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Post by raynebc on Aug 2, 2014 0:26:05 GMT -5
I haven't signed up for a mentor yet, but I've been making some intermittent attempts at getting them to branch out from their comfort zone. Here are my little weasels: The sable one is Reska, a sweet little girl ferret that is playful but loves some cuddling when she's worn out. The silver(ish?) one is Copper, who must be part albino because he has pink eyes. He doesn't like to cuddle as much but overall is much more mellow than her sister. During play fights he's usually the winner, given his size advantage. Tunnel stand-offs are anybody's game from one to the next. Right now they eat a mix of 4 kibbles: Zupreem (corn-free), Wysong Epigen 90 digestive support, Evo (ferret) and Orijen (cat/kitten). Nupro sent me a sample so the past couple of days I've sprinkled a little of the dry powder over their kibble and they don't seem to mind it. I'm a relatively careful, second time ferrent, and I am strongly avoiding giving them any foods that have sugar in them. One or both (I'm not sure which) are willing to eat some freeze dried meat treats (salmon and chicken liver) when left in their food dish, and Reska likes salmon oil, but otherwise the only other snacks they really get is a half N-bone each every one or two days. I got a stock of a bunch of other freeze dried meats to try to introduce them to slowly, but they're pretty stubborn about new foods. I've also tried to feed them medium boiled eggs and various stage 2 meat baby foods (chicken, turkey, beef), none of which were popular with them. I also use Oxyfresh (at my vet's suggestion) to help keep their teeth and gums in good shape. I haven't had them for much longer than a month, so I haven't quite determined if I should brush their teeth in addition to the N-bone and Oxyfresh just to be on the safe side. I intend to eventually get them eating raw at least part of the time and would like to get them chomping on meaty bone for their teeth cleaning, I'm sure that would be less stressful for all involved than trying to get them to cooperate with tooth brushing. Onto the switch: I just got a coffee grinder and made a kibble+water soup for them a couple days ago, but they weren't that interested so I gave them a reprieve. This evening I decided to try a raw chicken egg. After their kibble had been removed for about 2.5 hours, I got an egg and ran it under moderately hot water for a couple of minutes. This warmed it up a little, but probably not enough, as after I cracked the egg, poured it into a small bowl and scrambled it, it was still a little cold. I didn't want to try cooking the egg yet since I already figured they'd ignore it, so I kept stirring it with my finger for the next half hour and dabbing egg on their nose/mouth. I also did the occasional scruff and stuff, but they didn't appreciate it much. When I decided to call it an evening, got a damp paper towel to wipe their noses clean and I cooked the scrambled egg, drizzled a little salmon oil on it and left it with them in case they got hungry enough to change their minds while I let them hide and sulk in their bedding. The next soup I thought I'd try mixing hot water, baby food and a little ground up kibble and giving them some once it cooled a little bit. If anybody has some pointers, I'm all for some advice as I continue playing mind games with the ferrets.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 10:51:20 GMT -5
Cooper and Reska are darl1ng.
You tr1ed offer1ng egg (you don't need to cook 1t), but try aga1n. Wh1sk up some raw egg and add a l1ttle warm water 1nto 1t, you can also dr1p a drop of o1l 1n 1t. Pour some on a plate and s1t on the floor w1th them and d1p a spoon 1nto 1t. Then hold 1t out and "acc1dentally" dab a l1ttle on the1r mouth. 1 don't scruff, m1ne don't l1ke scruff1ng and 1'm not good at 1t.
Another th1ng to try 1s to puree up some raw ch1cken, add some warm water and try offer1ng that soup. Usually Mentors w1ll suggest offer1ng the raw soup rec1pe as a start1ng po1nt. Have you seen that rec1pe? 8oz of raw ch1cken (th1gh 1s preferred) 1 ch1cken heart 1/2 ch1cken l1ver and 1/2 tsp of dr1ed eggshell powder (dry some eggshells, then gr1nd them up 1nto a f1ne powder) you can add some warm water to make 1t more soupy. then you try offer1ng that. You can freeze the leftover 1n 1ce cube trays, and then just pop them out and defrost them as needed.
