Where do you start with a whole prey diet?

[fuzzywozzie]

So in the future I am hoping to get three ferrets. I would like to get them young and from the same place, either litter mates or kits already socialised with each other. I’m just trying to do as much research as possible before getting them but trying to find a good Whole Prey Model Diet is difficult. I have come up with an idea of what I would like to feed them but I don’t know where to start with it. I’m thinking of feeding them;
Monday – Rabbit, young
Tuesday – Small chicken, legs, breast, bones
Wednesday – Rat, adult
Thursday – Beef, minced or chunks
Friday – Mice, adult and chicks
Saturday - Chicken wings
Sunday – Rat, adult
Based on information I have put together I think this would be a suitable diet. I know if a whole prey diet only is fed additional supplements are not necessary but will I need to add a supplement to this diet as they will be having whole prey 4 days a week. If I need a supplement what is a good one – I have heard that Ferreatone is a good one and very yummy. Any other? Or is this the best one.
Back to the diet how do you introduce whole prey to young ferrets? Because with the meat – beef and chicken – I would just start with small chunks and work them up but with whole prey

Would I need to chop it up or leave it whole?
Should I get younger / smaller animals so they get the idea to eat it whole?

The question isn’t about how much because they would get however much they want but how to go about getting them to eat a whole prey diet. I have read a lot about changing an adults diet but can’t find anything on a young kits diet.

How often will they need to be fed when young?

Maybe answers could include how many, how often (per day), how much (grams or oz or animal), and what they are fed on (dry or whole or barf).
I’m trying to build a whole picture and I do realise that every ferret is different. I’m just want to gather as much information as possible before getting them and thought this might be the very best place to get it. Real ferret owners who own real happy ferrets.

[bluemoose]

Ferretone isn't really a dietary supplement as far as nutrients go. It provides oils but also has carcinogens so I choose not to use it. I give my fuzz fish oil, salmon oil, and extra virgin olive oil instead. The fish oils are a great source of omega-3s and contribute to healthy skin and coat. The olive oil is a great natural hairball preventative.

Whole prey is naturally balanced with appropriate amounts of meat, bone, organ, and roughage (fur/feathers, claws, and other indigestibles). Prey model needs to emulate these amounts. 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organs (kidney, spleen, testicle, ect.). Heart is a great source of taurine but counts as muscle meat, not organ.

Many people do start with younger animals like pinkie mice to introduce their ferrets to whole prey. I prefer to just get pre-killed adult mice and rats and start with those. Chances are they won't be interested in it whole at first especially if they were previously on kibble. The next step is to try cutting it in half but again, they most likely won't see it as food. From there it's time to make soup. Blend up the prey with some water and whatever else you'd like to put in (an egg, some oil, ect). Make it nice and soupy the first time. If you're getting young ferrets, all it might take is a taste of soup to hook them. If not, just keep feeding it to them until they're willing to eat it on their own. From there, just make the soup chunkier each time and eventually you should be able to give them whole prey cut in half and then whole prey entirely whole. Young ferrets are usually a breeze to switch so the process might be as fast as a few days.

Keep in mind, you want to aim to eventually feed primarily adult prey. Young animals lack nutrients such as calcium and should only be fed occasionally. My fuzz eat exclusively whole prey and I feed adult mice, rats, quail, rabbit, and guinea pig. Day old chicks are an occasional treat.

Kits need to be fed fairly often. Assuming you will be getting 2-3 month old kits, they will need to eat at least three times a day. If possible, it's ideal to have food available at all times. Whole prey is excellent for this because it is covered in fur/feathers so it has reduce air exposure and stays good for quite a while. Soup will go bad faster so it should be replaced often.

[fuzzywozzie]

Thank you for your answers it's given me a few more pointers in the right direction.

[fuzzywozzie]

I have found a supplier of whole prey and they offer two types of Quail - normal and vitamin E enriched. They are being sold for raptors and other birds of prey. Would buying vitamin E quail be better or worst for ferrets?

[Sherry]

I personally woudn't bother with the "enriched" version. Who knows what else they put in there along with it I'm thinking a brining solution or something along that line to help carry the vit e.

