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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 10:52:00 GMT -5
Anytime you introduce a new protein, it takes a few attempts before they like it and will eat it. I had the hardest time with beef. Then I found that they actually like a fatty ground beef with a raw egg. I whip the egg up with some warm water and pour it over the top.
The key is offering it for a few meals in a row. Then it becomes familiar and they will eat it. You also need to sit with them and coax them into a few bites. If they walk away, pick someone up and off it again. They will usually humor you eventually and eat a bite or two. Then they will eat a little more.
Most failed attempts come because someone just sets down a bowl or plates and hopes they will eat. They won't.
Other red meats are lamb and goat. Lamb is a strong flavor and goat is milder.
I fed freeze dried raw for awhile, while I was learning about the Frankenprey.
I bought the Wysong Archetypal 1 Stella and Chewy's (feline) tummy, tickling turkey and Duck,duck goose. Whole Life Cod Natures variety instinct raw boost bites in various flavors like rabbit, beef, lamb I also bought Fresh is best Dried turkey hearts. Primal Pet foods makes some Beef and lamb products for felines.
That's a super expensive way to feed four ferrets. I spent over $200 a month, doing that.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 28, 2014 13:59:27 GMT -5
Last night, I had sat with them for about half an hour and would pick one of them up every few minutes to offer a dab of the baby food from my finger. On a couple of occasions they would take a small taste, but I had to scruff and stuff a couple of times. I may as well try it again before the rest of the baby food will go to waste if I don't try it again. What's the best way to heat chilled food back up to room temp for ferrets? It's already cooked so I doubt the microwave would hurt it any more nutritionally, but it might change the texture or taste.
Stella and Chewy's actually seems to be a little less expensive than Archetype (the new branding for Archtypal 1 if I understand it correctly), and it sounds like a good way to get introduce more meats. Duck and goose both count as red meats, right? Do they need more than one or two red meat proteins in their diet rotation?
The Nature's variety seems to be wet frozen commercial raw, so I worry it would be harder to get them used to since it can't be mixed with their kibble.
I'm not sure if they would like turkey very much, they don't seem to eat freeze dried turkey pieces whenever I leave some in their dish. They do seem willing to eat the freeze dried duck, though, so I think it'd be good for me to try a package of the duck, duck, goose. The freeze dried duck I give them as a treat came in a sample pack from Casey's Hidden Pantry, and I'm pretty certain it was actually a sample of the Stella and Chewy's food, so my ferrets may already like it which is a good sign.
I have the pheasant quail Archetype now When I have a couple different proteins, I can start rotating out the FDR I mix with the kibble. After I know they don't have reactions to them, how often should I change the protein (chicken, pheasant, duck/goose)? Is rotating it as often as every day (ie. whenever the bowl gets near empty and I dump and wash the dish) OK, or do ferrets have different preferences or needs in this area?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 16:11:21 GMT -5
Mine liked the Stella and Chewy's. The feline formula comes in dry little shapes. I always rehydrated it, but for your purposes, dry would work. The downside to that is that like kibble, it leaves them slightly dehydrated. You could hydrate your kibble and the Stella's. You don't want to mix wet and dry. The patties are frozen and usually for canines. Mine didn't like the frozen patties. Here is the product that I bought. They also offer a salmon and cod and the tummy ticklin turkey. There may be more choices now. I haven't bought them in awhile. www.amazon.com/Stella-Chewys-Freeze-Dried-12-Ounce/dp/B00979PV1I/ref=sr_1_2?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1409259050&sr=1-2&keywords=Stella+and+Chewy%27s+duck+duck+gooseDuck and Goose are considered red meat. I didn't know that and had to look it up (So, Thank you). I'm tagging katt for her approval and to make sure that Duck and Goose fulfill the red meat nutrient requirements. The more proteins, the better. I found that sticking with one protein until they liked it helped. So for two or three days, they might just get Quail. Now I stick with pretty much the same menu. For Bone In meals, I use: Cornish game hen, quail, chicken wings, duck wings and turkey wings. For muscle meats, I use beef, chicken or duck gizzards and of course hearts. Mine are crazy over gizzards, so one muscle meal is gizzards. I use either duck or chicken. Its only four meals, the fourth meal is usually turkey or some new protein like rabbit. For hearts, I use