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Post by Jeremy's Boggle on Jan 24, 2014 10:30:10 GMT -5
They are up to about 2 tsp of chicken. They seem a bit better today so if that continues I'll give them the heart this evening.
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Post by katt on Jan 26, 2014 4:58:36 GMT -5
How are they doing?
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Post by Jeremy's Boggle on Jan 26, 2014 9:40:30 GMT -5
Poos were looking good so I gave them 1/2 tsp heart. They had some seedy loose poos yesterday. They are not awake yet today so I'll monitor them today & post how they look this evening.
They didn't object to the heart being added to their food.
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Post by katt on Jan 26, 2014 16:57:50 GMT -5
Poos were looking good so I gave them 1/2 tsp heart. They had some seedy loose poos yesterday. They are not awake yet today so I'll monitor them today & post how they look this evening. They didn't object to the heart being added to their food. Well hearts and organs tend to make for looser stools, they are also still within the adjust end period going from processed food to raw food. If the seedy poops continue that's not good, but one here and there isn't too concerning. How much chicken:rabbit are they eating now?
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Post by Jeremy's Boggle on Jan 26, 2014 22:24:30 GMT -5
2oz rabbit, 3 tsp chicken & 1/2 tsp chicken heart
Everyone has been out all day but I can't find any seedy poos in the room.
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Post by katt on Jan 26, 2014 23:02:11 GMT -5
2oz rabbit, 3 tsp chicken & 1/2 tsp chicken heart Everyone has been out all day but I can't find any seedy poos in the room. Great! Keep increasing the chicken, push them a little as long as they aren't stressing out over the food. I would go ahead and mix a little organ in at this point too, to start trying to balance them. Try to move them towards all-chicken too.
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Post by Jeremy's Boggle on Jan 27, 2014 22:25:09 GMT -5
George is happier with the food than Scarlett but she will eat it. I'm having to make sure George leaves her something to eat. Poos are a bit better.
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Post by katt on Jan 27, 2014 23:22:06 GMT -5
Feed them as much as they will both eat! lol They will probably be little piggies for a while and then settle down once their bodies have caught up nutrition-wise. I'm sure you know that though already with your big crew! haha As soon as you get them onto full-chicken meals, try introducing a new protein. So far so good, I'm pleased!
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Post by Jeremy's Boggle on Jan 28, 2014 22:21:37 GMT -5
How much heart & liver am I supposed to work them up to?
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Post by katt on Jan 28, 2014 22:53:00 GMT -5
How much heart & liver am I supposed to work them up to? Depends on how you want to feed. If you are going to be feeding it in a mix, then 10% heart 10% organ. If you are going to feed them on a more meal based schedule (with organ and heart meals vs mixed into their daily food), then you can start increasing the heart and organ in their food 5-6 meals a week and as it increases more down to 4 meals a week etc. It all just depends on what your final feeding goals are. I will say I am hesitant to encourage feeding your standard mix regularly for a few reasons that you may want to keep in mind when considering long-term feeding plans... 1) If they have a flare up and react to something, if feeding a mixed food you will not know what they are reacting to and may have a hard time convincing them to eat a single protein if they have become too imprinted on the Mix 2) If they have a flare up (esp for bad ones) and are fed a single protein throughout the flare up what occasionally happens is they develop a sensitivity to that protein. Their immune system is all up in arms and searching for any source(s) of the irritation/inflammation. It can then end up seeing this ingested protein and going "hmm maybe that's the problem? Lets attack it!" And then makes antibodies for that protein. If you are feeding a mix, they could become sensitive to the full Mix or to one protein in the mix and you'll be looking at a repeat food trial to narrow down what they will react to. 3) Possibly because of a process along the lines of what I just described, or possibly because who really knows, it seems that if IBD ferrets are fed a single protein consistently over long periods of time, they often tend to develop sensitivities to that protein. So if almost all they are getting is "the mix," then there is a chance they will develop a sensitivity and/or IBD flare ups related to "the mix." Of course there's a chance you could feed the mixed protein and be fine. Every IBD ferret is different, there is really no good way to predict how they will react to any one thing. It is up to you, I can't imagine trying to coordinate separate feeding schedules for a business your size. IF there is a way to keep them on separated proteins though, that would be the more suggested option. Something you may consider too that might be easier for you than a standard Frankenprey menu, would be to just keep their grinds separate from the main mix when you make it, but still feed daily grinds of just ONE protein rather than the mix. So say their chicken grind would have chicken meat, heart, liver, bone, but would only be chicken, no other animal. Then the next day could be the beef mix with beef meat and heart and kidney and liver, but no other animal. Etc etc. That way each mix is balanced, you can still use the same grinds you already use, but they would have separated proteins instead of a mix. Just some things to consider. You don't have to decide right away, for now just work them towards all chicken meals with 10% heart and 10% organ, and if/when you have an idea of how you would prefer to organize their diet whether a standard Frankenprey menu, or integrating with your standard mix, or feeding separate protein mixes, we can take it from there.