As you know, ferrets are stubborn and f1n1cky l1ttle guys. P1ck one or two foods (say egg and the soup1e) and offer that every day, tw1ce a day. Eventually, they w1ll humor you and try some.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 2, 2014 12:54:31 GMT -5
My room mate was too squeamish to consider allowing me to keep whole prey in the freezer, but he doesn't seem very grossed out about me storing commercial raw because it's barely any different than storing any other ground meat. Can I try mixing some of the Primal frozen raw samples I got in warm water and trying that instead, since those are generally nutritionally complete, at least during a transition?
To go with a non commercial recipe like that I would need to acquire several things: A dedicated blender, possibly a more sensitive scale (the one I got to weigh ferrets is only accurate within 2oz or so), probably a dedicated cutting board, cutlery and a plastic tub to keep all raw meat and utensils contained while I work with the meat.
They were both pretty hungry after I returned their kibble to them because I had to add a window of time before and after offering raw egg. Is two hours on each side of the raw feeding a little flexible, ie. would 1 or 1.5 hours be safe enough. If they didn't eat any raw besides the few drops I got in them, is that still enough raw that I need to make them wait for their regular food afterward?
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Post by raynebc on Aug 3, 2014 20:29:23 GMT -5
Until I know more about my previous questions I'm probably going to go rather lightly on introducing raw foods. Should I try getting some nutritionally-complete freeze dried raw food like Wysong Archetypal? I can add it as a topping to their normal food to get them used to it, and then try some meals with re-hydrated Archetypal. If they manage to eat that, it would be a step in the right direction, correct?
I'm saving egg shells though so I can make egg shell powder with them some time in the future. People said they grind and freeze the egg shell. Are freezer bags OK for this, or should I look into a lidded container or something?
I can add freeze dried shrimp and FD beef tripe to the list of foods they don't like. Even when they have polished off all of the kibble in their bowl they'll leave those behind.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 4, 2014 13:30:50 GMT -5
One of them vomited a little in their cat crinkle tunnel overnight. I don't know which ferret it was, but it was the first I'd seen this happen in weeks, so I don't have any suspicion that they have any allergies with their food. I've been topping their kibble with a small amount of Nupro each day as a supplement for the past half-week or so, but they've had no notable reactions to that change so I don't think that was the cause. Especially since the previous time I saw vomit, it was also in the crinkle tunnel, which was a gift from a friend who has cats. I removed the tunnel and am going to thoroughly wash it when I get home, but given how rare of an occasion this is, I don't know what to think as far as causes go.
Copper is usually pretty relaxed, he is bigger and gets warmer more easily than Reska, but is just as excitable during playtime so I don't have reason to believe he has any serious problems like insulinoma, especially since they're both so young. Their room is generally stays within the range of 70 and 75 degrees, but I never see him pancaking on the floor, and they have a cold box during the day if they ever feel like using it. Reska was coughing a little bit this weekend, so I gave them each some of the oil-based laxative in case she was just gagging on some fur. They are both going to the bathroom seemingly regularly and I saw them each pass a BM this morning, so hopefully there's no blockage involved.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 14:30:59 GMT -5
Can I try mixing some of the Primal frozen raw samples I got in warm water and trying that instead, since those are generally nutritionally complete, at least during a transition?
You certainly can try some of the frozen raw samples. I wouldn't mix proteins, just try one at a time. If you mix proteins and someone has a reaction, then you don't know which protein caused the problem. We alot of ferrents who feed commercial raw. You can get all the benefits of raw, except for the teeth cleaning. If you added chicken gizzards to their weekly menu, that could also help clean their teeth. Or you could learn to brush their teeth. Is two hours on each side of the raw feeding a little flexible, ie. would 1 or 1.5 hours be safe enough.
Two hours separation should be enough. People said they grind and freeze the egg shell. Are freezer bags OK for this, or should I look into a lidded container or something?
