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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2014 8:54:53 GMT -5
Well, we've been on chunks for about a month now. The grinds are only mixed in with warm water to give them a broth. My guys won't eat raw egg unless it is blended with grinds. Also, Skeeter hates oil, so if I mix it in the rest go nuts, but he won't touch it. He hates both oils - olive and salmon.
Last night I gave them 100% heart chunks. They all ate heart, but left a bit behind. Today, I fed them 100% organ meat chunks for breakfast (liver, kidney, lung, etc., and the tiny heart that was inside the rabbit). Again, they all ate it but left a bit behind.
Normally they clean the bowl spotless with the exception of maybe one or two chunks. I am concerned that they are leaving so much more meat behind after the "monitored" eating session. I will keep you posted.
I know you guys don't want me mixing, but what if I add a small bit of grinds with water as a broth/gravy/sauce for them? It might help them to like it better and eat more.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2014 13:02:39 GMT -5
That's fine if you mix some grinds to the point where they won't be able to separate the two too much. Another option would be to just make a soup with it. It's not so much a problem with mixing two things as it is feeding them in such small amounts throughout the week. If they will eat the hearts and organs as a soup with some grinds added to it for flavor, then that would be a fine option as well.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 13:23:37 GMT -5
OK here is what we did this past week, starting with our conversation last week about separating it out. each meal was approximately 6 oz. I cleaned and found out that when feeding them 10 oz. over the winter it was fine, but now they seem to be stashing more and it is just going bad (i.e. my whole basement smells like a morgue for critters). So each of these was weighed out at 6oz. total.
April 30th AM = everything mixed, but we'll call it edible bone-in for the purpose of this chart since the majority was bone-in rabbit chunks and pheasant grinds (with bones ground) April 30th PM = pork heart chunks May 1 AM = rabbit organ chunks (with 1 TBSP whole pheasant grinds for flavor). May 1 PM = edible bone-in rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole pheasant grinds for flavor). May 2 AM = edible bone-in rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole pheasant grinds for flavor). May 2 PM = muscle (boneless) rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole pheasant grinds for flavor). May 3 AM = pork heart chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole pheasant grinds for flavor). ***Noticed that with no roughage (fur or feathers), stool was looking soft*** May 3 PM = edible bone-in rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 4 AM = edible bone-in rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 4 PM = pork heart chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 5 AM = edible bone-in rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 6 AM = edible bone-in rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 6 PM = edible bone-in rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor).
So I have 1 meal of muscle meat, but 3 of heart, so the total for muscle meat balances out since heart is a muscle, but they're also getting more taurine which is a bonus. Do you or any of the mentors feed heart as your muscle meat meals completely? Would that be recommended?
I wasn't successful at getting them to eat chunks by themselves, but I am at least making sure the meal is a single chunk protein with the grinds for flavor like you said. I think of the grinds/water mix as "gravy" because they don't really eat it. They grab the hunk of meat and shake the grinds off and eat it. If I don't put the grinds in though, they don't like it. Maybe the grinds help to make the smell more appetizing?
I am looking into organ grinds because they really don't like the chunk organs at all. They ate the least and stashed the most from that meal and I want to make sure they get enough.
But the frankenprey menu overall was a success.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 14:07:24 GMT -5
Whoops...refreshed the page to see your edit and lost all I had typed (headwall) To sum up what I had said...Your menu looks good, just keep an eye on stools and if they're too dry then substitute a bone-in meal for muscle meat of some sort. And yes, I do use hearts for my muscle meats most of the time. Occasionally I'll give them turkey tails if I feel like they could use a fattier meal, but generally (especially since their main protein is duck) they don't need it. You don't have to do it this way, but if you find they like heart well enough then go right ahead! Nothing wrong with a little extra taurine. Your progress with chunks is fine as long as you're comfortable with it. If you want them to eat bigger chunks, then we can work on it after your graduation as well. My main concern now is just finding a way to feed organs that they agree with. Hopefully they'll approve of grinds/soups okay. If that works out then I can send Heather over to look things through and we'll hopefully be able to graduate you soon
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2014 14:02:42 GMT -5
So far we have had success as long as there are either ground cavvy or ground rabbit mixed into the chunks. This week's menu has been new and different, but before I post it, refresh my memory? Tongue counts as a muscle meat, but also contains Taurine, so its like heart in that it is a bonus to feed it, right?