chicken, duck, and pork hearts. I tried beef heart, they didn't care for it. For organs, I use pork kidney, pork spleen, pork brains, chicken liver, pork liver. Mine also like Cod and shrimp. I still haven't tried smelt yet, but have bought some. Under the Frankenprey menu, you will have 7-9 meals of bone in. When I defrost a Cornish game hen, I usually serve it in the morning and then in the evening. That way it doesn't spoil or waste. You will have four meals of Muscle meats. Since heart is one of those, I follow that with a bone in, to make sure that poops are firm. For organ meals, I follow that with bone in, for the same reason. You can build your menu to fit your needs and each week, you learn a little more about their likes and dislikes. I like to space out my organ meals, say one organ meal on tuesday and one on saturday. The idea is to balance it out over a one week period, so if you have the right amount of Bone In, Muscle Meats and Organs, then you can choose how you build your menu.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 28, 2014 18:34:35 GMT -5
I'm definitely not ready for frankenprey yet, but I think the next major step I want to make besides more proteins is getting them comfortable eating wet food and soup. That's why I've been more interested in canned food lately. It turns out Wysong is changing their cans or something and that's why they're out of most of their Au Jus, and will continue to be out for a month or two.
Do most ferrets take to a raw frankenprey soup more easily than a soup made out of dry food they already eat (kibble and FDR), or is it pretty much the same fight either way? For kibble soup, some people soak the kibble for a while to soften it, but when I made it before I just ground up the kibble and then added it to water. Is either method better (ie. whole kibbles soak up the right amount of water whereas ground kibble blends in with whatever amount of water is added)?
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Post by raynebc on Aug 29, 2014 2:37:35 GMT -5
I went ahead and ordered some duck, duck, goose since the bag of freeze dried duck was labeled "Stella and Chewy's feline duck" and I have to imagine that's what it is. I mixed some of the leftover chicken canned food and beef baby food from earlier this week and I got them each to eat about 1.5 tsp of it. Even just one wet meal per day must dehydrate the ferrets at least a little less.
I know you weren't a fan of the Merrick, another alternative besides the Au Jus is Evangers. Evangers seems to have different kinds. Their canned food for ferrets is meant to be "complete" and has added vitamins and minerals. Their canned food for cats/dogs is simply meat, water, liver and guar gum (pretty much the same makeup as Au Jus).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 8:33:33 GMT -5
I checked out the Evangers, and that seems like a better option. They have three flavors, and that's good. You want at least three proteins.
Try a can or two and see if they like it.
I understand about taking your time with Frankenprey. I'm big on research and was cautious about making sure that I knew what I was doing before going to Frankenprey. That's why I used the FDR for almost a year.
I only fed kibble to my first ferret Ponce. I didn't find the forum, until he was sick with Insulinoma (bad kibble, too many treats) and then he developed Lymphoma. When Roamy and Juliet came home, I went straight to FDR. They had been eating kibble, but they didn't touch it, with the FDR sitting there and smelling so good.
Mika was a six to eight week old baby. She started out eating raw, but when she saw Roamy and Juliet eating FDR, she wanted that. She was my toughest switch.
Wynstan went right into raw. He never touched any kibble, after he left Petco. He was seven months old, so that was surprising.
Keller, my newest one grew up on kibble. She is doing fine with her raw soupies, not ready for bone, but will eat some small slices. At night, she is eating some of my emergency stock of FDR and fills up on that. Her FDR is slowly being reduced and by Monday, she won't have any at all. Her FDR is the Stella and Chewy's duck,duck,goose and tummy ticklin turkey.
So, the answer to what do most ferrets take to, easiest?, will depend on the individual ferret. I would suggest pick one method and stick to it, until you are ready to switch to Frankenprey. You don't want to go thru switching them to one food, then switching to another and then finally a switch to Frankenprey.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 29, 2014 13:14:30 GMT -5
I'll have to check out a couple pet stores, it doesn't seem like I can buy less than a dozen cans of the same protein of Evangers at a time online. A high end pet store near me (Northwest Pet) is listed on Evangers website as carrying it, but the pet store's website doesn't list it among their online inventory. They may have another all-meat canned food though and I can get a couple different proteins to try.
