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Post by Heather on May 5, 2011 13:01:47 GMT -5
I hope this is where I'm suppose to post this Name:Steph HF Forum Username: CarpetSharks37 1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? I read about them in Ferrets for Dummies ;D 2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
I think I would like to FULLY switch to a raw diet, but possibly keep some kibble or freeze-dried in there, or just freeze-dried as treats. I'm pretty much open to whatever at this point, if I can get them eating just raw, that would be great. I do not particularily want to feed whole prey - definitely not up to feeding live, frozen mice maybe.. but that's a big maybe, I'd have to work my way up to it. ;D
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? Because there are no kibbles on the market that I feel 100% good about feeding, and I love the benefits of raw: overall improved health, less frequency of diseases, no dental cleanings needed, and shiny silky coats!
4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?
Absolutely. I have 4 wonderful months of summer free from school and barely working part-time, and even if it does take longer than 4 months, I'm also willing to stay committed once school starts.
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight?
2 Ferrets - Olivia and Sophie - Born Feb 28/2011 (just over 2 months of age) - Both female - No health problems that I know of (will see vet soon for initial checkup) - I don't consider them to be underweight or overweight.
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc)
They were on Living World Ferret Extrusion Diet (yuck!) at Petland and are now eating a softened mix of that, Evo Ferret, plain raw pureed pumpkin, and extra virgin olive oil. I also have Go! Turkey Duck and Chicken that I may or may not add to that mix and will be trying some freeze-dried Wysong Archetypal as I want to get them on a somewhat decent kibble and/or freeze-dried as they are not interested in raw at all (offered raw chicken wings) and I want to have them on something better than the living world food while they are switching
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
No I have not. I did offer them delicious raw chicken wings tonight but they turned up their noses multiple times.
8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
I am excited to try whatever is suggested and willing to do whatever it takes to get my girlies on the best diet possible!
9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?
Every single day (and night), I'm almost always on here. ;D
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).
Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (Hurricanekatt) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by katt on May 5, 2011 13:16:00 GMT -5
Hi! Here's just a little about me... Name: Katt HF Screen Name: HurricaneKatt Location: Anchorage, Alaska About Me: My favorite hobby is... studying. Just kidding. I like to do different types of art including drawing and painting. I recently started making dream catchers too. I enjoy horseback riding, playing with my critters, and enjoying time with my boyfriend. And the critters of course! I am a premed student in Alaska graduating May 1(weew! SO close! lol) with a Biology degree. I’ll be taking a year off to enjoy myself, work on my application, and visit Africa before applying for Medical School in the next round. I became a mentor because...I really like helping people (hence the whole wanting to be a doctor thing ) and animals. I am a strong supporter of a natural diet and probably bore most people that I meet to death ranting about raw diet and why it is the best way to go…this way I can rant to someone who actually cares! About My Ferrets: Koda – male, Real Canadian, just over a year old (he was about 8 weeks old when I bought him in December 2009), Sable. I gave him raw the second he came home and neither of us has ever looked back. He is a real trouble maker and is pretty well known around the forums as such. He is my first, and so far only, ferret and though I have not had him long he has forced me to learn and learn FAST! He has managed to eat several rubber objects (had to have surgery!), and is constantly finding new trouble to get into. Loves digging the carpet up, has a very serious oral fixation (if his mouth can stretch wide enough for his teeth to touch it – he will chew it), will rearrange the room to reach things, has learned how to levitate, and is an all around little monster. He is also very strongly bonded to my boyfriend and I, and can be a huge love bug. When the endless energy is finally burned off, he will curl up in our laps, give us kisses, and fall asleep. As you can tell, I have this problem where I can’t stop talking about him or taking pictures of him… We recently discovered that he has IBD and I am actually working with Mustelidmusk on adjusting his diet to keep his belly aches under control. Right now it is still hit and miss. Kneai: I brought Kenai home towards the end of November. He is also eating 100% raw diet, whole prey, franken prey, meaty bones you name it! He was a tiny little bag of bones when I brought him home, but he eats like a pig and grows like a weed! He is now huge and rolly-polly! definitely a little porker - he can barely make it out of his rice box because he is so bottom heavy. lmao He is a silver mitt/black roan mitt. haha He loves, LOVES toys and is a loveable, goofy little guy and has been helping to keep Koda company and burn off each others energy! He's definitely a little spaz - I though Koda was until I got Kenai! He's a bit of a simpelton, but we love him just the same. About My Natural Feeding Experience: I've been feeding raw since December 2009 when I brought Koda home. Thanks to this forum, I was ready for a fuzzball to come home with my freezer stocked with meats! I gave him a raw chicken wing his first night home and that was the end of that! He is fed frankenprey, f/t roents, and live prey. Unfortunately, his diet is somewhat restricted because of his IBD, but we've finally got a bit of variety back in. I have been reading and learning since before I brought Koda home and learned a lot from the people here on the forum. I am always on the forum, and various websites trying to learn more about ferrets in general, and especially raw diet. My boys are healthy, energetic, have super soft fur, and smell so good that people regularly comment, asking me what perfume or spray I sprayed them (esp Koda) with! I love telling them: Thanks to a raw diet - he just smells that good naturally! When Kenai first came home he had been eating Marshall's kibble and his poop smelled...awful doesn't even come close to describing it! Now he smells much better and his scraggly coat has been replaced by a luxurious pile of fur. Type of Mentor: In Training! I feed frankenprey, raw meats, bone-in meats, ground meats, frozen/thawed rodents, live prey, and recently added (for treats and supplemental) freeze dried raw. I have never fed kibble so I can’t help a ton there on picking a good kibble… but hopefully we can get rid of it entirely anyways. My Specialty: Trouble makers! Especially only ferrets, and kits. I am excited to get started!
