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Post by Sherry on Jun 1, 2012 16:18:34 GMT -5
You say she loves bone. Can you watch and see exactly how much bone she's actually consuming? Our Lucrezia adored chewing on the bone buy when I watched closely I realized she wasn't actually consuming very much. She'd bite a chunk off, chew and chew. Then the brat would spit most of the bone back out! I was first clued into this by Lucrezia developing a prolapse as well.
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Post by katt on Jun 3, 2012 17:53:41 GMT -5
By muscle tone I meant not body muscle tone but tone of the anal sphincter. Have you talked to your vet about this problem? If it's clearing up, it could be that she just needs time to adjust to the diet? I'd really consider talking to your vet about it though...
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Post by mjbez on Jun 4, 2012 23:22:49 GMT -5
You say she loves bone. Can you watch and see exactly how much bone she's actually consuming? Our Lucrezia adored chewing on the bone buy when I watched closely I realized she wasn't actually consuming very much. She'd bite a chunk off, chew and chew. Then the brat would spit most of the bone back out! I was first clued into this by Lucrezia developing a prolapse as well. So far, from what I have watched she actually consumes almost all of the bone she is eating. The odd piece falls out but I can hear her crunch and crunch and nothing comes out alot of the time. For example, she eats chicken backs with very little waste. I watched her eat her necks tonight and I watched some bone fall out of her mouth. She licked it up and chewed... it never came back out. I think she is doing OK with the consumption of bone. Now, I do plan to take her to the vet, but I would like to just keep an eye on it for the next couple of days. Now that they have only been on their true "menu" for a short while I want to see if it gets better. By all means if it looks worse at all I will take her in asap, but the last few times I checked it isn't really prolapsed, just looks a little sore. (a touch of dark pink showing, but not pushed out.. if that makes sense). Im just curious.. what could be done about the muscle tone of the sphincter? Is there a fix for that? I hope that isn't it. She has good control of her bowel movements. Other than my little Kyra, all is pretty well with the ferrets. I have been so busy and swamped lately, I apologize for the late response. I will be busy over the next few days as well, in the hospital with a family member who just had surgery. Life has just been crazy, but I promise to keep everyone updated.. I just might not be as prompt. I will do my best
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Post by mjbez on Jun 6, 2012 22:31:01 GMT -5
Update: Kyra's little bum is seeming more stable now. I haven't seen it prolapse for a few days now. It is still a little sore looking but is looking better. I have been feeding 1/2tsp pumpkin to her daily (she eats it out of the measuring spoon) She really likes it now. Some meals, such as commercial lamb, soup and organs I add the pumpkin to the meal. In those days I do not give her extra. Mika and Bear's bums look good, so I think balance must be OK. Can I make a change to the menu? I haven't been able to find bone meal supplement very easily.. so will not be adding it to the soup. There is a little bit of egg shell in there, but not a terribly large amount (about 1/2 tsp for all three .. and so much of it seems to sink to the bottom so it isn't all consumed. I do not have a mortar and pestle, so I have just been crushing it as fine as possible). Can I change the Friday boneless pork to a bone in pork? That would mean I am feeding 8 meals with bone plus the soup with a little egg shell... However, I don't know the amount of bone in my commercial raw, it may be a lower amount considering it is actually meant for cats and dogs. It doesn't have a percentage. If you think I am feeding too much bone with that adjustment, I will stick to boneless pork. Otherwise, things seem to be going OK. I am and will continue to keep a close eye on Kyra's bum. Her prolapses had me worried sick. If there is any negative change, I will have her looked at... but right now it seems she may be getting better. (knock on wood) All of the ferret's energy seems pretty good. They used to find a spot to sleep part way through their time out to play. Now they are awake for much more of it. They are all playing and exploring around. Even Kyra is playing, which used to be fairly rare, now it is almost a daily occurrence. She still spends most of her time at my feet though The right side of Bear's mouth has now pearly white teeth! All the plaque is gone! Now he just needs to chew on his left. lol. It is amazing what eating bone can do! (and his breath smells soooo much better!)