[Deleted]

Where to start with a whole prey diet?

Usually in the bathroom. The tile or tub makes clean up easy. If offering live prey the bathroom usually will contain the prey until the feret learns proper capture and dispatch techniques.

With that said starting kits on a whole prey diet has, for me, always been quite easy. Seems kits still retain more instinctive responses to what is a proper diet. They just lack the skills and coordination to dispatch. No biggie really, they learn fast as long as the prey items offered don't outmatch the young ferret. IOW don't offer an adult live mouse to a new predator. Instead start with pinlies and move up over the course of a few weeks. Within a month's time, if feeding live prey daily, the young ferret should be easily dispatching hopper and young mice; adult mice by the end of 2 months.

If going the prekilled route make sure the prey is at least room temp or warmer. Freezing cold or refrigerated will turn them off. With prekilled I usually start with hoppers or young mice then ofer adults later.

The more prey varieties the youn ferret is exposed to the better eaters they become! Don't forget to offer insects, invertebrates & small fish to their diet. If you do sushi, pocket a few pieces and trat your ferrets!

I also encourage anyone offering whole prey or raw to keep feeding them freeze dried meaty items as well a dried items - this will help tide them over during emergencies or extra long work shifts or even substitute caretakers that are squeamish about raw & prey diets.

Also keep open access to an unsalted lard lick. They'll need the extra fats. Most farm raised prekilled rodents are too lean.

Something I do for my kids when my budget prevents a god supply of prey is that I pulverize cuttlefish "bone" and dust their raw offerings with this calcium dust. Pulverized egg shells will also offer them more calcium.

I second the decision to avoid manufactured Ferretone. Mix your own oil as suggested. Offer unsalted butter too as a treat. Raw eggs occsssionally should round out your feeding program.

Above all don't get locked into a rigid program. Be adventurous!

Cheers,
Kim

[fuzzywozzie]

Thanks Kim, Just a few little questions -
1, what sort of small fish are suitable or should be avoided
2, Insects and invertebrates - I know about mealworms and crickets but what else would be suitable?
3 Cuttlefish - is that the stuff they sell for birds?

The "menu" at the top was just a guide trying to estimate how much to order, or breed. I've got to order quail, rabbit and chicks (treat time). And i plan to breed rats mainly (which will be gased and frozen by me) and some mice. I want the mice for extra stimulation really, so they can act out natural behaviours and i think mice are the only rodent small enough to not be able to put up much of a fight compaired to a grown hamster or gerbil (don't want the ferrets getting badly bitten) And maybe even breed guinea pigs as something else, I heard ferrets love guinea pig when they can get it. The pigs would be pets but the babies once grown would be dinner. I really want to give the little fuzz-butts as much variety as possible.
PS I read the bit about hamsters and "wet-tail" but if they (the ferrets) get hamster it will of the frozen variety

[Deleted]

When you say gassed, do you mean CO2?

[fuzzywozzie]

Yes, from what I have found out CO2 is usually used. Or should some thing else be used? I'm always open to new ideas and more information!

I know CO2 stings the eyes but the animal should be knocked out within 30 seconds (asleep) and dead within 3 minutes. If it is done right. I've watched vids on line and seen the poor animals still fighting to breathe 8 minutes later, i mean really fighting, very aware and even moving around still, but I’ve also seen a small scale set up using CO2 canisters (12gm or 16gm) and a regulator where the rats were dead within 3 minutes. I think the worst thing that can happen is they wake up with a headache.

Other people bash them over the head but I don't feel comfortable doing this in case it goes wrong or I miss or don't do it hard enough.

[Deleted]

I've read cervical dislocation is the most humane way to kill larger prey. I don't raise prey, so hopefully someone else will pop in to offer more advice/methods for it.

[whipple]

I agree with cervical dislocation. I'm sure you can do it with guinea pig. As far as mice, I would let the ferrets kill them. Anything bigger, well I'm not breeding them so I don't worry about it. I'm not setting up canisters or bashing heads or whatever.
Anyhow, there is (or was) a great video on youtube of a lady who made a contraption to help with rabbits. She had a bad back or something and not enough strength to do it on her own. Anyhow, I think that would be great for guinea pigs too, quick and they can slip out of it.