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Post by katt on May 5, 2011 13:22:37 GMT -5
Ok so I know you have your girls eating ground raw, but I have been out for a bit and am not quite caught up on your other thread. So to start out give me the rundown of your feeding schedule with as much detail as possible. Do you feed meals and take the food away, or do you free range feed (full time access to food)? What kinds of food are they getting when? And exactly what foods have your tied, and what foods will they eat? Once I know that we will get started!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 14:44:58 GMT -5
Just realized I have a mentor! Hurray I am very happy to work with you hurricanekatt! So here is a bit of history of my girls and what they are eating currently: -I just got them both last Saturday from Petland, they are just over two months old and were born on February 28, 2011. -They were eating crappy ferret kibble, not softened, at the pet store (Living World Extrusion Ferret Food) -I got them switched to mushy mix of the Living World and Evo Ferret Kibble within the first 2 days of owning them -They are no longer eating any kibble though and have been eating Wysong Archetypal 1 Freeze-dried (rehydrated) and Ziwipeak DailyCat Lamb Freeze-dried (rehydrated) since Tuesday night. -I feed them 3-4 times a day, alternating meals (one meal with the Ziwipeak lamb, next meal with the Wysong Archetypal), I leave the food out for 3-5 hours at a time, or until I change it for their next meal -They do almost always have some food in the cage, but I only give them enough to eat over night so that they won't be hungry, but that there wont' be enough left over to spoil (and that way they go hungry for a few hours in the morning - this is when I try out new raw food ;D) -I am also mixing in pumpkin and extra virgin olive oil with each meal (trying to aim to get 1 tsp of pumpkin into each of them a day and 1/2-1 tsp olive oil into each of them a day) As far as other raw food goes: -Yesterday they had raw ground turkey for the first time and loved it! They hiss and run off with it and are quite happy. -They like to eat their food in their litter boxes though, which drives me crazy so if you have a suggestion on an easy to make feeding den that would be great! -Last night they had raw ground chicken mixed in with their archetypal 1 rehydrated freeze dried (also chicken based) -This morning they had diced raw chicken chunks mixed in with their archetypal 1 (I try to keep the proteins the same at meal time) -I also sprinkled some crushed egg shell on their food this morning (I have a possible egg allergy so I don't really like using egg but I was desperate because their poop is GROSS) My main concern right now is that they aren't getting enough bone or that they aren't tolerating the raw very well because their poop is runny, seedy and full of mucous. It was even green this morning. We have a vet appointment tonight so hopefully I'll get stool samples tested for bacteria but I'm not sure if they just need more bone or if they don't tolerate certain kinds of raw or what. I am also picking up some ground bone meal today, and will be buying some chicken hearts, smaller chicken necks, giblets if I can find them and hopefully some kind of bone they can eat... What I am wondering is what's the best kind of bone in meat to get them? Should I try beef and lamb and things besides chicken and turkey? I really don't want to make their poop any worse though... Sorry for the question overload! I am happy to have you as my mentor!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 18:19:51 GMT -5
Just wanted to add that their poop *seems* to be self-correcting now and that I purchased bone meal today (bison bone meal) and am now adding that to their food.
I also purchased small chicken necks and some beef organ patties.
To make things easier here's a list of the raw food that I CURRENTLY have in my house:
-Freeze Dried Wysong Archetypal 1 (Chicken based with bone and some organs in it) -Freeze Dried Ziwipeak Lamb (lamb based with organs in it, no bone) -Amore Raw Chicken Wings -Urban Carnivore Beef Organ Patties (contain: finely ground liver, heart, kidneys, tongue, spleen and lungs) -Carnivora Chicken Necks -Raw Ground Turkey Breast -Raw Ground Chicken Breast
I'm not going to try any of the new stuff until they've seen the vet tonight, get a clean bill of health (hopefully) and their poop settles for another day or so.