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Post by katt on Jun 7, 2012 4:22:21 GMT -5
Hmmm well it depends on how much of the pork bone they will eat. A good "bone-meter" is their poop. Softer poops = needs more bone. Obviously other things factor into their poop too, but bone is a big one. If you can't find bone meal, other calcium supplements work - bird bones (the little white chews for pet birds, I can't remember what they are called) can be ground up - they are pure calcium (don't get the flavored kind). Pet stores also sell reptile calcium (no phosphorus or D3). Remember that the menu is not static, it's a guideline to ensure a balanced diet.
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Post by katt on Jun 9, 2012 17:59:55 GMT -5
Bear: Bear loves organs, lamb, duck, soups, he also seems to like the pork with bones. He is doing pretty well with beef now, I wouldn't peg it as a favorite but he eats it fine. He also seems to like chicken. He is a good eater, I can't say there is anything he refuses to eat! So he has organs, bones, and variety - what size chunks is he taking right now? What about heart? Mika: Mika likes to eat! She eats everything.. except I think it is her who spits out the turkey chunks in the chicken soup! Will she eat turkey chunks not in soup? Chicken chunks not in soup? What size chunks will she eat? She is taking bone okay - actually eating it an not just chewing on it correct? Kyra: Kyra really likes bones. Chicken seems to be her favorite. She is eating all the meat varieties really well. She puts up a fight with everything new for like a day but then once the drama stops she realizes its not so bad! ;DWhat size chunks will she eat? I will try turkey wing again next week. It doesn't seem to be a favorite with anyone but they eat it, just not as excitedly as chicken! Turkey hasn't been fed as often either. Keep working on it, it can take some time. Try feeding it without other foods. So JUST turkey wing, no soup, not mixed in with anything, etc. Then they can't pick out the bits that they like and spit out the turkey. Just watch to make sure that they are actually eating it and not just boycotting dinner entirely because you only offered turkey. Ferrets are like little kids. If you give them a dinner of mashed potatoes, mac N cheese, and broccoli, of course they won't eat the broccoli! I don't hand feed anything anymore. Everything is fed in chunks (good size now) and I don't need to soupie coat anything anymore. I cut wings into 4 pieces (down the middle then in half) and I still crush them a bit. I don't really know what there is to work on when it comes to food. I will be trying chicken necks soon as well. I think they will be a hit. (fingers crossed) If they eat chicken, they should eat the necks. They seem to be doing very well with bones overall correct? You may just need to smash the necks up a little bit. That's good that you don't have to hand feed. You can still offer a little chunk of meat or so as a hand-fed treat. Try not to get back to them being dependent on hand feeding though, it could make your life difficult.
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Post by mjbez on Jun 9, 2012 19:09:35 GMT -5
I will probably get some cuttle bone (those are the fish bone things you put in for birds I believe) I never realized I could use those! Is it possible that the organ meals could cause some prolapsing? I noticed that Mika strained a little after an organ meal (quite a few hours later) and she had a mild prolapse that went away right away. Kyra's bum was looking better and then after the organ meal it looked a little more sore again. No big prolapses that I have noticed though. Just sore looking. I don't know if it was the organs for sure but could it be? I add about a tsp and a half of pumpkin to the organs to help firm up the poops but they still have very soft poops after eating organs. Should I be adding more pumpkin? or.. Should I split those meals up? Like over 4-5 meals? What is the best way to do that when they would then have organs and other meat? I will take a look at my menu but maybe I could add then to commercial raw, soup and maybe even boneless meats? I would just want to make sure that all of the fuzzies eat both the organ meal and the other meat. This is going to be much much more inconvenient than just having an organ meal (cutting organs up is long process, perhaps I will begin pureeing them), but do you think this is worth a try? I can readjust my menu to accommodate this if it may help. I am panning on trying quail tomorrow. I will let you know how that goes. Other than that, things are going well. I hope you have a great weekend!
