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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 11:52:24 GMT -5
Oh yeah, quail is super easy to break down. probably my favorite protein to feed for that reason lol. I love that you're seeing so much personality shine through just from a slight change in meals And it will keep getting better as you increase the chunk size. You might even see a food fight sooner or later, which just a warning, is alarming at first, but they're usually harmless hiss fits. I love how into their meals they get when on raw, it makes it all worth it. I am doing well, thanks for asking I hope you get better soon!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 8:47:00 GMT -5
I'm a little upset. I had bulk ordered the grinds in December/January because of the shipping issues in November. Now I have a TON. However, since they're taking so well to chunks, I don't want them to regress if I keep serving them grinds. What do you think I should do? I have at least 10lbs of grinds left.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 15:53:58 GMT -5
Hmm, if you have the room, I would just save the grinds until you're sure they love chunks, then once or so a week give them grinds just to get rid of them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 12:24:29 GMT -5
If Candy wasn't so submissive, I think we would have had a food fight this morning. She carried a hunk of meat into her special spot and Rufus followed her. I heard immense hissing and hissing and hissing and then she ran away with the hunk in her mouth, but kept an eye on her spot. When Rufus went to another part of the room she ran back quickly. Rufus came back and there was more hissing. She's so nice that she wouldn't attack him - he is her bondy buddy - but she wasn't happy about the intrusion on her breakfast.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 8:49:51 GMT -5
OK, still doing great on meat hunks. They seem more excited about food times. Rufus now gives me kisses! Skeeter is very slowly - I mean glacially - allowing me to hold him more. Now instead of immediately thrashing for me to put him down, he sits for about 3 seconds. It's progress, I'll take it.
Today I will dress that collossal rabbit. The cavvy lasted a week, and the bag of four quail lasted me about two after that. This rabbit is enormous. I did order more from HT, but I ordered the rabbit parts. I think it will be a little easier on me during this chunks phase, if the meat is partially prepped. I know I'll still have to deal with the cavvy, but at least the rabbit will be easier going forward.
This week's menu is pig hearts, quail chunks, cavvy whole carcass grind and turkey grinds (no feathers).
Last week's menu was pig hearts, quail chunks, rabbit whole carcass grinds and duck grinds (no feathers).
I should also specify the ratio of grinds to chunks: I am giving about one tablespoon of each type of grind per meal (not per ferret), mixed with warm water to make the broth they love so much. The rest is chunks of heart and the whole prey protein. So they're up to like 80% or more of the chunks.
I've been trying to switch it up. After the rabbit chunks are available, I'll probably switch to pheasant whole carcass grinds. In addition to giving 3+ different proteins per week, I never like to overload them with one type of protein (poultry, rodent, etc).
Hope all is well with you. That camping trip looked wonderful. We've had 80 degree weather for the last few days but its supposed to snow again tomorrow. I wish they'd just pick a temperature and stick with it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 11:15:18 GMT -5
Theia was the same way as Skeeter when I first got her. She hated being held, and would thrash and bite to get put down. To work through that I would randomly throughout the day just pick her up off the floor and carry her to another area in the room and put her down, so it didn't seem like i was putting her down because she wanted me to. As she got used to being picked up and carried and adjusted to me in general, the time I was able to hold her increased. Now she actually asks to be picked up and cuddles for a few minutes before wanting down. It's slow progress, but progress nonetheless.
Ordering rabbit parts would definitely be easier lol. As for grinds, I personally see no problem with feeding grinds as a part of your menu as long as you're not seeing them hold out for it and they're eating enough whole meals to keep their dental health up.
Before you graduate, I'd like to see a few full menus (as we discussed). With as much detail as you can manage, showing what meals they got each day (for example Monday: Am - pig hearts. Pm - quail chunks) followed by a break down of how many bone-in, muscle, heart, and organ meals are in the menu posted. This menu can also be made up if you'd rather that. I'm just looking to see if you've got all the portions correct and can make up a menu from thin air if needed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 12:23:38 GMT -5
Hey there. I very much cater to my guys. I know it is recommended to separate out the meals so that you do bone-in for one meal, hearts for another, muscle meats for another. I find that my guys do not eat if there is a single option. They're a lot like their mother.
