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Post by Sherry on Aug 15, 2014 10:00:19 GMT -5
Okay, thanks for the clarification I've not had kibbles in the house for years, and as such am not aware of the various types. As for only taking a bit of the duck- it IS still a step in the right direction. Sometimes those steps are going to seem very small, but they all add up to a huge change over time
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Post by raynebc on Aug 15, 2014 11:37:40 GMT -5
I've got the Archetypal and will try adding some to their food when I change it out this evening. I'm somewhat optimistic they'll take to it easily since both it and their Epigen kibble are mainly made out of chicken meat and organs. I think the bigger step would be getting them to eat the re-hydrated Archetypal, but time will tell.
Since raw food presents more problems with contamination, should I wash their water bowl more often than I do now (about once per day)? Even if they're not eating the food wet, they will probably get some crumbs of it in their water dish.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 14:14:04 GMT -5
Here in the Southern states, its super hot and can be buggy. I wash their water bowl and give them fresh water, every morning and night. If they drop something into their water and Wynstan often does, they get fresh water. I also use four plates. Two for the morning and then into the dishwasher and two at night. In the morning, they go into the dishwasher. With the rehydrated Archetypal, you can get it slightly wet and then a little wetter each time. Mine loved it wet, and I never had a problem with any of them, eating wet food. You can make a game out of it, drop a piece into a plastic bin and let them "fish" for it.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 15, 2014 23:44:12 GMT -5
They finally had just about emptied their food dish, and it seems reluctantly ate some of the FD chicken I'd left in there. After washing the dish I put their usual kibble mix together and I crumbled and sprinkled one or two spoon's worth of Archetypal over the top of it. They didn't seem to know what to do with it so I got them out to play for a while. Now they're back to lounging in their pen so I'll give them a couple hours to see if they've tried any of the food.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 16, 2014 4:51:06 GMT -5
Looks like they ate some, I'm glad they're willing to cave a little bit once they're hungry.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 18, 2014 0:53:57 GMT -5
Their litter box had one dropping in it this afternoon that looked green. I saw both of them pass regular-colored stools later in the day, so I'm thinking the green poo was a fluke. Should I not worry about it until it happens again? If I see it, should I do anything special like empty and wash the litter box, or just clean it out with the rest of the droppings like normal?
Apart from them still getting Archetypal sprinkled over their kibble, the only other thing I gave them out of the ordinary today was their weekly oil laxative. Copper had half of his before he pretended he didn't like it, but after I held him he took the rest of it off of my finger, he seems to be getting more and more spoiled.
I vacuumed crumbs out of their food/water corner last night, I'm going to try to keep it cleaner since their diet includes freeze dried raw food now. That corner of their pen has a rug as the floor, do I need to go as far as wiping it down with a soapy (antibacterial soap) sponge, or is sweeping/vacuuming crumbs and kibble sufficient? I'm washing their water dish and replenishing it twice a day now, also considering giving them less food at a time so that I can wash and refill their food dish more than once per day so that their food stays fresher. Their food and water corner of the pen has cover from a towel so it should keep the sunlight off of it pretty well, but they still seem to enjoy it more when it's fresh out of the bag.
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Post by Sherry on Aug 18, 2014 8:59:32 GMT -5
Any time you introduce a diet change their stools are going to show it So just keep an eye out. As for cleaning- I don't worry beyond normal cleaning methods with actual raw meat, so with the FDR you won't have any more issue than with the kibble.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 18, 2014 12:14:05 GMT -5
Alright, thanks. Their stools were normal this morning.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 20, 2014 1:30:57 GMT -5
Reska had been shedding a little bit at a time the last couple of weeks, but this evening during their nail trimming we got the rest of the shedding fur off of her. All the loose hair was black (overcoat), and she certainly looks lighter colored now, would this be a late coat change or something light-related? I still try to limit their exposure to artificial light as much as possible, but they often aren't in a playful mood until late in the evening. That's why I'll probably have to get in the habit of wetting them down in the tub to invigorate them at an earlier hour. I do open the blinds a little bit to allow some more light sometimes when it's not bright out, so I can navigate their room without having to turn the electric light on. In case this is a trigger for blowing their coats, should I leave the blinds be and avoid adjusting them? Blocking the majority of the window with cardboard may have been drastic, but it's more important to me for their room to stay coolor than 75 degrees than risking an early coat shed.
Anyways, Reska fussed a little bit during the nail trimming, but overall was pretty good and was even a good sport while my room mate gave her the rub down to remove the shedding fur. Without all this loose fur she should cough a little less often. Copper was relaxed and behaved like a champ, I don't remember him flinching even once. I rewarded them both with salmon oil, which of course Copper forgot that he likes. It didn't take long having a dropper with oil in front of his mouth to refresh his memory though.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 27, 2014 3:33:40 GMT -5
I've been mixing the Wysong Archetype into the kibble in addition to using it as a topping, and they seem to be taking to it pretty well. I know lots of people of the forum disagree with the use of garlic in pet supplements, but I've been exceedingly sparing on the use of Nupro as a food topping, maybe giving a half or a full daily dose per week. Since they don't appear to have any allergy concerns with it, it really doesn't seem like there's enough garlic in it to do any measurable harm.