You don't freeze the eggshells, just store them in a lidded container, they hold quite well and for a long time. Since you will be sprinkling them over food, they should be dry. I can add freeze dried shrimp and FD beef tripe to the list of foods they don't like.Tripe is rather stinky and most ferrets really don't care for it. It doesn't offer alot nutritionally, so no loss there. Out of my four ferrets, only one likes raw shrimp. All four do love freeze dried Cod. Sherry has suggested Smelt, I haven't tried those yet. One of them vomited a little in their cat crinkle tunnel overnight.
Sometimes, just like small children, something upsets their tummy and they throw up. Keep an eye out and see if it happens again. It could be the little one ate too fast or like I said, something just didn't agree with them. You're doing well so far. :thumbsup:
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Post by raynebc on Aug 4, 2014 15:48:04 GMT -5
For a commercial raw soup, should I just thaw one of the nuggets and mix it with enough water to bring it to baby formula consistency? If they refuse it, and have only eaten several drops I managed to get in them, do they still need to wait a couple hours before I give them back their regular food? What's a good way to keep the soup warm while I try to feed it? I have some small bottles with eye droppers, could I fill a bottle with the soup and set the bottle in a dish of warm/hot water?
Nutrition-wise, are frozen raw and freeze dried raw relatively the same? I have to imagine the latter would be pretty easy to transition to, since it seems it can be mixed with the kibble they're already used to without digestive problems. Wysong offers three different Archetypal formulas each made with a different protein (chicken, quail and rabbit), is that enough variety to meet their needs? Once I get far enough, how long can re-hydrated freeze dried raw be left in their pen before it has to be discarded? As long as it is offered wet, can it can be provided without time buffer with regular raw meat (such as during the day while I'm not there to feed them)?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 16:13:52 GMT -5
For a commercial raw soup, should I just thaw one of the nuggets and mix it with enough water to bring it to baby formula consistency? If they refuse it, and have only eaten several drops I managed to get in them, do they still need to wait a couple hours before I give them back their regular food? What's a good w
Use warm water to make the soup, it doesn't need to be hot or stay warm. If you use warm water, it will be at room temp and that should be fine. If you give them a little soup and they turn up their noses and refuse to eat, and then you offer their regular kibble, they will quickly learn to wait for their favorite food. Ferrets are very smart!
Nutrition-wise, are frozen raw and freeze dried raw relatively the same?
Yes, they are the same nutritionally, just processed differently. You still need to treat the frozen raw and FDR as raw. That means that you want to wash your hands after handling. It also means that you want to separate the time between kibble and the frozen/freeze dried raw.
I used freeze dried raw for quite awhile, while I learned about feeding raw. One of the products, that I used was the Wysong Archetypal 1 for ferrets. There has been some formula changes with Wysong and they have caused some diarrhea, but I haven't heard of any problems with the Wysong Archetypal 1. I did make sure to offer at least three proteins.
how long can re-hydrated freeze dried raw be left in their pen before it has to be discarded?
The re-hydrated FDR can be left out for up to 12 hours.
One note: If you are buying FDR or frozen raw, remember to avoid the canine formula. There are a variety of options out there, and the feline version will have higher protein and more taurine than a canine version. Also the canine version has fruit/grain/veggies, and you don't want that.
Fdr/frozen raw can be expensive. It offers most of the benefits of fresh raw, except as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't clean their teeth as well as consuming bones will clean their teeth. Some products to look at are: Stella and Chewy's, Whole Life, Natures Variety Instinct raw boost, and Whole Life. I ordered most of mine from Amazon and with Amazon Prime, shipping was free. I gather that you are not in the States, so I'm not sure if Amazon is available to you.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 4, 2014 17:33:27 GMT -5
In another thread (http://holisticferret60.proboards.com/post/219955/thread), Sherry indicated FDR can be mixed with dry food as long as both are kept dry. I just wanted to make sure this is the case. I ordered some chicken Archetypal (95% meat, bone, organ) and would like make it a kibble topping so that even when I'm not feeding them wet raw food, they're still getting some raw benefits. I do live in the US, and was happy Amazon sells Archetypal for the same price as Wysong's website, since Prime 2 day shipping is a lot cheaper than Wysong's shipping.
