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Post by Heather on May 3, 2011 15:42:12 GMT -5
I'm wondering a lot about the lighting thing. A few years ago, I went the whole green thing...you know change the light bulbs save hydro, take advantage of Gov't discounts and bonuses for using these stupid bulbs. Since going that route, I'm seeing adrenal. Now, I know my old guys probably had adrenal but they didn't die of it, they were old. Renal failure, cancers...I had my share of lymphomas, a couple of cardiac issues but I was getting ferrets who were living to be 8, 9, 10 yrs old. Hey, Mad Max was about 10 or 11. These are rescues, many didn't have a great start in life. In the last 2 yrs of having these bulbs, I've had a huge increase in aggressive adrenal and the ages of which they're dying from this is younger. I'm presently treating 5 of my 10 fuzzes for adrenal. It's disgusting. Yuri is my youngest at 4 or 5 yrs of age. My oldest ferret is Odin, who is 8 or 9 (scary) and Sprite who is 7 or 8. Sprite has been fighting adrenal for 2 yrs now. Odin who was a later alter (he was 4 or 5 yrs old, so I mean late alter) has no issues in that respect at all....So, I've taken all the eco-bulbs out of my house. I will pay a little extra in hydro just to protect my furbrats if that what it takes to get them living a bit longer again ciao
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Post by joan on May 3, 2011 16:02:14 GMT -5
I totally agree with Marie that ferrets can and do have a genetic predisposition to adrenal disease, particularly with the early neutering. All of the ones I've owned and bred which were necropsied after their deaths (7-9 years old) have had no sign of adrenal disease whatsoever and their adrenal glands were completely normal. These were all neutered at 6 months (most of the hobs) to just under a year, which would correlate to the time that most US privately bred ones are neutered. The majority were kept under artificial lighting much of the time, so that should have predisposed them to adrenal problems if they had the genetics to develop it.
FWIW, these were all linebred/inbred sables from sable only background...UI (Doug McKay) bloodlines. I have never used ferrets from any of the US show lines for breeding, as I could not find any breeders with lines free of the fancy colors.
Edited to add that I have always asked my kit buyers NOT to use any preventatives, such as Lupron or the implants, as I needed to know if any of them had the genetics to develop adrenal disease.
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Post by crazylady on May 3, 2011 17:14:05 GMT -5
Hi I too breed sable to sable albino to albino but I do have other colours sandy, dew ( non of whom are deaf ) silvers, silver mitts these have a varied genetic make up and non of these have shown any signs of adrenal or insulinoma you also have to take into consideration that the black self has now been added to the sable gene pool to enhance colour will this weaken the genetic make up of the sable ? angoras were once thought to be adrenal free and this turned out to be false I guess we will all have to wait and see what is thrown up regarding the colour mixes in the gene pool take care bye for now crazy lady
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Post by joan on May 3, 2011 18:07:31 GMT -5
Bev, you didn't mention whether or not you do a necropsy to determine the exact cause of death and whether there are any other conditions present which weren't apparent. Since I want to know anything which might have affected the ferret, whether or not it was the cause of death, I offer to pay for a necropsy if the owner either can't or doesn't want to, and it's mandatory for the retired breeders I place.
IMO, the black selfs and the angoras are a genetic disaster. I can't imagine that any knowledgeable breeder who has health as a priority would consider using either of them in a well thought out breeding program. I like the dark color as much as anyone, but not at the expense of the ferret's health or that of its descendents.
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Post by crazylady on May 3, 2011 18:23:05 GMT -5
Hi Joan I agree with you regarding the angora and black self over the years on my travels around the world I have noticed big problems in angoras ( over shot/ undershot jaws) and in the black selfs the eye size and skull size is severely impaired ( lots cross the black self to a sable to try and improve colour BUT loose both eye size and skull definition ) if one of my ferrets dies without cause yes I always have a necropsy carried out I keep in depth records of births litter sizes matings and deaths I try to breed for health and longevity obviously if a ferret is 10 to 12 years old and slows up showing a gradual decline due to old age I do not deem a necropsy necessary but anything under the age of ten is checked out for my own peace of mind there is no point in my mind of destroying years of hard work continuing a line if it contains a flaw at the moment black self seems to be the in colour world wide and I must confess it makes me feel sad because so many pure sable lines which have the potential to be dark without adding in the black self are being destroyed and once they are tainted there is no going back dark sables do exist ( I have a few ) all it takes is selective breeding and patience take care bye for now Bev
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 5, 2011 15:58:55 GMT -5
I just spoke to an awesome and VERY ferret knowledgeable veterinarian (Dr. Susan Keheller at Broward Avian & Exotic) BTW, it is so wonderful to speak with a doctor that knows so much and cares.... She highly suggested that I continue to re-implant Sonny once per year with the deslorelin. She has implanted many ferrets and so far, the results are good with deslorelin. She advised that she has not seen any side effects at all. she is also actually testing the hormone levels of the implanted ferrets at various times during the year (she said that the person checking the hormone levels is not even charging for it ) I think i'm may sign Sonny up for that.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 19:04:34 GMT -5
She advised that she has not seen any side effects at all. she is also actually testing the hormone levels of the implanted ferrets at various times during the year (she said that the person checking the hormone levels is not even charging for it ) I think i'm may sign Sonny up for that. I hope the results will be published or otherwise shared It's become quite popular to implant ferrets over here (mainly as a preventative in both intact as well as fixed ferrets), and the only side effect I've heard of so far is irregularities with the coat changes, which is not really surprising.