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Post by Jeremy's Boggle on Jan 30, 2014 12:36:21 GMT -5
We have achieved perfect poos & eating on their own on straight chicken with heart. Now to add the liver. I already have our cage set up so that 2 squares can be closed off as I have to separate Furby when I give whole bone in pieces as he can't eat them due to his enlarged lymph nod which presses on his stomach. Any large food pieces can cause a blockage risk.
It is something to think about as I know some adrenal ferrets develop IBD & I currently have 4 adrenal ferrets. How long do you usually feed a protein before you rotate to the next one?
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Post by katt on Jan 30, 2014 15:00:10 GMT -5
I typically don't feed the same protein more than 2-3 meals in a row. If I feed one protein too many times in a row they often times get mild flare ups. IBD does seem to go hand in hand with adrenal for some reason. I think the immune system of an adrenal ferret is under so much strain that they develop secondary issues. Koda's IBD improved an unbelievable amount once we got his IBD under control. Interestingly enough, Lupron helped some but Des made a miraculous difference in his IBD. He went from having constant flare ups and being borderline uncontrolled to having very minimal IBD symptoms. It was really quite astounding. That is great they are doing so well with the chicken! If they had an issue with it you would know by now. Other than the potential for developing irritation/sensitivity if fed the same thing for a long time, I'd say chicken appears to be a great protein for them thus far. I'm hopeful that since their IBD was initiated by ECE that it may not be as food-triggered as some IBD ferrets. It is possible that it may be more stress-triggered. I have both. Koda is definitely allergic to beef, and if I feed chicken too many times or when he is stressed, he reacts to it mildly (sensitivity). Stress does influence Koda's IBD too (anything that suppresses the immune system will potentially aggravate IBD), but not like Kenai - Kenai's IBD is VERY much stress triggered, but doesn't seem to be reactive to particular foods. Thank goodness for that because I can't imagine trying to balance multiple food allergies. >_< Anyways, definitely get them on some liver next. Try to get them eating a balanced mix with 10% heart and 10% liver (if you can get other chicken organs, add those in under the 10% liver-organs category too). You have access to bone-in chicken grinds correct? If so, I'd try to start working that in too so they can get used to chewing the bone chunks. Which protein would you like to try next after the organs get worked in? It's entirely up to you. My only suggestion is I always try to save beef for last because it has such a high occurrence of allergies and serious reactions. Avoiding flare-ups at all is the goal, and if you do get one it is nice to have multiple proteins to fall back on (so far you have rabbit and chicken so they are off to a good start). That's good that you have a way to separate feedings. How do they access food throughout the day?
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Post by Jeremy's Boggle on Jan 30, 2014 15:50:58 GMT -5
I put out food twice a day while they are in the cage. They normally eat the majority of it pretty quickly. If they ask for food in between feedings I put some out. Usually the 3rd meal comes about during the winter. I have started feeding a 3rd meal this week, it would usually have started earlier but it has taken a long time for their appetites to pick up after Grace's crossing. The main group is eating about 48oz of ground food a day.
We are a bit limited on sourcing organs locally. I get chicken gizzards. Primal's grinds are also available locally,they come with the organs mixed in. I know I can get turkey, duck, tripe & quail tomorrow when I go shopping. I'm a bit hesitant to do pork as so few of mine can eat it without having a serious case of diarrhea.
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Post by Jeremy's Boggle on Feb 1, 2014 20:42:59 GMT -5
Adding the liver has done a number on their stomachs. If it doesn't improve tomorrow I may need to remove it.
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Post by katt on Feb 1, 2014 22:40:38 GMT -5
Uh oh. What are poops like? It was chicken liver correct? They may do better with a different type of liver. They have to have liver for their diet to be balanced. I think in emergencies you can use Cod Liver Oil, I'll look into that for you.
Keep in mind that liver tends to make stools dark and tarry. It is also fairly rich, so you may need to introduce it more gradually. How much did you add, to how many meals, when did they start reacting, and WHAT is their reaction? (e.g. 1tsp for breakfast and they reacted before the next meal? Had some for breakfast and dinner but no reaction until the evening, etc.) What are their poops like (pictures are helpful) and any other symptoms?
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