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Post by mjbez on Jun 9, 2012 19:37:09 GMT -5
Bear: Bear loves organs, lamb, duck, soups, he also seems to like the pork with bones. He is doing pretty well with beef now, I wouldn't peg it as a favorite but he eats it fine. He also seems to like chicken. He is a good eater, I can't say there is anything he refuses to eat! So he has organs, bones, and variety - what size chunks is he taking right now? What about heart? He is eating about 1 x1/2-3/4 chunks of boneless meats (that is the size I cut). Chicken wings are cut into 4. I have been cutting hearts in quarters, but will be moving it to halves. Bear eats all of this fine.Mika: Mika likes to eat! She eats everything.. except I think it is her who spits out the turkey chunks in the chicken soup! Will she eat turkey chunks not in soup? Chicken chunks not in soup? What size chunks will she eat? She is taking bone okay - actually eating it an not just chewing on it correct? Mika is eating chicken (like wings, backs etc) and the turkey wing as well. The only thing I feed in soup are the turkey pieces on Monday meal. Nothing else has soup anymore. Sometimes I feed soup when they finish their meal quickly and need more food (this only happens once in a while... when they have a piggy attack! lol. The one meal they ate 6oz of food!) This past Monday when I fed the chicken soup with turkey chunks there were no chunks left behind (not even 1!), So i think they may be getting used to turkey. She is eating bone as well. They all are. There usually is not much waste after a bone meal, just a few shards here and there. Kyra: Kyra really likes bones. Chicken seems to be her favorite. She is eating all the meat varieties really well. She puts up a fight with everything new for like a day but then once the drama stops she realizes its not so bad! ;DWhat size chunks will she eat? She eats the same size chunks as Bear, because that is what I offer. I find if i offer them too big they eat less. I like the approx 1x3/4'' boneles.. and the wings are in 4 peices so about 1.5x1''. I think Kyra would do fine with even larger, because she is probably the best chunk eater, she prefers chunky meats I think. Shes really good at chewing and chewing on a piece until it is gone. She will eat multiple chunks at once with most meats (I watched as she ate 3 of those chunks of pork the other day)I will try turkey wing again next week. It doesn't seem to be a favorite with anyone but they eat it, just not as excitedly as chicken! Turkey hasn't been fed as often either. Keep working on it, it can take some time. Try feeding it without other foods. So JUST turkey wing, no soup, not mixed in with anything, etc. Then they can't pick out the bits that they like and spit out the turkey. Just watch to make sure that they are actually eating it and not just boycotting dinner entirely because you only offered turkey. Ferrets are like little kids. If you give them a dinner of mashed potatoes, mac N cheese, and broccoli, of course they won't eat the broccoli! I do not feed turkey wings with any other foods. The only food that gets mixed is the turkey chunks on monday meal with soup. All other foods are fed plain (beef chunks plain, only chicken wings etc) I dont offer variety in a single meal because I know that they will only pick what they want! (little stinkers )I don't hand feed anything anymore. Everything is fed in chunks (good size now) and I don't need to soupie coat anything anymore. I cut wings into 4 pieces (down the middle then in half) and I still crush them a bit. I don't really know what there is to work on when it comes to food. I will be trying chicken necks soon as well. I think they will be a hit. (fingers crossed) If they eat chicken, they should eat the necks. They seem to be doing very well with bones overall correct? You may just need to smash the necks up a little bit. That's good that you don't have to hand feed. You can still offer a little chunk of meat or so as a hand-fed treat. Try not to get back to them being dependent on hand feeding though, it could make your life difficult. I definitely do not have to hand feed anything anymore, *whew*. I have fed necks twice now... once was today and there are quite a few left. For some reason they are not as big of a hit yet. I will continue with them though. Kyra likes them, Bear likes to try to steal Kyra's (after she has eaten it to a smaller more convienient size, the lazy bum!) and Mika eats them as well. I am just assuming it isn't a favorite because usually there is next to nothing left of a meal they like! However, they ate a lot of pork last night, so perhaps they just weren't as hungry today. They all did eat some though. I will feed quail tomorrow. Fingers crossed no hand feeding necessary. I plan on cutting the little bird before offering.. I was thinking in half lengthwise then maybe twice on each length (so it would be 6 pieces) I am not even sure if 1 quail will be enough. I kind of doubt it but I hope so because they are not a cheap meal! I will start with just one tomorrow, until they are use to it so there isn't as much waste hopefully. But it will be worth it if the ferrets like it. I will probably feed it once a week or so if they do. This mixed with the idea that I may need to spread my organ meals out will mean a menu redo. Once I find out if you think I should try the organs over a few days I will rework the menu.