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Post by katt on May 6, 2011 13:22:47 GMT -5
-I feed them 3-4 times a day, alternating meals (one meal with the Ziwipeak lamb, next meal with the Wysong Archetypal), I leave the food out for 3-5 hours at a time, or until I change it for their next mealHow much do you feed them each time? The food will not go bad if it is left out. Raw soupies lasts 6-8 hours, ground raw lasts about 12-18 hours, whole raw meat, bones lasts 24-48 hours and whole prey typically lasts 48 hours. Raw tends to dry out before it starts to spoil. And ferrets will not eat bad food unless they are starving. -They do almost always have some food in the cage, but I only give them enough to eat over night so that they won't be hungry, but that there wont' be enough left over to spoil (and that way they go hungry for a few hours in the morning - this is when I try out new raw food ;D)See above. You want to make sure they are getting enough, and they will self regulate on a raw diet. Rule of thumb is that it's best to feed enough so that there is always just a little bit left. This way you know that they ate their fill - if it is all gone then you don't know if they wanted more. Am I making sense? ;D haha When we are trying new foods though, yes we want them to be a little hungry - sometimes a lot hungry depending on how stubborn they are being. So this is ok for now, but after they are fully switched keep in mind that there should always be "enough." -I am also mixing in pumpkin and extra virgin olive oil with each meal (trying to aim to get 1 tsp of pumpkin into each of them a day and 1/2-1 tsp olive oil into each of them a day)This is good. It helps to replace the fur and feathers they would eat in the wild. Good fiber. For the oil, I would see about finding fish oil or salmon oil, and limiting the oil to maybe once or twice a week and more during shedding season. You don't want to lube up their systems too much. The amount you are feeding is fine but I would still limit it to a few days a week. -They like to eat their food in their litter boxes though, which drives me crazy so if you have a suggestion on an easy to make feeding den that would be great!Check out the cage and bedding part of the forum there should be some threads there. I use a rubbermaid box with a hole cut in the side. Easy to clean! It will not eliminate stashing but it reduces it. And unfortunately, some ferrets just like their food "breaded." I have found that Capri Sun boxes, or other cardboard boxes, work very well also. Use for a few days then toss when it gets too messy. -I also sprinkled some crushed egg shell on their food this morning (I have a possible egg allergy so I don't really like using egg but I was desperate because their poop is GROSS)There is no need to use egg. It is normal for their poops to be all sorts of strange at the beginning of the switch. I'll get to this in a bit. But egg and egg shell aren't necessary and if you are allergic just do not use eggs period. My main concern right now is that they aren't getting enough bone or that they aren't tolerating the raw very well because their poop is runny, seedy and full of mucous. It was even green this morning. We have a vet appointment tonight so hopefully I'll get stool samples tested for bacteria but I'm not sure if they just need more bone or if they don't tolerate certain kinds of raw or what.I will get back to this. I am also picking up some ground bone meal today, and will be buying some chicken hearts, smaller chicken necks, giblets if I can find them and hopefully some kind of bone they can eat...You need to be careful with the bone meal. It is easy to overdo it. The hearts, necks, and giblets will be good. Let me know if they eat any of them. What I am wondering is what's the best kind of bone in meat to get them? Should I try beef and lamb and things besides chicken and turkey? I really don't want to make their poop any worse though...Chicken (whole, wings, back, ribcage, leg...), Cornish game hen, Turkey necks. And yes we will get them eating a very wide variety of meat - the more the better! Sorry for the question overload! I am happy to have you as my mentor!!! Ask away! That is why I am here!
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Post by katt on May 6, 2011 13:53:55 GMT -5
Ok the poops. What you are describing is normal. You haven't had these girls very long. They are under a LOT of stress. They were ripped from their mother, put into surgery, tossed in a box and shipped around tossed in more boxes, thrown into a small glass tank with people poking and staring all day and fed hard kibble that cut their little gums and didn't taste like mommy's milk and... then next thing they are tossed in another box and brought to this strange new place filled with amazing and frightening and exciting and strange things to explore, and a big comfy cage full of soft bedding. They are given this strange new food, then more strange food... They are absolutely overwhelmed. They are under soo much stress and are still settling in. On top of that, it takes time for their GI tracts to adjust to the new diet. It can take weeks. Kenai had the green poops when he came home, and he had slimey, mucousy poops for several weeks after that. Those sound like stress poops to me. A check for parasites and for ECE will not go amiss of course. Let me know if they do find anything. But I would say they are just adjusting to their new life and their new diet. Totally normal and will calm down in time. If the bad poops continue, we can experiment. Chicken sensitivities are not uncommon and can be dealt with. My Koda is allergic to beef, sensitive to chicken, and has IBD. I am still able to give him a varied, balanced diet and keep his IBD under control, it just takes some trial and error and fiddling with things. Like I said, don't get all stressed out it sounds like normal stress poops to me. Possible bacteria in poop from compromised immune system due to stress, and GI tract adjusting to the new diet. Nothing out of the norm, and totally manageable. Your vet will tell you if it is anything to be concerned about.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2011 15:28:36 GMT -5
Thanks hurricankatt!
The vet was not the least bit concerned that their poops were doing funky things, I brought samples but she said it wasn't even worth it to test them because of the new home, stress and diet change being the likely culprit as you said.
There is actually food in their cage at all times, and there always leftovers, so it's not like their eating it all and then going hungry. I have been hand feeding them the raw too a bit to make sure they're getting enough in them.
For the olive oil, they were both making hairball hacking noises so I just wanted to get their pipes lubed up good so nothing got stuck. But do you think I should only give it every other day or every couples days now? I've been using a few drops of it to entice them to eat new foods too and it seems to be working, but I can cut back if you think I should.