For example: If I were to have a plate with only broccoli, I probably wouldn't eat that much, but if you give me broccoli with steak, I'll eat it all. Does that make sense?
So when I gave only hearts, they barely touched it. When I gave muscle meat only, they barely touched it. When I give them a mixture, they go crazy. I make sure that they're not only eating one thing because I watch them eat every meal. They will munch on a hunk of heart and when finished, they switch to a chunk with bone (with muscle attached). I've found grinds left behind and scattered around the bowl (Rufus scatters the grinds when he shakes his chunks - any grinds attached to them go flying).
They drink the broth and lap up the grinds trying to get to the chunks, but they don't really care about them. I do the water, more to warm the meat than anything, but also because Skeeter like it to wash the horrible Pred taste out of his mouth. I think I mentioned that I have him eat first and then when he walks away from the bowl after getting his fill, that is when I dose him. After he gets his meds, he runs right back to the bowl to wash out his mouth (like a grindy brothy chaser).
So, we're looking at the following ratios in every meal: 1 oz HT whole carcass grinds (includes meat, bone, organs, and fur or feathers) 1 oz MPC grinds (includes meat, bone, and organs, but no fur or feathers) 7 oz chunk protein (my chunks include bones with meat on them, meat only, organs - it is all mixed together and I try to make sure there is a little of everything - it is mostly chunks of bone with meat on it though) 1 oz heart chunks (because you said its good for them to have the extra taurine)
So, I think that overall they're getting the recommended 64% Edible Bone-in Meat, followed by 21% muscle meat, 7% Heart and 7% Organs.
I think maybe I spoiled them too much. Jason gives his ferrets a frozen tupperware of meat and they go wild opening it and eating it. My spoiled babies want it warmed up, and with an assortment. *sigh* I've created my own monsters.
If it weren't for Skeeter's Insulinoma, I would be more forceful with serving one type of item at a time (hearts only meal, bone-in only meal), and then let them "eat or go hungry" as my Nonna used to say. I get so nervous about his BG that I serve what will get them to eat heartily, which is the mixture.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 12:36:23 GMT -5
There's no problem with mixing everything - I'm the same way, I like little bits of multiple things in my meals. I don't like just eating chicken, I'd rather have brown rice and veggies with it. The only thing with this, is it can be more complicated to know if they're getting all the required amounts each time the meals are mixed. It also can create the same issue Jason is currently dealing with; he used to mix his proteins, but then his girl Wilma began getting horrible allergic reactions, and since all of the proteins were mixed, it was hard to for him to single out the offender. So just keep that in mind. Now, that said, the ratios should be 80% meat, 10% heart, 5% liver, and 5% other organs. We've been upping taurine requirements because 1: it's pretty hard to overdose and taurine is essential to healthy animals, and 2: most people can only get chicken hearts and the like, which are one of the lowest taurine sources available, so we need to increase the amount they get to make up for it. Plus we can just replace a muscle meat meal with hearts and so it's not a difficult adjustment.
So if they're getting 10 ounces a meal, the 1 oz of heart does reach the 10% requirement, plus the little bit of additional heart they get from the whole carcass grinds. As long as the "chunk protein" does include some liver and other organ, I'd say that looks balanced.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 13:19:26 GMT -5
Well actually, its funny you mention that. I read Jason's entire thread on what he's going through because I had to do the same thing. We did the elimination diet when I first got them and found out that chicken gives them all green, runny poop. That is why I don't get it anymore - not even Chicken Hearts. It made my guys get IBD symptoms (except Trigger, who eats anything).