If I understand correctly, canned food is only good in the fridge for 2-3 days after opening so I'll have to toss the rest of the Merrick's away anyways. Until I get another wet food, I'll probably see if I can get them to eat baby food, maybe with some kibble powder and salmon oil if it helps them recognize it as food. They ate all of the freeze dried chicken liver I left them last night as they usually do, so that's still the top candidate for a liver source in the future. I usually alternate their treats between meat and organ and they get a little bit usually every couple of days. I hope this isn't enough to lower their calcium intake too much, but if their stools remain firm is that a sign they're getting enough of it?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 13:35:46 GMT -5
Calcium is important, so in the beginning we use the dried eggshell powder. Bones provide additional nutrients, so the eggshell powder is a start and shouldn't be used for long term.
You want to monitor the amount of Liver that they get. Liver has vitamin A and it stores itself in the body, and can build up to toxic amount. That's why the Frankenprey menu (and kibble) has a certain percentage of Liver. The Frankenprey menu amount is ten percent of what a ferret eats in a week.
Taurine, found in hearts is water soluble and doesn't build up in their bodies. Dried turkey hearts or dried chicken/duck hearts can be a safe treat. On the Frankenprey menu, we use ten percent as a guideline, but meat contains taurine also, so they actually get a little taurine with each protein. Tongue for example is high in taurine, and chicken thighs are also.
Instead of baby food, why don't you make the raw soupie recipe? You can make a batch of it and then pour it into ice cube trays and freeze it. Then you just pop the cubes out and let them defrost. The raw soupie recipe will have no added preservatives and you will know exactly what is in it.
You could do the same thing with different raw meats, just puree some raw chicken, some turkey or some beef. Any protein. Mentors usually start new switches with soupie and it seems simpler and less expensive than some of the options that you are considering.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 29, 2014 14:02:17 GMT -5
I got a reply from Merrick. According to them, the salt is only added in amounts needed for proper health/nutrition and not for flavor purposes. They indicate that the total amount of sodium in one can of the food is 813mg (this comes out to about 0.2% of the entire can of food by weight), and this is in line with AAFCO's standards for sodium content in cat food. I couldn't find where AAFCO listed dietary standards for ferrets. However, Merrick agreed cat food is more appropriate for ferrets, so I'll keep an eye out for it since apart from some vitamins and minerals (which I can add with a liquid supplement that I have) even this canned dog food seems it would be acceptable in a crisis (ie. ferret is ill and refuses dry food and won't take soupie, I'll have to offer a food I know they are willing to eat without a fight).
All they have regularly eaten so far is dry food, I wanted to get them used to the concept of wet food in case it took a long time to get them to eat raw soup. I'll try to take an inventory of what type of organs I can get locally. Lots of people on the forum praise ethnic food stores for carrying less common meats and organs. Is any food store in the US generally considered safe overall? Are any of them exempt from USDA inspections or standards? I've seen recommendations for the magic bullet blender, is this a good dedicated blender to use for soups?
They don't get a lot of chicken liver, but then again I don't know how large one single chicken liver is when it is freeze dried. I could guess that one single large piece is one liver, and I don't offer more than about one of those per week, usually less. How much liver is too much? It seems to be the most abundant freeze dried organ offered for pet treats. I'll keep an eye open for dried heart.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 14:33:34 GMT -5
Good for Merrick for replying. We've had some emails from ferrents who asked other companies questions, and they have been slow to reply or didn't bother to reply.
I use an Asian market in Nashville. I checked out four or five and then checked online for reviews. I saw the health inspection and feel comfortable with this market. There has been a scare lately with products from China, i.e Jerky products, but I only buy fresh foods from the States in the market.
The amount of Liver recommended in one week is ten percent of the weekly intake. So, assuming Cooper and Reska eat 4oz each a day. Four times seven is 28. So, ten percent of that is about 2.8 oz. for each ferret. You can weigh out the 5.6oz and put them in a baggie for the week and you will know that they aren't getting too much. Liver and organs make for looser, darker poops.