The bone meal, I am just adding a couple sprinkles of to the meals that don't contain bone (the ziwipeak has no bone and neither does the ground raw meats) because their poops go really icky otherwise. I don't add it when their getting the wysong because it has bone or when their eating other things that have bone. Is that okay?
The girls both had their first chicken necks this morning! Sophie only ate the meat, not so much the bone but Olivia ate almost all of hers an then almost all of the bone that Sophie left. I actually only gave them half a chicken neck each to start.
How should I convince Sophie to give the bones a try?
And I guess I'm a little lost on what to do next?
Here's what they're having today:
-last night they had wysong archetypal freeze dried -this morning they had tiny chicken necks and ground raw chicken (sprinkled with a tiny bit of bone meal) + pumpkin / olive oil -now I'm going to feed them some freeze dried ziwipeak lamb with a tiny bit of bonemeal (it has no bones and gives them runny poop without the bone meal) and pumpkin -later I'll try more chicken necks -then they'll get wysong at night again with pumpkin
Does that seem okay? Or should I be changing anything?
They girls both tried their first chicken necks today! Sophie only ar
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Post by katt on May 6, 2011 19:07:23 GMT -5
The vet was not the least bit concerned that their poops were doing funky things, I brought samples but she said it wasn't even worth it to test them because of the new home, stress and diet change being the likely culprit as you said. perfect There is actually food in their cage at all times, and there always leftovers, so it's not like their eating it all and then going hungry. I have been hand feeding them the raw too a bit to make sure they're getting enough in them. Also perfect. For the olive oil, they were both making hairball hacking noises so I just wanted to get their pipes lubed up good so nothing got stuck. But do you think I should only give it every other day or every couples days now? I've been using a few drops of it to entice them to eat new foods too and it seems to be working, but I can cut back if you think I should.If you think they might have fur balls it is good to give, and it is definitely a good tool to use for enticing them to eat new foods. I'd cut back to every other day and see how they do. The bone meal, I am just adding a couple sprinkles of to the meals that don't contain bone (the ziwipeak has no bone and neither does the ground raw meats) because their poops go really icky otherwise. I don't add it when their getting the wysong because it has bone or when their eating other things that have bone. Is that okay?Sounds good, just be sure not to add more than a light sprinkling because it can be over done. And honestly, it is okay for their diet to be a little off balance for a while it will settle into the proper balance and variety pretty quickly here, and their GI tract will start to adapt too. Keep up the bone meal for now since it is helping their poops, but we will eventually phase that out. It is very good to hold onto though (how long does it stay good?) even after they are eating a fully balanced diet. If you ever have a sick ferret who needs to eat soupies for a while the bone meal would be a good way to keep their calcium levels normal while still allowing them to eat soft foods. The girls both had their first chicken necks this morning! Sophie only ate the meat, not so much the bone but Olivia ate almost all of hers an then almost all of the bone that Sophie left. I actually only gave them half a chicken neck each to start.Yay! Good girls! How should I convince Sophie to give the bones a try?Do you have a hammer? smash the bones (nice and pulverized) up so that the marrow is exposed. The marrow is all kinds of yummy. If she still seems uninterested, pick up a little piece of marrow and try hand feeding it, or even adding a drop of oil. Let me know how she likes bones once you try that. And I guess I'm a little lost on what to do next? That's what I'm here for! I am at work and my access it hit and miss so I wanted to at least get to your questions. I have better access from home (aka no manager popping in and out ;D ). Here's what they're having today:
-last night they had wysong archetypal freeze dried -this morning they had tiny chicken necks and ground raw chicken (sprinkled with a tiny bit of bone meal) + pumpkin / olive oil -now I'm going to feed them some freeze dried ziwipeak lamb with a tiny bit of bonemeal (it has no bones and gives them runny poop without the bone meal) and pumpkin -later I'll try more chicken necks -then they'll get wysong at night again with pumpkinOk so we need a shopping list. See if you can get some chicken breast. They should eat it no problem after eating the necks. If they don't like it whole, chop it up and try that way. If they still won't eat it scruff and stuff, then mix it with the ground. I don't think you will have trouble though. Have you tried chicken hearts yet? I would cut back on the F/D and start feeding more raw. The FD will stay good for a long time in the fridge and I recommend still feeding it here and there if you want to keep them familiar with it. This makes life easier if you have to go out of town and have a squeamish pet sitter. But they are eating raw now, so why not just feed them raw? If they have some yucky poops, don't stress out too much. Keep this in mind about the poops. Strange poops, bad poops, are normal in the beginning like we talked about earlier. However, raw is very different from kibble and even FD. Every meal, every food is different, and their poops will be entirely different based on what hey have eaten. Boneless meals will give softer poops, meals containing heart and/or organ will produce black runny poops due to the high blood content of those tissues. Beef and bison poops tend to be much darker than say chicken poops. Pumpkin poops will be slightly more orange and solid, meals with skin and fat might have some seeediness. Boney meals will potentially produce poops with tiny bone fragments left over. Whole prey poops look like a braided rope almost.... ;D Kibble and FD are uniform in texture and typically produce uniform poops. Kibble looks the same coming out as it does going in. Some soft poops are ok. If they are Always soft, then you run into increased risk of prolapse, but soft poops here and there, or even for a few weeks, are not always a bad thing. Try them on chicken breast, and try the neck some more like I said. Also see how they take to chicken heart if you can get any. I know it is hard to find in some places. Some meats to add to the near future shopping list: pork beef whole turkey (necks, wings, breast, gizzard, whatever other parts you can find) cornish game hen lamb meat goat hearts (from various animals) chicken gizzards chicken wing rabbit duck organs from as many different animals as possible: liver, kidney spleen Don't necessarily worry about going out and buying these all right now, but start looking around for them. Asian and African and other Ethnic markets are a GREAT resource. Let me know what kinds of stuff you can find.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2011 1:45:09 GMT -5