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Post by Sherry on May 5, 2011 21:28:12 GMT -5
I'd heard it was really good for bringing males out of rut, but could potentially cause breeding problems down the road. Now, for those of us who aren't going to be breeding, obviously that wouldn't be a problem. Have you heard of anything like that, Marie? Or even if it's any good for keeping a jill out of season?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2011 8:35:58 GMT -5
I'd heard it was really good for bringing males out of rut, but could potentially cause breeding problems down the road. Now, for those of us who aren't going to be breeding, obviously that wouldn't be a problem. Have you heard of anything like that, Marie? Or even if it's any good for keeping a jill out of season? I can't say I've heard anything like that for males, but then I hardly know of any who have bred their males afterwards. This is still early days in Sweden. The first ones to implant were around 2008, I think, and many are now on their second round of implants. There are several who are planning to later breed both implanted jills and hobs, but we're not quite there yet. I do know of one or two jills who have been bred and at least one of them had a very small litter of only two kits. There's actually a study available on this: veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/166/3/74.abstractAs you can see, none of the five jills in the implanted group were able to conceive on their first heat. Three conceived normally and had normal litters on their second heat. So in other words, one can expect a certain reproductive delay after the implant has worn off. Maybe there can be something similar for males? In Europe, people are implanting intact jills as much as they do intact hobs, and it's working well for the most part. Some things to note in addition to strange coat cycles, is that there might be a decrease in weight and muscle in some of the implanted ferrets (both genders). And some can have a rather strong reaction and have a drastic weight loss and/or have drastic coat changes/issues where the ferret might experience temporary alopecia to a certain extent, particularly if implanted during full season. That might be due to the extra initial hormonal surge in addition to their own high levels of sex hormones at the time. My overall impression is that it's highly individual how a ferret, male or female, intact or fixed, adrenal or not, will respond to deslorelin. One important factor might be the time of implantation. It seems best, for most, to implant off season (during fall, winter) instead of during the spring and summer months (it's often a similar thing with surgical castration). Some people with neutered ferrets that exhibited certain sexual behaviour prior to the implant haven't experienced much difference after implantation. That has also been the case with at least one intact hob that I know of. Some people have experienced that the implant didn't take effect at all, and in those cases it was believed that the implant might have fallen out shortly after the injection. But there are also many who report excellent results, in both hobs and jills, so there's clearly a bit of variation.
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Post by Sherry on May 6, 2011 9:44:23 GMT -5
I do know that some of our altered mill ferrets don't respond to the des. either, when implanted for adrenal. But then- some don't respond to lupron either, so it could be that with the intact one as well. But good to know it can be used to keep jills out of estrus! The only studies I'd seen had only looked at males.
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Post by joclyn on May 6, 2011 13:22:38 GMT -5
i asked dr wagner about effectiveness of the des implant as well as was he seeing fluctuations (symptoms returning & then disappearing again) as well as if he had seen delayed reaction (aka improvement of symptoms) to the implants.
he gave a resounding Yes! to seeing delayed reaction to the med as well as fluctuations with symptoms coming/going. he also said that lupron should be given if the symptoms return if it's too early to do another des implant.
finola initially had a return of muscle mass/weight (within the first 3 weeks after the implantation) and then gradually lost it and her fur did NOT regrow at all - even with adding in the melatonin implant. it was 6 months before the med seemed to 'click in' in her system - she regained her muscle mass/weight and her fur came back. now, she's looking like her normal fabulous self, lol.
