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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2012 22:38:32 GMT -5
I'm just wondering why people breed, specifically. Lately the whole idea of breeding pets is kind of bothering me so I wanted to get a perspective other than my own.
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Post by Sherry on Aug 23, 2012 22:47:53 GMT -5
Not a breeder obviously. But a good breeder breeds specifically to improve the species.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2012 22:57:56 GMT -5
I am not breeder (never will be). All of the breeders I know have gotten into breeding ferrets to produce a healthier pet than those produced by the ferret mills. Of course, I am providing only one answer for only the few breeders I know really, really well.
When you breed anything , nothing is perfect because nature is not available to "mediate"genetics. In fact, our medical capabilities allow babies to live that would not have done so without medical intervention. I am one of those early "miracle babies" that was never meant to be. I "culled" my own line - NO "skin kids".
-jennifer
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Post by Heather on Aug 23, 2012 22:58:01 GMT -5
If you really do it right, how it's supposed to be, it's to improve and better the breed. I'm going to be breeding my wee ones, so that I can have (I hope) longer lived, healthier ferrets. I've been doing a lot of research about 3 or 4 yrs now of what I would like to have as a ferret. I've seen what has been happening with the farm ferrets, even some of the breeder stock. Dying before they reach 4 and 5 of more diseases than most vets have ever seen in most other breeds. I've spent thousands trying to fix what the farms have created (last year was a good year, I managed to keep it under $10000) I've presently got a couple of little ones, purchased to hopefully allow me to start trying to create a better ferret. I want a little one that will live to be older than 5, to live a long and healthy life, to grow old (I'm not sure that's possible with what we have right now, but my hope is to possibly create a little one that can) instead of just growing sick. Why does breeding for pets bother you? Without a breeder you wouldn't have a ferret...why should we allow the farms to create a creature that is so poorly bred that they will die sooner and faster so that you have to keep replacing your little ones. If you look to them as a supplier to keep ferrets as a pet, you're doing your little ones a grave disservice. I suppose you can always go to the shelters but you're still perpetuating the farms. If there were no breeders (and you should never find a reputable breeders ferret in the shelters....all breeder's ferrets are to be returned to their place of origin....if you're tired of that ferret, can't care for that ferret it's supposed to be returned to it's home...not placed in a shelter. Breeder's...good breeders do not burden the system) ciao
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2012 23:28:05 GMT -5
I am rapidly developing an issue with breeding animals when there are still pets in shelters. And I don't see how you're perpetuating the farm if you're adopting from a shelter--the shelter isn't selling another ferret. And that is the *only* place I will ever go for any kind of pet. I do see where you're coming from with wanting to create a healthier animal though. Most of my issue is people breeding for a specific look or creating breeds. It irks me that people are so pretentious that they would think to themselves 'I would like an animal that looks like this, so I will just make one!' I understand why certain breeds came to be back when they were needed (i.e. mastiffs for protecting or border collies for herding) but breeds like sharpeis and boston terriers and bulldogs really got screwed over because humans were arrogant enough to think they should have a dog that looked just so. This probably isn't so much an issue with ferret breeding, more with cats, dogs and horses where there are different breeds. But I stand by my first point. I don't think there's any need to be breeding while animals are homeless in shelters.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 3:24:55 GMT -5
With dogs, everything really depends on the breeder and what they consider 'bettering the breed' is. Let's take the German shepherd for example. There are three distinct lines of German shepherds. American showline, German showline, and working line.
American showline breeders don't breed for much other than dogs that can trot nicely around the show ring and catch a judge's eye. In their opinion, that is bettering the breed, because they're breeding dogs to what their interpretation of what the American standard is. Almost all focus goes into the conformation, over temperament and working ability.
German showline dogs are basically bred for the same thing, but they're usually worked in a venue such as Schutzhund. (In Germany, it's a REQUIREMENT that German shepherds have a SchH title before being bred). However, the main focus is still conformation, but more mind is paid to the temperament and working ability than that of the American showline GSDs. (Mind you, they go by the German conformation standard, not American).
Working line breeders focus much less on the conformation, and center their attention almost entirely on working ability and temperament. They do pay some mind to the conformation, because sound conformation is what will allow a dog to do sufficient work for long periods of time, but they center their breeding goals on the working ability and temperament.
It's all in one's interpretation of 'bettering the breed.'
Now, with ferrets, I think the goal is much more centralized. Considering a large majority of ferrets come from mills, and little to no mind is paid to the health of the ferrets, there are a lot of health issues breeders aim to sort out. Mills focus on money and numbers, whereas private breeders primarily focus on health and temperament of their stock.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 3:35:14 GMT -5
Your german shepherd comment is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Why should humans have the right to 'better' any breed or even decide what would be better for the breeds? 'I know thousands of dogs are being put to sleep every day, but I don't want THOSE ones, I want to breed ones who have a proper bone structure and look nice when they run!'