The chunk protein contains whatever is in the animal I butcher. I do have organs in the freezer from when I went crazy buying them all at the end of the year. Quail have pretty small organs and Cavvy aren't much larger. Since the ratio is 5% liver and 5% other organs I wasn't too worried. However, I can always add a little extra if I get an animal with particularly small organs. I do have them on hand.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 11:11:11 GMT -5
Okay, so other mentors are still concerned about feeding mixed proteins, especially when it comes to organs, as they are essential to a healthy ferret and when mixed there is always the chance that sometimes a ferret won't eat enough, which overtime can lead to detrimental health. Most of our mentors won't graduate someone feeding a mixed menu because of the severity of this issue. If you insist that this is the feeding style you feel is best, then I will talk to Heather about it, but I strongly urge you to at least feed organs separately.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 12:14:38 GMT -5
Sorry, I never saw this post. I'm glad you messaged me that it was here.
I understand the concern but which is worse (and keep in mind Skeeter's insulinoma)? Having them eat a mixed meal, in which I hand them heart and organ pieces, so that I can ensure they're eating the right balance, or serving them a meat of all hearts, which 3 out of 4 (Skeeter being 1 of the 3) will turn their nose up on and not touch? I can't have him not eat. They will starve themselves, rather than eat the single serve.
I would understand the balancing of meals as an issue if I put the bowl down and walked away, but I count out the heart chunks because I know how critical they are. For example, lets say that 8 chunks gives me the right number of oz. to balance my meal. I serve it to the ferrets in the bowl, but I end up pulling pieces out so that I hand feed them 2 heart pieces each for that meal. Once they're done with the hearts, they can go to town because the way I cut up my Rabbit, there are chunks with bone in almost all of them and the grinds have ground bone too, so they get the meat and bone together.
I will try it out the way you guys want me to do it, but the minute Skeeter refuses to eat, I will give him the mixed blend. Keeping him alive and me hand-feeding the hearts and organs to ensure they each get enough is more important than feeding the proteins separately in my book. I don't mind the extra time it takes me to micro-manage their eating.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 12:28:50 GMT -5
The problem here is, if they aren't eating hearts alone, then chances are some days they won't eat them in the mix either, which would throw off your balance. Hearts are just like any other piece of raw, they need to get used to it and switch onto eating it and then they'll eat it fine whenever it's offered. Just like getting them onto different proteins, we need to wean them on to hearts and organs. Also, at this point they shouldn't need to be hand fed. It's one thing to feed Skeeter by hand if he crashes, but they should all be eating what is offered without you hand feeding them. It's impractical to have to rely on making sure they're balanced by hand feeding them what they need. What if you're sick, or when you go on your trips out of town and need someone to feed the ferrets? Most people won't be willing to feed by hand, and in most cases won't know what to make sure they eat to ensure balance.
We don't have as much of an issue with mixing muscles and bone proteins, especially since you don't bulk prepare so it would be easier for you to work out allergies, but organs and hearts are vital. If they (especially Skeeter) won't eat them alone, then we need to take some time and go through the switching process to get them used to hearts alone before you can graduate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 12:39:10 GMT -5
Another option, which I have mentioned before in the past, would be to get organ and heart grinds if you want to mix it all. That way we know they can't pick through them. As long as they eat bones fine, I don't see a problem in feeding their organs as grinds, you can even mix some egg and salmon oil into the mix to up the appeal, and feed that mixture either daily as you have been, or once a week if they accept it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 12:41:04 GMT -5
Gotcha. Okie dokie. So, how do you recommend I go about that. They eat them fine when mixed with other "flavors" so how do I go about getting them to eat them without? Just more time? Hand feed them plain until they start eating it without me hand feeding? What is the best approach?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 12:49:12 GMT -5
Would you rather feed them as a grind, or do you want to move to whole pieces? For grinds, see how they respond to just an egg and a drizzle of oil mixed in, if that doesn't work, add a bit of HT grinds if you have any more until they get used to it without the grinds. If you want to work on chunks, it's the same process as getting them used to proteins. Start small, increase as they adjust. Maybe try giving the hearts before other meats, etc. until you see that they all willingly eat the hearts without hesitation or holding out for other meals.
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