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Post by katt on Jun 10, 2012 2:04:36 GMT -5
Perfect! They are all up to par! I see no reason to spread your organ meals out. What you have in your last menu is pretty much perfect. On meal of heart, one of organs, and half heart half organs, the rest of the week meats and bones. That gives them 10% organ (half liver, half other), 10% heart. That's what they need. Spreading it out just makes it that much harder IMO to really make sure you feed 10% each week. Your menu here looks just fine. Obviously other meats are going to get rotated through and sapped out for variety. The menu is meant to be a guideline and way to demonstrate that you know how to provide the proper amounts of organ, heart, meats, and bones. You have been doing great.
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Post by mjbez on Jun 10, 2012 2:17:17 GMT -5
Is it possible that the organ meal poops (which are very very soft, some dont have much shape) are causing or contributing to Kyra's prolapse? That was why I was wondering if I should spread them out. Their poops are only this soft on an organ meal, all other meals give them more firmness. Or could I add something to the organs? (other than the 1 1/2 tsp pumpkin I already add?)
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Post by katt on Jun 10, 2012 2:22:34 GMT -5
Very possible, but then she should in theory only have that small prolapse on organ days. Adding a little calcium supplement to those meals might help. If it really is only 2 days a week though, and it's not causing the other 2 problems, I'm not sure I'd worry too much. Spreading it out is something you could certainly try, but it might just make their poops softer all week long. Here are some other problems I've found with spreading it out: you don't know who is eating what - maybe Bear loves liver and Mika is less fond of it. Bear will gobble it up, and Mika will eat around it. Then he's getting more liver and she's not getting any. Some ferrets will self regulate, but not all - do you really want to count on them to do that? Also, along the same lines, it is a bit harder to determine that they are actually getting their full 10%. Certainly not impossible, I've done it before and others have as well. You just have to be a bit more aware of what you are feeding, how often, and how much. It is up to you, you can certainly give it a try and see if it helps! Just some factors to consider.
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Post by mjbez on Jun 10, 2012 22:50:57 GMT -5
So I think I will just add cuttlebone to the organs. I figure that is worth a try first. I have bought a cuttlebone already so I am going to give it a shot and see if it helps. Using calcium is easier than trying to spread out the organs over many meals, I agree. I am going to use a grater to grate the cuttlebone.. how much would you suggest I add to the organs for all 3 of the ferrets? Is it possible to "overdose" calcium? (I know to watch for constipation and dry poops but that hasn't seemed to be an issue so far, ESPECIALLY after an organ meal! lol) Also, I fed quail today. They seemed to like it OK. They all ate some with no waste on the pieces they ate at all (so no bones were left behind). They still have some left, but I will be leaving it in the cage until morning. I loved watching them crunch down and eat all of those bones! Quail seem to be a good bone source, because all of the bones are small and edible. Bear seems a little lazy with the quail pieces. I got him interested but showing him the upper body part with the neck. It seems if the chunk is to large he doesn't want to try to much on it. He just moves it and drops it. Once he started on it he seemed to really like it! He ate the whole piece (1/8th the quail). He seems to like skinnier pieces of meat so that he can easily chew on them.. the lazy thing!
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Post by Heather on Jun 13, 2012 20:14:44 GMT -5
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Post by mjbez on Jun 14, 2012 23:45:22 GMT -5
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Post by katt on Jun 15, 2012 12:48:54 GMT -5
Congrats!!!! You and your fuzz did great! If you need anything you can always send me a PM or make a public thread. Your guys are chomping meats and bones likes pros now! Good job!
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