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Post by goingpostal on Aug 24, 2012 7:06:40 GMT -5
Well as someone who has shelter dogs, I'd much prefer they had been bred by someone who knew diddly squat about conformation, they suffer for their bad breeding in many ways and structure can be a huge one. Not that I don't love my dogs a ton, but I'd love for them to not suffer from bad knees and allergies and seizures all because joe blow wanted to breed their pet.
Good breeders try to produce healthy, well tempered dogs that are excellent examples of their breed. They screen homes, microchip their puppies, keep track of them and take them back if need be. Bad breeders don't care what they are producing and usually wash their hands of them once they are gone.
Personally I wish everyone would stop buying farmed ferrets, it's just like a puppy mill, you are supporting keeping ferrets caged and bred continually and there are decent breeders out there, you might have to work a little harder but it seems to me that far too many people jump into ferrets because they are easy to buy and most don't keep them very long. The amount of rehoming posts on here and the numbers in shelters is depressing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 8:31:47 GMT -5
I am rapidly developing an issue with breeding animals when there are still pets in shelters. I think you're looking at it backwards... if more people purchase animals from a good breeder, who takes steps to ensure the health of his or her animals and is conscientious about selling them to the appropriate owners, there won't BE so many pets in shelters. Stopping the good breeders won't solve the end problem. I got my first dog off craigslist. He's one of the best things that has ever come into my life. And he's also from a mill, and has several genetic disorders that cause him pain and discomfort and me a lot of time and money to diagnose and treat. He's a genetic time bomb and I worry constantly what will go wrong next. I love this dog and I'm going to lose him too soon. On top of that, he was treated so poorly that we'll never fix all of his emotional scars. He's improved a thousand percent with people, but he has no idea how to be a dog around other dogs, and never will. When we decided to get a second dog, I was determined not to experience the same amount of heartache, for me OR the dog. So I went looking for an experienced, caring breeder. I really had to prove myself and my home to her before she agreed to place him with us, and it was perfectly clear that if she didn't like any of the (sometimes daily) updates I gave her, she would have him back. This dog is perfectly healthy and has a much better chance of staying that way, and was loved dearly before he was even born. If we don't create a need and a want for pets like that, why should people breed them? Don't place the blame with people trying to provide us with happy, healthy pets. Celebrate the responsible breeders, discourage the irresponsible owners, and always promote education!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 8:37:22 GMT -5
Well as someone who has shelter dogs, I'd much prefer they had been bred by someone who knew diddly squat about conformation, they suffer for their bad breeding in many ways and structure can be a huge one. Meant to add... yes, exactly! My mill dog has a horrible structure, and no, he does NOT look pretty when he runs. It's all wrapped up in his poor overall health, and the trouble his bones and joints give him. My dog from a licensed breeder is, frankly, much more aesthetically pleasing *because* he is healthy, and is gorgeous in motion. He's in proper working order
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Post by Sherry on Aug 24, 2012 9:02:58 GMT -5
I think you're looking at it backwards... if more people purchase animals from a good breeder, who takes steps to ensure the health of his or her animals and is conscientious about selling them to the appropriate owners, there won't BE so many pets in shelters. Stopping the good breeders won't solve the end problem. Agree with this 110%. I would far prefer people start looking to responsible breeders. Just because an animals gets win after win at a show does NOT mean the breeder is responsible for breeding for health. It means they are breeding for what will win. Which is why, when I get a breeder ferret, I will NOT go for the offspring of a show winner I want a ferret who has a chance at a long, healthy life. One where the breeder has paid more attention to health and longevity than on what they look like.
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Post by joan on Aug 24, 2012 9:16:13 GMT -5
I don't think there's any need to be breeding while animals are homeless in shelters. I disagree completely. There is a need for breeders who focus on breeding healthy, long lived ferrets with good temperaments. Oherwise, the only available ferrets would be those who are destined to die early from the various diseases which have resulted from breeding for the fancy colors. Unfortunately, far too many of the show breeders are as guilty of perpetuating the poor genetics and serious health problems as the commercial farm mills...to the extent that many of the privately bred ferrets from winning show stock have even shorter lives than the farm ferrets.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 9:42:05 GMT -5
This very topic is one I have so many issues with, having been seriously involved in rescue for many years now. Shelters overflowing, millions of unwanted dogs and cats being euthanized every year, it is a disgusting state of affairs in this country. The number of puppies available in the newspaper alone is columns and columns long and you know darn well every one of those ads are back yard breeders and puppymills bc a reputable breeder does not advertise ( or need to) in a newspaper.
PA had huge puppymill issues bc of the large population of Amish and Menonites in that state. The wonderful Governor Rendell really pushed to crack down and tighten up on the conditions those dogs live in and things improved. But, I live in NY state and many of those milers just closed up and moved north to NY, around our FingerLakes where farming is good and it is very rural and they have set up shop again. UNfortunately the counties in which these millers have relocated to are clueless and will grant applications for adding more dogs to the same mills that have been sited for non compliance of the already loose requirements for those dogs. It is the most frustrating thing!!!!