Anyway, here it is: Note: The goat meat was the HT small goat bones with meat on them, and then I smashed them with my cleaver until the bones were much smaller and they were in the chunky strips the ferrets like. May 7 AM = goat lung chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor) May 7 PM = turkey heart chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 8 AM = edible bone-in rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 8 PM = edible bone-in rabbit meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 9 AM = edible bone-in goat meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 9 PM = edible bone-in goat meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 10 AM = edible bone-in goat meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 10 PM = edible bone-in goat meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 11 AM = turkey heart, pork tongue (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 11 PM = turkey heart, pork tongue (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). May 12 AM = turkey heart, pork tongue (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass cavvy grinds for flavor). ***This is what I have scheduled for the rest of this meal plan*** May 12 PM = quail chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). May 13 AM = quail chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). May 13 PM = quail chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor).
I still did one heart only meal, but for the muscle meats, I combined the heart and tongue.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 8:31:02 GMT -5
Hey just wanted to post here to detail our conversation on FB. I know you said I needed to feed Liver with Lung, so I dug some liver out of my freezer, thawed it and added it. It was still frozen, so it came off as a pulpy mush instead of actual livers, but I think that was a blessing in disguise. They don't particularly like liver, and since it was more of a grind, they ate it. I think they preferred it that way.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 12:49:29 GMT -5
Oh good! Well, if they ate it all without problem, then it looks like you're ready to graduate. I'll work on your exam in a few minutes
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 13:04:32 GMT -5
Final Exam.
1. What are some good emergency taurine sources if you run out of heart?
2. How can you tell if your ferret is getting too much or too little bone?
3. What percent of the diet should be organ mix?
4. Is it a good idea to mix muscle meat, bone in and organs all in one meal? Explain why.
5. How often does a healthy ferret need to eat? A sick ferret? How long is their digestion time?
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 13:26:32 GMT -5
1. What are some good emergency taurine sources if you run out of heart?
Brain is high in taurine if you can get it. Dark muscle meats, like thighs, contain Taurine but not in high enough amounts to use this as a primary source of Taurine. Tongue also contains Taurine. However, if you cannot get organs that contain Taurine, you can supplement with taurine powder. "The dosage is 500mg taurine per day, per ferret. You can buy loose taurine powder and weigh it on a small scale or buy capsules and break them open. You will have to supplement every day." (Reference: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/13404/little-education-on-taurine#ixzz31oAQehxf)2. How can you tell if your ferret is getting too much or too little bone?
You can tell by the poop. Runny poop means too little bone and dry poop indicates too much. Too much bone can also cause consitpation. 3. What percent of the diet should be organ mix?
If you're looking at a 7 day week, and assuming 2 meals per day, organ mix should make up 1 of the 14 meals, making it equate to 7% of the overall diet (mathematically). However, based on more recent details you gave me the ratio is 5% liver, and 5% other organs. 4. Is it a good idea to mix muscle meat, bone in and organs all in one meal? Explain why.
When making soup during a switch it is ok because the ferrets would have difficulty picking out the differnt types from the blend. However, when feeding a frankenprey diet, it is not recommended for multiple reasons: - Your ferret might eat all of one type and ignore the others, causing nutritional deficiencies. This can often be the case if you have multiple ferrets because you can't ensure they will all eat the proper amounts of each item. One might eat all of the hearts leaving none for the others.
- If your ferret has an adverse reaction, it is difficult to tell which of the items caused it, especially since each type of food may come from a different protein.
5. How often does a healthy ferret need to eat?
A typical feeding schedule is twice per day. Since ferrets are most active at dawn and dusk, it is helpful to align their feedings to that schedule. A sick ferret?
