur before. It kinda threw me for a loop seeing a hairball like that, but then I realized it was mouse fur. What are your thoughts on that? Should he be digesting the fur into poop? Another word of warning, poops may get really funky over the next few weeks. If they get too soft, we can up the eggshell a little to prevent rectal prolapse.I didn't know prolapse was a concern. Should we add extra eggshell just to be on the cautionary side for this? He's not straining when he poops, but the poops ARE rather liquidy. Not water, but not much more than jelly. I really don't want him to hurt himself. :/ Actually, if you want to really SEE the difference, you should take a 'dangling' picture now, and then again in a couple of months.We'll do this sometime this weekend! I'd really like to be able to compare. Ferrets can lose up to 40% of their body weight in the spring/summer40% I know that's an "up to" number, but that'd put him at just over a pound...! But I can see him thinning out a bit, and I am betting you are right about it being baby chub, plus the kibble roundness falling off. I'm glad it's not a concern and I'll update you weekly on any loss or gain. I'll put it in the spreadsheet daily just for the sake of keeping a record.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 6:28:01 GMT -5
Oh, I nearly forgot. I got video of how he's eating now. This was the batch with the mouse in it, and you can see him grab a chunk and chew it. Let me know what you think. I'm also just going to leave this for you.....
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