I'm not so worried about the added cost compared to franken/whole pray, FDR seems to be the easiest to use considering it doesn't have to be kept refrigerated/frozen and would be easier to store, prepare and serve. If I go with FDR for the long term, would it mess up their nutritional balance too much if I displace one or two of their weekly meals with tough meat or meaty bone?
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Post by raynebc on Aug 11, 2014 23:29:14 GMT -5
Not a lot to report right now, except that after a good play session, it looks like Copper became a salmon oil addict! The archetypal should be arriving in the mail soon (the free shipping from Amazon is really slow, they must not keep any stock of it and special order it from Wysong whenever a customer orders it), so I look forward to trying that out. After they're used to the dry archetypal I'll give the re-hydrated form a try. I saw Sherry mention that with FDR, it has to be offered re-hydrated at a certain frequency. If it's only a part of their food, how often should it be served re-hydrated? Or is that more important after they've switched over to it completely? Are there any other things I should be immediately aware of with the FDR?
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Post by Sherry on Aug 12, 2014 9:18:49 GMT -5
Sorry just saw this! With FDR yes if dry it can be given with the kibble. Once switched over it needs to be rehydrated twice daily for their main meal. Otherwise the same dehydration issues you see with kibble occur.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 12, 2014 14:42:19 GMT -5
Archetypal is labeled as 4% max moisture whereas the 4 kibbles I use all happen to indicate 10% max (this must be some kind of industry standard or something). Is this going to make the ferrets notably more dehydrated while it's still a kibble mixer or will they just drink extra water to compensate? I'd like to try feeding them more wet foods occasionally, but they never took a liking to baby food, and I hadn't tried kibble mash again yet. Maybe now that they both like salmon oil I can add that as a topping to entice them.
Reska often has really small bowel movements. Not thin, ribbon-like poops, just small droppings. She certainly must each much less than Copper, so this isn't anything to be concerned about as long as I'm not seeing any symptoms indicating pain or inability to pass waste, right? I don't let them play in their starch peanut pit too often because she likes to eat them and even though they will dissolve quickly they still can't be good for her.
I've been thinking of dropping Zupreem corn-free from my kibble mix because it doesn't list how much of the food (as a percentage) is animal based even though this statistic is available for the Orijen, Wysong and Evo kibbles. I emailed them and they wouldn't give that information to me either. Based on the ingredient list I would bet money that it has the least amount of animal fat/protein out of the kibbles I'm using, especially considering "potato protein" is used as a binder. The timing would be about right since I could just replace the Zupreem with Archetypal.
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Post by Sherry on Aug 12, 2014 19:04:35 GMT -5
Please drop the zupreem grain free immediately. It has been linked with formation of cystine stones due to the high pea protein. And Freeze dried raw of ANY brand is actually raw meat/bone/organ. However they will be just as dehydrated on that always served dry as they are with any kibble. And after all- why pay THAT much for something if you aren't going to gain the full benefits of it? Ferrets, just like cats, are meant to get the majority of their moisture from their food. And when they don't it keeps them in a constant state of semi dehydration. Which is why there is such a panic over diarrhea and/or vomiting. To show you the difference my Boris had severe uncontrollable IBD. He had watery diarrhea for almost a YEAR. And the vet never once considered him dehydrated.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 12, 2014 20:08:46 GMT -5
I'm not using the grain-free variety, which is why I specified corn-free. I am only going to mix the FDR in to get them used to it before I try to feed them entire meals of it re-hydrated.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 15, 2014 2:12:51 GMT -5
They didn't like freeze dried chicken meat, but a little bit of the freeze dried duck I left in got eaten. It's not much progress but I'm hoping that learning their protein preferences now will be helpful in the future. If they like eating chicken liver treats, that would rule out chicken allergies as a whole, right? Copper doesn't seem to be interested in the salmon oil unless I feed it to him with a dropper, pampered little prince that he is.
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