[fuzzywozzie]

I'll look in to it! I want the process to be as quick and painless as possible. Even if they are food it doesn't mean they have to suffer.
The guinea pigs will not be available very often as you can only breed them twice a year to keep them healthy. It will mainly be rats that i will have to cull, I was originally thinking about having a mice breeding set up but after more thinking i decided to do rats instead, more of a meal. I think i will still have some mice breeding, but just a couple of tanks.

[fuzzywozzie]

Ha ha more research!

Approved Animal Euthanasia Methods for Rodents
Carbon dioxide inhalation can be suitable for all species, provided acceptable equipment is used. Practically, its use is limited to rodents and other mammals weighing less than about 500 grams. Compressed CO2 from cylinders is the only acceptable source. Dry ice is no longer permitted as a CO2 source.

Chamber method - This method employs a top-opening chamber into which the animal(s) are introduced . After the animal(s) are placed in the chamber, a slow flow of CO2 is intiated for a few minutes to slowly establish a high concentration at the bottom of the chamber. It is an unacceptable practice to pre-charge the chamber with CO2 prior to placing the animals in the chamber.

After breathing has stopped and the animal(s) are unconscious, euthanasia may be completed by any of the following procedures:

- continued exposure to CO2 for 15-30 minutes after breathing has stopped (newborn of most species are more resistant than adults to CO2 and will require exposure times 2-3 times as long to assure death.);
- exsanguination;
- cervical dislocation;
- thoracotomy
- administration of inject able anaesthetic or euthanasia preparation.

Exsanguination is used as a method of slaughter where, before the incision is made, the animal, depending on species, is rendered insensible to pain by various methods, including captive bolt, electricity or chemical. Without prior sedation, stunning or anaesthetic, this method of slaughter causes a high degree of anxiety and should not be used alone. - I don’t think I’ll be using this option.

Thoracotomy is an incision into the pleural space of the chest. – Or this one

Any thing inject able is going to taint the meat and may cause problems with the ferret.

So that leaves cervical dislocation or CO2 for up to 30 minutes.

Cervical dislocation, dislocation of the neck, is a simple and humane method of killing mice and small rats (<125 gms). Although not required, the use of sedation or anesthesia prior to euthanasia is encouraged. If sedation or anesthesia prior to cervical dislocation is not used the investigator must provide scientific justification for its exclusion. In the case of mice and small rats, the animal is held by its tail and placed on a surface that it can grip, then it will stretch itself out so that a pencil or similar object can be placed firmly across the back of the neck. A sharp pull on the base of the tail will then dislocate the neck.

The key to using CO2 humanely is its concentration. The normal concentration of CO2 in the air is only 0.038%. According to the 2000 Report of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia, breathing concentrations of 7.5% increases the pain threshold, and concentrations of 30-40% cause anesthesia (unconsciousness) within 1-2 minutes. However, concentrations of 50% or higher irritate the eyes and respiratory tract and cause pain. Your goal is to create a concentration of 30-40% CO2 and hold it there until the rat is unconscious.

This site also states cervical dislocation should not be used on an aware animal they should be unconscious or it isn’t considered humane.

Referenced from
research.uiowa.edu/animal/?get=euthanasia#Carbon dioxide

[whipple]

I agree that with smaller critters, such as rats and mice, CO2 would be best. But how do you know that concentration is correct?

I would use cervical dislocation with animals as small as a guinea pig. They use this method for prekilling food for zoo animals. The handlers are trained to do it correctly, and if you ask me, it wouldn't really matter whether they're conscious or not.

[fuzzywozzie]

I suppose i wouldn't know what the concentration is but if i do use the CO2 method then i would use a regulator to control the speed of the gas entering the "chamber" rather than just filling it as quickly as possible. It might be a bit of trial and error (hopefully not to much error) But i am seriously considerating the cervical dislocation for the guinea pigs and the rats. I'll have to get some help to start with as i want to be able to do it right