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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 4:11:34 GMT -5
I just want to interject, once again, that not all and every ferret does get adrenal after surgical castration.
Like I've mentioned before, I have an entire lineage of ferrets that has not become adrenal despite castration usually around 1 year of age and a life span of about 8-9, and there are others like that too.
I understand completely that you have a different situation for the majority of ferrets in North America, and I do understand that as a ferret owner, all you want to do is to take the safest route possible and try to prevent any adrenal problems. I think it's great that des is being tried out on a larger scale and I hope it'll keep the problems at bay.
However, from a non-commercial breeder's point of view I have mixed feelings about masking a, most likely, genetic problem. I'm actually glad that des wasn't around for any of my kit buyers to use as a preventative. Because if that had been the case, I would never have known that adrenal disease hasn't been a problem in the line, so far.
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 3, 2011 7:13:17 GMT -5
How about sending us some of your ferrets? I have had marshalls ferrets live past 8 years. my friend has had several live to 9 (one 10 yr old and one 12 year old!) But as for mine, almost all have developed Adrenal tumors. However, I will say that we knew several people up north that got their ferrets from private breeders (one even drove 8 hrs to go pick the ferts up) and they also suffered from the same health problems as my marshalls. Even the late neuters. So I think that across the big pond there is just a better gene pool. period. Is it even possible to bring a ferret in to the US from Sweden?? I think with private breeders you can call them afterward and complain if the ferret develops Adrenal and wo they will hopefully not breed those ferrets again but I think the commercial breeders don't care and won't do anything to rectify it. If I could i would get an intact ferret.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 7:34:04 GMT -5
I have had marshalls ferrets live past 8 years. my friend has had several live to 9 (one 10 yr old and one 12 year old!) But as for mine, almost all have developed Adrenal tumors. That's very good life spans, but like you say, I get the impression that's it's often not healthy years but a life span achieved with more or less extensive veterinary care? I was just about to ask about the privately bred But are there really no ferrets over there that don't develop adrenal disease over time?? Europe has good and not so good ferrets, like most other places. One has to do a bit of research when buying ferrets. Also, many European countries have a huge dominance towards fancy colours of all sorts and most of them originate from imports, including imports from the US and Marshall farms and others like that. The best bet to find something outside of the "mainstream" is typically to seek out breeders and countries that keep local lines originating from that particular region. Yes. Once you understand how it works and what's required it's actually quite easy. But I don't sell, of course
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 3, 2011 8:05:36 GMT -5
Oh of course, most older marshalls ferrets need a lot of vet care. But some don't. There are exceptions. We have had them go 7 years without any issues. that is pretty good I guess. I give them supplements though. The biggest issues are insulinoma (which hopefully I will not encounter again) and Adrenal disease. Mind you, some can live a long time with Adrenal tumors and you don't even know that they have tumors. I've had ferrets that haven't even lost a lot of fur. Something else usually does them in before Adrenal. But a few develop severe muscle atrophy, ulcers, gastrointestinal issues. in males: prostate enlargement, bladder cancer. it is a horrible disease.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 8:36:01 GMT -5
Mind you, some can live a long time with Adrenal tumors and you don't even know that they have tumors. I've had ferrets that haven't even lost a lot of fur. I assume you've had necropsies done so that you know that they had adrenal tumours? That's how I know that none of mine so far (the ones I've kept) have had any adrenal problems. As for the kits that I've sold, some have done necropsies and others have not. But in the cases where they've lived a good and normal life span without developing a single symptom of adrenal disease, I don't think there's a problem.
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 3, 2011 10:56:10 GMT -5
As for the kits that I've sold, some have done necropsies and others have not. i thought you said that you did not sell ferrets?? not found in necropsies (that i can remember). i us ually don't bother with those especially on older fuzzies. they were found during abdominal surgeries/exploratory surgeries for other things (i.e., blockages) revealed adrenal tumors during those surgeries. the ferrets were not showing any outward signs. one had mild ibd issues, but that's it.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 11:36:35 GMT -5
I sold ferret kits starting 1989 until 2004. I stopped selling after the litter in 2004 and, with the exception of a litter that I gave as a gift to a dear friend in 2005, any ferrets that are born here these days (very few) stays here
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 11:42:03 GMT -5
revealed adrenal tumors during those surgeries. the ferrets were not showing any outward signs. one had mild ibd issues, but that's it. Okay, so they were asymptomatic at the time of discovery, but do you think those would eventually have resulted in some type of symptom? Assuming the ferrets lived out a normal life span, say 7-8 years and up?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 11:46:42 GMT -5
My point is that if ferrets live a full life span and does not suffer any consequences or symptoms from having adrenal tumours, than it's hard to say that adrenal disease would be much of an issue. For those ferrets I understand that some ferrets suffer greatly. Another interesting thing in this context would be if there are different degrees (of genetic origin) which could explain why some ferrets are affected greatly and/or earlier while others with the disease are not.