If you think they might have fur balls it is good to give, and it is definitely a good tool to use for enticing them to eat new foods. I'd cut back to every other day and see how they do. Sounds good I will cut them back to 1 tsp each every other day. The hacking noises have stopped now so I assume the pumpkin is finally doing it's part for the hairballs. Should I be feeding the pumpkin mixed in with every meal? I mean obviously you can't mix it with the necks, wings, etc. But any time I give just meat without bone should I mix it in? Or should I just be giving a tsp of it to each once per day rather than splitting up the tsp as I am doing now? I'm pretty sure they'll even take it by itself. Sounds good, just be sure not to add more than a light sprinkling because it can be over done. And honestly, it is okay for their diet to be a little off balance for a while it will settle into the proper balance and variety pretty quickly here, and their GI tract will start to adapt too. Keep up the bone meal for now since it is helping their poops, but we will eventually phase that out. It is very good to hold onto though (how long does it stay good?) even after they are eating a fully balanced diet. If you ever have a sick ferret who needs to eat soupies for a while the bone meal would be a good way to keep their calcium levels normal while still allowing them to eat soft foods. Perfect, that's what I'm doing, just the light sprinkling. Most of their meals are going to start having bone soon I'm hoping, so it's really just the ground raw chicken that they seem to need it with. I'm not sure how long it stays good for, I'll have to give tailblazers a call and ask, but I was planning on keeping it on hand for brushing their teeth with - bone meal + fish oil (at least until they really start eating a lot of bone). Which reminds me, I think you said something about using fish oil instead of olive oil or as well as, what kind of fish oil is best? Do you have a hammer? smash the bones (nice and pulverized) up so that the marrow is exposed. The marrow is all kinds of yummy. If she still seems uninterested, pick up a little piece of marrow and try hand feeding it, or even adding a drop of oil. Let me know how she likes bones once you try that. All right, awesome I'll give that a try! I find that Olivia always steal Sophie's bones too, so should I maybe separate them on each level during feeding? I also have seen these "marrow bones" at the pet health food stores. I think they are beef, but they are mostly marrow. I think the bone around the marrow is probably too thick for ferrets to eat, but would those be okay as "chewing" bones, for them to take their teething out on? (as opposed to my fingers). Ok so we need a shopping list. See if you can get some chicken breast. They should eat it no problem after eating the necks. If they don't like it whole, chop it up and try that way. If they still won't eat it scruff and stuff, then mix it with the ground. I don't think you will have trouble though. Have you tried chicken hearts yet? I would cut back on the F/D and start feeding more raw. The FD will stay good for a long time in the fridge and I recommend still feeding it here and there if you want to keep them familiar with it. This makes life easier if you have to go out of town and have a squeamish pet sitter. But they are eating raw now, so why not just feed them raw? If they have some yucky poops, don't stress out too much. Now by chicken breast... you mean the kind that has the bones are everything in it still right? Like the kind I can get from pet health food stores, unless they sell non-boneless chicken breast in grocery stores... or do you mean just plain chicken breast without the bones? They are definitely eating all of the necks now or at least Olivia is. The only things remaining in the cage were the vertebrae... so weird finding little chicken vertebrae all over the cage! ;D I am glad you mentioned the fridge, I didn't even think to put my freeze-dried in there. Although they both say they are "shelf stable once opened" I just popped them both in the fridge. They have actually decided they want nothing to do with the Ziwipeak lamb now that they've gotten a taste of real meat, but they still like the Wysong Arcehtypal, so I will keep it in the fridge. Freeze-dried (not rehydrated) or baby food is also the only thing my vet will feed if they ever need to be hospitalized (won't feed raw in clinic) so I'd like to keep them used to it. How often do I need to feed it in order to keep them eating it? Once a week? More? Okay I will just feed them raw now. If I'm doing that, what should my meals look like? They are just eating chicken now, so I am guessing I should get them on more proteins... but in the mean time... -How many meals a day should I feed them with just the raw? -How much do I give at each meal? -Would chicken breast (bone in) be considered one meal? And chicken necks another meal? I will pick up chicken hearts tomorrow if I can find them. I also have those beef organs (heart, liver, kidney, lung, tongue, spleen mix), should I give that a go? -At this point how many meals should be plain meat, how many meat with bone and how many just plain organ? I'll stop worrying about their poops, although they are looking quite all right now And I will see what I can find out of the list you gave me! I'll try at least get one other protein going as well besides the chicken. No worries about not being able to reply that often at work! I don't need you replying constantly! I will give them more chicken necks tomorrow morning, and I've got some smaller wings I'll try too and then I'll pick up the breasts and some hearts if I can and we'll go from there! Thanks Oh one more thing... how much roughly should they each be eating at meal times? I know they are eating on their own, but I worry they aren't eating enough without me hand feeding..