I did find some promising looking canned dog foods at a D&B when I was there to get litter, so I picked up a can of Merrick grain-free chicken. It is 96% meat, and no actual vegetables listed in the ingredients, so I figured it has to be at least competitive with the best kibble. Also, I wanted to get them used to eating wet food since I hadn't found one they'd liked yet. I was surprised that they accepted it pretty easily, and I even got them each to eat a couple teaspoons of it. Its analysis is: 10% protein, 6% fat, 1.4% fiber, 78% moisture. Based on a thread on the forum explaining the comparison between wet and dry, it looks like the dry analysis would come to: 45% protein, 27% fat. I don't know if the fiber has to be scaled the same way, does this food have a harmful amount of fiber for an occasional meal? Given that it's dog food, it also probably doesn't have a lot of taurine in it, but if they only have it a couple times a week, that wouldn't deprive them of too much would it? Are there any other ingredients I'd need to be worried about, such as the salt?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 12:35:00 GMT -5
I looked at the ingredient list to check it out. Naturally, I'm going to be a little biased because this product is intended for Dogs. Ferrets body chemistry is more Feline, so I would be hesitant to buy any Canine Product.
Here's is what I see: Deboned Chicken. that's okay
Chicken broth. We don't know what is in the broth, like salt. Most broth is made with vegetables like onion and garlic. We'll avoid that discusssion.
Dried Egg Product: Okay
Potassium Chloride is a metal halide salt. Not good
Calcium Carbonate is a rock product. We know calcium is good, This product is found in Antacids and Fertilizer. I'm not sure what to make of this.
Salt. Not good
Sodium Phosphate. Salt again. This product is very high in salt
following these ingredients is a list of vitamins. Choline, Vitamin B12, Biotin etc...I don't know the amounts and can't tell if it would be the correct amount of vitamins for a ferret.
Cassia gum is a thickening agent, that is only used in Pet products. Cassia Tora gum is not available in human grade foods and currently allowed for human consumption in Eastern bloc countries.
Guar Gum is made from beans and is another thickening agent.
As you said, there is no Taurine at all.
So overall, based on my research and given the amount of salt. I wouldn't feed it to my ferrets.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 27, 2014 14:42:23 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken, an ingredient list is required indicate specific ingredients, they wouldn't be able to get away with just saying "chicken broth" if it was actually chicken, salt and vegetable stock. I've seen human foods describe an ingredient's ingredients in parentheses, which is probably the norm for defining the makeup of compound ingredients.
I couldn't find any information about Potassium Chloride being particularly harmful. It is used as a potassium source and is commonly used with animal foods and veterinarians. As with many vitamins it supposedly isn't harmful unless overdosed.
Calcium Carbonate is presumably just a calcium source, maybe that's cheaper for them to work with than bone meal. I'm not sure if it's as absorb-able as egg/bone powder though.
We don't know how much salt is in this food, it doesn't say. The first four ingredients make up 96% of the food since only 4% of it is claimed to be anything other than chicken. Merrick does make canned cat food, and it includes Taurine, but it has a slightly less amount of protein and fat (0.5% less of each wet analysis). I don't plan to make this their permanent food, I just need somewhere to start with wet food they'll accept since they didn't like kibble mash or baby food. I imagine that it may be successful to sneak other things into the canned food such as raw egg or commercial raw. I'll check to see if they have the canned cat food available locally since that is more biologically appropriate even if it's just an occasional wet meal. I emailed Merrick to see if I can get more information regarding the concerns you raised.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 17:25:18 GMT -5
One suggestion. Your Wysong is primarily chicken and turkey. You want a minimum of three proteins, and you should include a red meat. Its high in iron and Vitamin B. Beef, lamb (another strong flavor like beef) and goat are good choices.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 27, 2014 20:13:33 GMT -5
Wysong doesn't seem to offer a red meat Archetype (just chicken, quail and rabbit). Wysong does have an "Au jus" canned food that is 95% meat, organ, plasma (it has a little guar gum) that is probably really good, but they're currently out of stock except for the Venison one and other vendors mostly just sell it in large lots.
What other brands of canned or freeze dried raw are recommended to provide other proteins? I haven't gotten to the point of making a fully raw soup, but this would be another step in the right direction.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 28, 2014 0:57:02 GMT -5
I tried beef baby food again and they despised it. I'm not sure if I'd have much more luck with ground beef in a soup.
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