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 3, 2011 12:20:01 GMT -5
Yes I think that they would have eventually caused symptoms. I suppose they all do eventually. It is a tumor after all and towards the end it becomes malignant and unmanageable with medications. sometimes the symptoms are not severe. they are mild and the ferrets can live with it. but i have had a few that had to be put to sleep because the disease advanced so far that it just really made their quality of life horrible. muscle wasting, weakness, lethargy, loss of appetite, ulcers, ibd, the ferrets become a mess and really stressed out. its not a fun gig. and yes, i always wonder what is it about THIS ferret that had tumors on both sides, the tumors were large and yet, his symptoms were very mild during his life and another ferret had only small tumor on one side and had horrible symptoms and had to be put to sleep. it is all very odd.
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Post by crazylady on May 3, 2011 14:14:15 GMT -5
Hi I thankfully ( she says touching wood and crossing fingers ) have not experienced adreanal or insulinoma in the 43 years I have bred and owned ferrets ( I don't believe my father or grandfather saw anything of this type of illness its not recorded in there extensive records and they go back over 100 years at the moment I have 94 fuzzies ( I breed only for myself and to keep lines alive I work and used to show them ) ages range from one year to 14 years I believe it is not only a genetic thing ( how can it be ? I too have to introduce carefully selected new blood at times ) I believe it is a mixture of diet genetics and lighting along with early fixing ( how does the gland know when to turn off ?) if lighting is at spring levels constantly from artificial lighting ? isn't this how farm ferrets produce litter after litter spring summer and winter ? many people think because a ferret is fixed its not sexually active no externally its not but internally it is the gland never shuts down for the fall as it would in a whole ferret once there was more darkness hours than daylight hours because it is fooled into thinking it spring all year round wont this make the adrenal glands over productive and cause huge hormonal surges in the body ? its kind of like a heart racing non stop eventually that heart gives up and can take no more it just seems strange to me that in the old days when ferrets were kept out doors fed natural prey and left intact ( yes most were bred before the introduction of vas hobs and the jill jab ) these diseases were never heard of but once they were kept as pets brought indoors fixed and fed kibbles ( or raised as kits on kibbles ) lots of illnesses suddenly appeared please don't think I am criticising owners of ferrets who have been subjected to these terrible illnesses I am not I am simply relating what I have have observed over the years and I pray I never have first hand experience of them take care bye for now crazy lady
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 3, 2011 14:41:39 GMT -5
crazy lady I don't think that you are criticizing at all. i think we are at fault for alot of the problems that they have. people who say "i want a ferret but ewww he stinks, can you fix that mr. vet?" and so the vet says "sure, i can snip his sack and remove his anal glands for ya!" and there you go. there is a ferret vet here in broward county that has reported keeping ferrets in the dark for most of the day has caused a remission in adrenal tumors. one of our vets told me flat out "you have to keep these guys in the dark as much as possible--as natural lighting as possible." so, I am trying that keeping the room darker than usual and don't use anything but full spectrum light bulbs in his room during those times that i do need to use unnatural lighting. i think you and marie are both right. I believe that it is a combination of altering + genes and diet. i wish that in the united states we had the option of having intact ferrets. if i could find an intact male i would not have him snipped. they sell intact kittens and dogs, but not ferrets.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 15:07:38 GMT -5
I have a room for my girls - should I keep them in mostly darkness?
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 3, 2011 15:17:45 GMT -5
during the day i wouldn't keep them in total pitch black darkness but i keep the blinds closed. i have dark wood blinds and some light gets in ( i live in florida like you so trying to keep the sun out 100% is impossible). I have thick dark curtains over the bathroom window. so the room is very dim during the day. at night i just keep the lights out in his room as much as possible. obviously, his room is my room so i have to turn the lights on sometimes. the vet told me to not use fluorescent light bulbs. he said to use "full spectrum" bulbs which are actually not so easy to find. but i do manage to find some at home depot sometimes. i never use the big overhead light either. instead, i have a very small lamp that uses a 25 watt light bulb and that is what i turn on when i need to see.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2011 15:29:33 GMT -5
I think that ferrets can and do have a genetic predisposition to develop adrenal disease in case of surgical castration. That's the genetic component. After castration it's quite naturally the photoperiod that is the trigger, and it's part of that system that's turned off with des.
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