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Post by katt on May 7, 2011 3:22:30 GMT -5
Should I be feeding the pumpkin mixed in with every meal? I mean obviously you can't mix it with the necks, wings, etc. But any time I give just meat without bone should I mix it in? Or should I just be giving a tsp of it to each once per day rather than splitting up the tsp as I am doing now? I'm pretty sure they'll even take it by itself. This honestly is up to you. I personally feed it mixed in with their food. I pre-prepare large batches and freeze it all, so when I bag it up I mix in a little pumpkin with each bag and moosh it around so that all of the meat is lightly coated. I also use more pumpkin than is typically advised though because Koda has IBD and stays more stable with higher fiber content. I have found good results both mixing it in the food, and feeding it separately. The up side to mixing it in the food is that you know it is being more evenly dispersed with the meals and, IMO, more closely mimics the fur they would get (with the meat) in the wild. They wouldn't eat the fur, then later the meat of their prey. However, it is beneficial either way so - up to you. Which reminds me, I think you said something about using fish oil instead of olive oil or as well as, what kind of fish oil is best?Salmon oil Other fish oils work well though. Just "Fish Oil" is next best I believe (I think there are other kinds... ) - that is what I use. It comes in gel capsules and I poke holes in the capsules and let them lick it up. It's great for their coat too. All right, awesome I'll give that a try! I find that Olivia always steal Sophie's bones too, so should I maybe separate them on each level during feeding?You can, but fighting over food ids a favorite ferret pastime. I don't find that it is necessary, once Sophie is eating bones and realized how yummy they are, I bet she will do her fair share of stealing too. Later, if you are worried that it is a problem (one getting all the bone the other none - very unlikely though) you can, but I doubt that will become an issue. I also have seen these "marrow bones" at the pet health food stores. I think they are beef, but they are mostly marrow. I think the bone around the marrow is probably too thick for ferrets to eat, but would those be okay as "chewing" bones, for them to take their teething out on? (as opposed to my fingers).Nah. You can try they may like them, but be sure to take them out when they start drying out as they get too hard and they can crack teeth. I personally wouldn't even bother. As they start to get more bone in their diet that will help. Also, they can be trained not to bite or mouth if that is something you don't like. Personally I like a mouthy ferret, but everyone's tolerance is different. Some people do not allow any form of mouthing at all, while others allow their ferrets to get quite rough. They are babies right now and are going to be mouthy. The bones will help to redirect that as the get more in their diet. They will begin to build jaw strength as well from the meat chunks and bones, and be able to eat even thicker bones. Now by chicken breast... you mean the kind that has the bones are everything in it still right? Like the kind I can get from pet health food stores, unless they sell non-boneless chicken breast in grocery stores... or do you mean just plain chicken breast without the bones?Boneless chicken breast. Sorry. I didn't know they sold it with the bones in? Boneless. Skinless or not is not really important. They may or may not like the skin right now, but they will be eating it sooner or later so never hurts to do it sooner. I think they will take to the chicken breast just fine. They are definitely eating all of the necks now or at least Olivia is. The only things remaining in the cage were the vertebrae... so weird finding little chicken vertebrae all over the cage! ;Dhehe Oh yes, and mouse tails, jerky bits, wing parts, unidentified dry object.... The joys of feeding raw. ;D I am glad you mentioned the fridge, I didn't even think to put my freeze-dried in there. Although they both say they are "shelf stable once opened" I just popped them both in the fridge. They have actually decided they want nothing to do with the Ziwipeak lamb now that they've gotten a taste of real meat, but they still like the Wysong Arcehtypal, so I will keep it in the fridge. Freeze-dried (not rehydrated) or baby food is also the only thing my vet will feed if they ever need to be hospitalized (won't feed raw in clinic) so I'd like to keep them used to it. How often do I need to feed it in order to keep them eating it? Once a week? More?Monthly. Every ferret is different, but really feeding it once or twice a month should be sufficient. I tend to feed mine FD when I am super busy and need the convenience, or when they are at Shane's, or sometimes if Koda is having an IBD flare up the higher fiber content of the FD helps stabilize him sometimes. And FD does stay long on the shelf, but I think that (like anything) it should stay better even longer in the fridge - or even the freezer. The lamb thing could be less the food itself, and more the lamb. Some ferrets just don't like it. Koda was on a diet of almost entirely lamb when his IBD was really bad (it is one of the most gentle, "non-allergenic," etc meats out there for animals). One day he decided he hated it and now will not touch it. Period. Kenai would not touch it from the beginning. I have heard of other ferrets doing both of the above, and some who absolutely love it, and others who change their mind every time it is offered. It is a strange meat I guess. -How many meals a day should I feed them with just the raw?I feed twice a day. I give them a meal in the morning, and at night. At night I take out any bad meat, and top off the leftover good meats with fresh. I repeat this in the morning. They have access to the food all day. This is important in kits because they are growing and need all of the fuel whenever they get hungry, but as adults I know some people have meal times. So they put in the food and give the ferrets 30 min to eat, and then take it all out and do it again 2-3 times a day. I find this