duncan never really regained too much muscle mass/weight - and didn't gain winter weight, either, when that season hit. he was always skimpy with muscle mass - even before this disease really hit, so, it was worrisome, yes - not 'out of the norm' for him though as, even with the lupron, he never gained all that much muscle. he was a mckay, so, i suspected his tumor was cancerous and i was told by ruth (when she was judging him) that both his glands were enlarged and that could also indicate his growths were cancerous...and that situation would negate the effects of the med anyhoo...did not have opportunity to have dr wagner take a quick look at dunc at the show - would have loved to have his observations about dunc.
at necropsy, the vet didn't biopsy anything really wish she had!!! she did say that duncan had ectoptic adrenal tumors on the vena cava - don't know if that indicates cancer or not...
sorry, the whole point of that was that the deslorelin didn't do anything for duncan.
it has helped boo boo & chauncey and immediately, too! although i have seen recurrance of symptoms and then their disappearance again. taco it didn't seem to do much other than give him some energy - and maybe helped with prostate a little (although the vet never said it was enlarged, i did see an increase in his output after the implant was put in, so it probably was a bit enlarged & the med got it back in order).
i joked with dr w about making an appt with him to get the next round of implants as well as get the rest done as preventative...i have two clinics here i can get the med at though, so, really wasn't a need to travel more than 5 hours AND stay overnight...until i got the news that this med is on backorder and pretty much indefinitely. so, looks like i will be making that trip cross-state...
with the lighting issue - heather, that's VERY curious and interesting that you're seeing such a difference since using the cf's! i wonder if the mercury in them gives off some kind of vapor that is affecting the animals (and us) ?? that's very, very curious (and not in a good way).
we're not in the 'forced to use cf's' situation yet...iirc the law goes into effect in 2012 here. i am NOT looking forward to it!! the flickering isn't condusive to being able to read properly and it's also an issue with being a migraine trigger.
the biggest issue i have with them is the mercury in them and what's going to happen when they need to be disposed of! also, breakage inside the house. no, there's not much of the stuff in them...enough to cause issues though, if it's inhaled or touched after the tubes break...actually, it would be more an issue for any animals (any, not just ferrets) rather than humans, i'd think. the used ones are going to land up in the landfills - causing even more damage to the environment than the currect incandescent ones do
joan, clarify please!! do you mean to say that most of your sable lines came from doug mckay? if that's true and they were healthy, that must be from a very long, long time ago!!!
when he closed down, the majority of the ferrets taken off his farm were fancies and a huge majority of them have (or had as is the more common situation since their placement in permanant homes) kidney and digestive tract issues as well as lymphoma.
i took in 3 and lost one within 8 months due to lymphoma (completely throughout his system, brain included, although it was evident it started in the intestines) and just lost another one to kidney issues. the first one was a 'mutt' with toe tips/bib and the second was a champagne with toe tips/knees.
i'm really hoping the last one, winston, fares better. he was only about 8 months old when i got him, so, he's had a decent diet for most of his life & it's been even better since moving them to raw. although he's a dark sable, he does have a 'tie', so, is a 'fancy' and he is starting to exhibit some adrenal behaviours...which started at about 3 1/2...
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2011 14:34:42 GMT -5
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Post by Heather on May 6, 2011 15:14:38 GMT -5
This rather says it all ##He said that the bluer light that CFLs emitted closely mimicked daylight, disrupting the body's production of the hormone melatonin more than older-style filament bulbs, which cast a yellower light.## I"m disgusted. I couldn't figure out what was wrong and what I had been doing differently.....the only thing I could think of was the light bulbs. I was seeing active adrenal in my guys for the last 2 years. That's how long I've had these stupid light bulbs throughout the house. I've already replaced the bulbs in the ferret room and their favourite play/sleep space...the rest of the house is now getting a whole make over too ciao
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 6, 2011 15:29:48 GMT -5
makes sense doesn't it. we barely turn the lights on since we moved into this house. i'll have to get rid of the few energy saver light bulbs that we have. not good at all. one of the vets that i go to told me to keep the ferret "in the dark" as much as possible. so we hardly ever turn the lights on in the room where Sonny lives. when we let him out to play, we basically have just the kitchen lights on with the dimmer and the glare from the t.v. Sonny's a little vampire. LOL.
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 6, 2011 15:32:25 GMT -5
but you know what, i'm going to throw out the like 25 watt full spectrum light bulb that i use in Sonny's room! i have tiny lamp and that is my only source of light when i need to see i bought a tiny 25 watt full spectrum bulb that is made for chandeliers. but full spectrum light mimic natural light. so i would think that is worse! and yet, one of the vets told me to use the full spectrum bulbs?? i'm confused.
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