It depends on the illness. In Rufus, his Adrenal disease doesn't seem to impact his appetite and he eats regularly so I just feed him his normal twice a day and monitor him for any changes. With Insulinoma, since it is directly impacted by food, it requires food to be available around the clock. I need to ensure that Skeeter has food available so he is able to maintain his BG levels. Some medications require a specific feeding schedule (like eating 30 minutes before meds) as they can cause upset stomach, so you would align the feeding schedule to the dosage schedule. Ferrets who have a temporary illness need to be monitored. They might be eating regularly, or they might not be and require assistance. Ferrets who aren't eating willingly may need you to syringe feed them to ensure they get enough food and water. Hydration is important during periods of illness. How long is their digestion time?
Ferrets have a very short digestive tract and a high metabolism so their digestion time is around 3 to 4 hours.
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Post by Heather on May 16, 2014 13:08:19 GMT -5
Liver?? Could you please update your menu to reflect your most recent changes...thank you ciao
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2014 12:04:53 GMT -5
Sorry for the delayed reply. We had a weekend BBQ forced on us and I had to spend last week putting away three rooms of renovation materials and tools. INSANITY. However, here is last week's menu.
May 14 AM = edible bone-in quail chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). May 14 PM = edible bone-in quail chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). May 15 AM = turkey heart chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). May 15 PM = turkey heart chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). May 16 AM = turkey heart chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). May 16 PM = turkey heart chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). May 17 AM = edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). May 17 PM = edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). May 18 AM = edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). May 18 PM = edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). May 19 AM = edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). May 19 PM = lamb liver chunks with organ grinds (the ground organ blend from HT) May 20 AM = edible bone-in rabbit chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). May 20 PM = edible bone-in rabbit chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor).
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Post by Heather on May 28, 2014 14:06:31 GMT -5
Was the turkey hearts considered part of your meat only meals this week? I noticed when comparing both menus that you feed bone in meats at every meal (except with organ meals). How are your ferret's stools? I'm not saying it's wrong though usually there are a couple of meat only meals in a weeks menu but the menu is rather bone heavy. I also know that it's very dependent on the ferrets involved and for your ferrets this could be ok. I just have this question, other than this the menu looks good and just get back to me regarding this and I will graduate you :thumbsup: ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2014 21:56:37 GMT -5
For some reason, I am not getting the email alerts when the thread is updated, or I would have been on here much earlier to reply.
For the Muscle Meat meals, since McKenna told me that the Extra Taurine is good for them, I try to use Heart. Their edible bone meals consist of bone with meat on it. It is more meat than it sounds like, I don't cut all of the meat off the bones, and because I'm adding in the grinds for flavor, they get a little extra meat in the grinds. Think of it like when we eat Spare Ribs... except humans don't eat the bones. Their stools are good - not soft, but not hard either. Solid, but moist if that makes sense. They hold their form, but when I pick one up in a paper towel, I can easily smush it (I'm laughing, thinking about the fact that I would only have a conversation like this with other ferrents).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 11:45:04 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2014 15:30:30 GMT -5
Hello,
McKenna said you wanted to see the updated meal plan based on the discussions I had with Katt on Facebook about the number of Heart Meals per week.
OK for an adjusted 7 day meal cycle (assuming 2 meals per day) I would serve the following weekly: 2 heart 1 liver and organs 2 muscle meat 9 edible bone
So an example menu would be: Day 1 AM: edible bone-in quail chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). Day 1 PM: edible bone-in quail chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). Day 2 AM: turkey heart chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). Day 2 PM: turkey heart chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass rabbit grinds for flavor). Day 3 AM: mutton muscle meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). Day 3 PM: mutton muscle meat chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). Day 4 AM: edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). Day 4 PM: edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). Day 5 AM: edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). Day 5 PM: edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). Day 6 AM: edible bone-in cavvy chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). Day 6 PM: lamb liver chunks with organ grinds (the ground organ blend from HT). Day 7 AM: edible bone-in rabbit chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor). Day 7 PM: edible bone-in rabbit chunks (with 1 Tbsp. whole carcass pheasant grinds for flavor).
I hope this is ok.
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