to be non-ideal personally, but it is done. -How much do I give at each meal?Enough that there is just a little bit left over. Right now they are young and growing, and just adapting to the raw so they will eat a LOT to start with, You will find that as they get older they eat less actually. I have never been one to measure my foods. I just eyeball it honestly - every ferret is so different. You get a feel for what your ferrets will eat pretty quickly. Let me know if you are concerned or have troubles with this. -Would chicken breast (bone in) be considered one meal? And chicken necks another meal? Meh. It really depends on how you set up the menu. I would say that breasts bone in could be a meal, or boneless breasts plus necks. Then in the next meal you might do gizzards and hearts, or pork meat and beef liver... Overall, your ferrets will need to be getting: 10-15% bone, 10% organ meat (half of which should be liver), and 75-80% muscle meat (this includes heart and gizzards). They need a large amount of heart for the taurine. Here is a good example menu. This is Mikeybox's graduating menu. I will pick up chicken hearts tomorrow if I can find them. I also have those beef organs (heart, liver, kidney, lung, tongue, spleen mix), should I give that a go?Definitely. Also look for some pork and beef meats. Stew chunk beef and pork chops are both very convenient meats to start with. lol Easy to cut for scruff and stuff, or mixing with other meats if need be. -At this point how many meals should be plain meat, how many meat with bone and how many just plain organ?I'd say 5-6 days of meaty bone, one day just organs, and heart at least 2-3 meals a week. This can be split into other meals too. Like for the bone days, you can have a meal of turkey necks in the morning, and ground chicken at night, then the next day maybe chicken wings for breakfast, and pork meat and beef heart for dinner. How you mix and match is less important than what the overall balance is. Getting those key percentages that I stated above is half of the key, and the other half is variety. You need a bare minimum of 3 protein sources, but the more the merrier. I prefer to get a variety in every way - so a variety of bones, meats, organs, and hearts. So for variety for example, you could do bones (chicken bone in *wings, neck, back, ribs, etc*, cornish game hen, turkey necks, pork ribs, rabbit bone in), meats (duck, pork, beef, chicken, rabbit, rodent, quail...etc etc), organ (chicken liver, beef liver, pork liver, pork kidney, beef kidney, pork spleen, pork brains), heart (chicken heart, beef heart, pork heart, turkey heart, whole prey hearts).... etc. These are just a few examples. I'll try at least get one other protein going as well besides the chicken. See above. Try them on pork and beef next. No worries about not being able to reply that often at work! I don't need you replying constantly!lol Well, I find in the beginning that things move faster, and more smoothly if there are fast replies. I will give them more chicken necks tomorrow morning, and I've got some smaller wings I'll try too and then I'll pick up the breasts and some hearts if I can and we'll go from there!Normal sized wings are fine too. And yeah if you have wings on hand definitely offer them those. They should go right for it since they are eating he neck, but sometimes ferrets are silly and you might need to remind them that just because it is shaped differently does not mean it is not food. ;D Oh one more thing... how much roughly should they each be eating at meal times? I know they are eating on their own, but I worry they aren't eating enough without me hand feeding..They will not starve themselves, don't worry. As long as there is a little left over at the end of each meal/day then you are golden. If one of them appears not to be eating, or is losing significant weight then we can look at potential issues.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2011 12:00:54 GMT -5
Awesome thanks for all of the great advice! I tried them on the chicken wings this morning and they try to eat them, but they seem to still be having a tough time with the skin and getting the meat off of the bones (I think they might be chicken legs even though the package said wings, because the bones are thick... I couldn't even get them to smash with a hammer ) I even have a hard time cutting the meat off, so maybe these ones are just particularily tought and should pick up some non-frozen ones from the grocery store. The chicken breast I found in my freezer is actually skinless, so maybe they'll have an easier time with that. I was just plannng on cutting one in half and giving each of them a half, does that sound good? If they can't handle it, I'll cut it into smaller pieces, but I'm assuming they will eventually learn to rip the meat up themselves? For pork, what about pork tenderloin? I'm just seeing what foods I have in my freezer to save a bit of money haha. I don't have porkchops but I have the tenderloin. Should I try the beef organs later tonight? It's heart and liver and kidney and what not all mushed into one. Or should I try chicken hearts first? and leave the beef for tomorrow? One thing I am a little confused about is the bone-in meat days. You said 5-6 days of that but that I could also feed ground chicken as one meal on those days, you'll have to forgive me, I'm a little slow sometimes but I guess what I'm wondering is if I end up feeding 2 meals a day, then of the 14 meals I would feed in a week, how many of those meals should be bone-in meat and how many can just be plain meat without bone (chicken breast, ground meats, etc.), and then how many meals should be heart and how many should be organ? I tried to figure it out from the sample meal plan you gave me, but I'm still kind of clueless as to what meats have bone and which do not. Sorry! I will wrap my head around this eventually ;D In the mean time, I'm assuming it's not a big deal that they aren't eating a lot of bone-in meats yet? I think you mentioned earlier it takes a long time for them to get deprived of one thing, so I'm guessing the important thing now is just getting them to try stuff and worry about balance later? Thanks!