They do make some other freeze dried treats. Beef Lung is excellent. Dried cod is a favorite of mine. Whole Life offers small bags of different freeze dried treats, just the meat like rabbit, chicken, lamb and turkey. You can make your own dried treats. I think you've seen the thread, just ask if you haven't and I will link it for you.
I use a Magic Bullet for soupies. I love that little machine. It's super easy to use, cleans up well and comes with cups and lids. It also has two sizes in the basic Bullet package.
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Post by raynebc on Aug 29, 2014 15:18:23 GMT -5
They like dried salmon bits, one of the non-organ treats I give them. I'll ask Whole Life if they are willing to send me any samples. I'm just a little iffy on spending $25 for their 5oz variety pack. As you suggest, it may just be better for me to try making my own. My room mate would probably prefer if I didn't use the main oven to cook unusual things like animal hearts, but if a dehydrator would make suitable dried meats/jerkies I can definitely do that because I can put it in the garage and keep any weird smells contained in there. If you would post some links to relevant threads on the forum, I would definitely read through them.
I think I'll go ahead and put a Magic Bullet on my shopping list. Do I need to consider getting the higher end one, or is the one that goes for about $50 alright? For soup, I don't mind looking into getting bone meal if it's better than egg shell powder. Is that a better option then?
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Post by raynebc on Aug 31, 2014 0:07:44 GMT -5
In other threads, Oster blenders seem to be very widely used for raw soups. They're available for about the same cost, and one I'm looking at even has a food processor attachment which could be a nice bonus. Would I be better off with the Oster? A full size blender would definitely be nice since it would make larger batches of soup.
Copper often has a slightly darker pink color of pads when he's been sleeping so I'm not sure if he's just staying nice and warm while asleep. This can even happen when the room is only about 70 degrees. I don't know if this is just normal for him such as if he gets warm easily since he's much bigger than her sister. He seems to eat and drink well, and will party hard when riled up at playtime.
Tonight, I was giving them each about 1/4tsp of salmon oil with a dropper. Just to see what would happen I loaded their water into the dropper and they each took another 1 - 1.5tsp of water. They must have thought it was still a treat, since the dropper would still have some oil residue on/it it and so would the water. This may not be enough to make a huge dent in their hydration level, but it'll be a good trick to have in the bag if they are ill and I need to give them water. This may or may not be a significant amount of water compared to what they normally drink on their own, but while they're on dry food even an extra couple percent of water intake couldn't hurt.
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Post by katt on Aug 31, 2014 3:29:46 GMT -5
No, duck and goose are both white meat - all poultry is. Red meat isn't a requirement by any means, it is just recommended and ideal to have at least one red meat in the rotation for Vit B and iron. Beef, goat, lamb, bison, venison, moose, caribou are all red meats. Cloven hooved animals (excluding pigs) are generally all red meat.
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Post by raynebc on Sept 1, 2014 14:38:20 GMT -5
It seems Nature's Valley has a canned cat food that it cites as 95% meat, and a seller on Amazon even offers a variety pack that works out to about $2.25 per 3oz can which is surprisingly not bad considered how expensive shipping canned food usually is. Each variety of the food is a single protein source (lamb, chicken, beef, venison, rabbit or duck) and has the added vitamins, taurine, etc. that would be needed so it seems like this would be a really easy way to introduce them to several proteins without throwing off their nutritional balance, all while allowing me to monitor for an allergic reaction to a particular protein. On that topic, what would be the reactions I would need to watch for if one of them actually has a reaction? Would the ferret be extra itchy? Vomit? Have diarrhea?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 14:52:00 GMT -5
No, duck and goose are both white meat - all poultry is. Red meat isn't a requirement by any means, it is just recommended and ideal to have at least one red meat in the rotation for Vit B and iron. Beef, goat, lamb, bison, venison, moose, caribou are all red meats. Cloven hooved animals (excluding pigs) are generally all red meat. Thanks for clarifying that katt. I did some googling and should have known better. I found several articles that claimed duck and goose are red meat because, they are primarily dark meat. I found an article that says there is some debate going on about this issue. Next time, I'm surprised by something, I will ask you. (dance)
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