I understand breeding for the betterment of the breed, for trying to remove certain common health issues within a bred, but I think what you end up with is more problems in the long run. Or certainly many breeders do. Show breeders I have no use for, it is ridiculous. It is not about what they look like but their overall health. Case in point....I took in a pair of adorable, tiny chihuahuas from a woman who used to show. She became sick and couldn't care for them any longer and surrendered them. They were gorgeous little apple domes, both under 2 yo, lovely temperments, under 6 lbs ( show requirement) lovely markings, etc. The previous owner was a caring one and would keep track of them thru me and about had a heart attack when she found out I s/n them. Anyway, one went to a woman who has since adopted from me again and the other one, my daughter fell totally in love with and we adopted. I did actually attempt to rehome him but the two times I took him to visit potential homes, he very sweetly walked around and marked the residents dogs toys, lol....oh well) The female who was adopted has already passed from heart issues, she was 9 yo. My little guy also has serious heart issues, can no longer have dentals ( and he has a mes in that tiny mouth) is now 10 yo and I have no idea how much longer we will have with him but he is a very inactive little guy who just spends his days sitting in the sun. These are/were beautiful dogs with a long line of winning pedigree in them and they are both tiny, unhealthy train wrecks.
I pull from shelters and mills and take owner surrenders. The adoptive public has a horrible desire to adopt dogs under 5 yo and preferably much less, and heaven forbid, when adopting chihuahuas, if the poor dog is above 10 lbs, they have no chance of finding a home, even though they are very likely healthier, less likely to have the bad knees and the terrible dental issues that the smaller ones have.
It makes me wonder if the byb really does breed the healtheir dog bc they are just banging out puppies with what ever stud happens along and no thought to genetics. The dogs are ultimately larger, hopefully not closely related bloodlines, etc. I am speaking specifically of chihuahuas and of course this theory is loosely based but you get my drift.
I have seen pics of what the original dachshund looked like. Yes, long bodied, but also much longer legged and much larger. This is where the show breeders are at fault. Breeding them shorter and shorter and longer and it just can't possibly be healthy. We all know of the terrible issues with the Cavaliers, and the list of issues with the fine pedigrees goes on.
I could ramble on this subject all day but I wish it was harder to breed with required licensing, stringent requirements, limited litters, and laws that require s/n for the avg pet owner.
As for ferrets, I totally understand the desire to breed a longer lived weasel. I think the idea of bringing them in from the UK is likely to give the best chance of that bc we certainly have some pretty lousy bloodlines here and no offense to any breeders on this list. I know you are trying hard to do it right and I appreciate it but if they are NA bloodlines, it would make me wonder if you were up the creek without a paddle. Not accusing, just asking.
Rachellori, we are kindered spirits in view of what is going on in our overflowing shelters. It is a disgrace and the American publics desire to have a purebred puppy ( and not the cash to go out and research their breeder and buy the cheap one out of the newspaper or the impulse buy in the d*mn pet shop) is the depressing, common mindset. We just have to hope that by educating the public that the dogs stuck in shelters are just as wonderful as any other dog, and they did not get there bc they are bad dogs. They got there bc their owner was an butt.
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Post by crazylady on Aug 24, 2012 15:24:53 GMT -5
Hi I have been breeding for many many years ( as did my father and grandfather ) I breed for myself ( on the odd occasion I will let a ferret go ) I breed to keep bloodlines alive and improve the breed I am more into preserving the traditional ferret ( eg polecats with mask, hobs with large heads smaller female types ) I am not into oh they must be as black as possible its all about health and bone structure and I also ask can they do the job nature intended ? eg hunt ! I keep like to like when ever possible sable to sable albino to albino and so on do I have fancy colours sure on odd occasions accidents happen ! my son breeds pastels and silvers and dews are they deaf no ( fingers crossed he has avoided that so far ) do I breed every year no why its simple I keep whole litters ! as my ferrets age I may loose a lot over a period of two years ( if its a couple of full litters in the 9-10 age range ) then I consider what my next line will be I don't burden shelters I burden my own pocket and no one else's my father and my grandfather had a good saying and I use it too if you cant keep them don't breed them ! yes there are lots of ferrets sitting out there in shelters but a lot of breeders only breed what there is demand for and what sells being a judge I see it all over the world one year it maybe angoras next year it maybe pandas at the present time its the black solid the problem is genes are mixed up to make the fancy must have colouration and that is when the ticking time bomb begins ticking ! just my two pennies worth take care bye for now Bev
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 16:44:20 GMT -5
Obviously I am not a breeder, and that's something I'd never do. I do believe in breeding as many others before me. Not the backyard kind, but the good ones. Nowadays good breeders are rare. A real breeder don't breed for profit, just to improve the breed. I have had breeder dogs since I can remember. My Dad is a licensed hunter in Hungary, so he always had very excellent bloodlines. Most working breeds. Currently I have a Pit who's a breeder boy as well. And I know a lots of you rescue and 1000's of Pits die in shelter each and every year. But the way I see it, especially with that breed (and that's my choice of breed) I have to know where my dog came from. I can't have any fighting line in my dog, since I have other pets and I have friends with dogs, and that would be a disaster waiting.
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