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Post by katt on May 7, 2011 12:37:42 GMT -5
I tried them on the chicken wings this morning and they try to eat them, but they seem to still be having a tough time with the skin and getting the meat off of the bones (I think they might be chicken legs even though the package said wings, because the bones are thick... I couldn't even get them to smash with a hammer ) I even have a hard time cutting the meat off, so maybe these ones are just particularily tought and should pick up some non-frozen ones from the grocery store.Keep in mind that they are still building up their jaw strength too. They will get better as it as we go. But that said, it does sound like oyu had some particularly tough chicken for some reason. lol The chicken breast I found in my freezer is actually skinless, so maybe they'll have an easier time with that. I was just planning on cutting one in half and giving each of them a half, does that sound good? If they can't handle it, I'll cut it into smaller pieces, but I'm assuming they will eventually learn to rip the meat up themselves?Yes, they will eventually be able to eat it up whole. Your plan sounds great. See how they like it halved, and smaller and smaller until it is a manageable size. But still big enough to keep them challenged so we can build up their chompers. For pork, what about pork tenderloin? I'm just seeing what foods I have in my freezer to save a bit of money haha. I don't have porkchops but I have the tenderloin.That will be fine. Should I try the beef organs later tonight? It's heart and liver and kidney and what not all mushed into one. Or should I try chicken hearts first? and leave the beef for tomorrow? Try the beef organs tonight. Be prepared for dark, soft-to runny textured poops for up to 24 hours after they eat it. If we can get them on organs sooner, all the better! One thing I am a little confused about is the bone-in meat days. You said 5-6 days of that but that I could also feed ground chicken as one meal on those days, you'll have to forgive me, I'm a little slow sometimes but I guess what I'm wondering is if I end up feeding 2 meals a day, then of the 14 meals I would feed in a week, how many of those meals should be bone-in meat and how many can just be plain meat without bone (chicken breast, ground meats, etc.), and then how many meals should be heart and how many should be organ?You are going to put me to the test here. ;D I usually don't count days because it depends so much on what you are feeding. I look less at numbers and more at overall balance. As long as they are getting 10% bone THAT is key. So a lot of it depends on the food. For example, chicken feet, and chicken/turkey neck consists of more bone, where chicken leg has more meat than edible bone. So you could feed 5 meals of feet and neck, and 5 meals of drumstick. You would technically be feeding 5 meals bone-in, but the actual amount of bone versus meat that they are getting would be different. See what I am saying? It is for this reason that I don't usually count days of meals but just focus on getting the overall balance correct. That doesn't really answer your question though. Sorry. ;D I will go on a mission to work out a more exact answer for you! ;D In the mean time, I'm assuming it's not a big deal that they aren't eating a lot of bone-in meats yet? I think you mentioned earlier it takes a long time for them to get deprived of one thing, so I'm guessing the important thing now is just getting them to try stuff and worry about balance later? Yup. Totally okay for now, and their diet will be balanced sooner than you think. Try the beef and the pork today. Look around and see if you have access to any cornish game hen. That is a great bone in meat.
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Post by katt on May 7, 2011 13:14:52 GMT -5
(credit to Jackie) I hope this gives you a clearer picture of what I was trying to get at, as well as more of a daily-based schedule like you asked for. The "if you feed this, but if you feed that, and if you feed those" is exactly why I got by overall diet based on the specific foods being fed, rather than preset days. *nods* No worries though! By the end of this they will have a wonderfully balanced diet, and you will have the knowledge to know how to balance it based on what they are eating. Let me know if all of my ramblings make sense and if you have any questions!
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2011 13:58:29 GMT -5
Thank you Katt! That makes perfect sense now! I think I know what to aim for now, so that really helps! thank you!! I'll give the beef organs, chicken breast, and pork a try today (I'm still feeding 3-4 meals a day because they are eating a lot) and if I have time to stop by the pet food store (one of my poor hedgehogs is sick and needs to go to the vet ) I will see if I can find the cornish game hens. I've seen whole quails before? would this be something to try too? And I'll just probably stock up on random organs and bone-in meats, whatever looks good, that way I can just try things as I go and don't have to keep making trips to the store (it sucks not having a vehicle, sadly I can't afford insurance or the ridiculous gas prices because all my money goes to the pets ) Will let you know how the chicken breast (lunch), Organs (dinner) and Pork (night time snack) go! I'll probably throw some more chicken necks in their too so that they get some bone for the day at least.
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