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Post by katt on Feb 13, 2017 5:09:15 GMT -5
That's a pretty great selection so far! Awesome variety. What's missing is bone. Some ferrets can eat oxtail, for some it's too big. If they can eat it it counts, if not it doesn't. You def want to search for some otherngood edible bones besides just chicken. Some common bony meats include turkey, duck, rabbit, quail, frog, etc. Also the more different foods you introduce to them now while they are so young and willing to eat anything in their bowl - the easier life will be in the long run. Lol There's no reason you can't package your meals right now as if you have a meal plan. I personally prefer putting meals into ziplock bags bc they smoosh flat and take up far less space than containers. Containers work great too though if you have the space. Just keep the different types of meat (heart, organ, muscle/bone) separate. If you haven't already, check out our menu guideline here: holisticferretforum.com/natural-diet/raw-diet-the-meat-of-the-site/basic-frankenprey-menu/Next homework: - Try feeding them kidney the same way you did with heart (it they like it AWESOME, if not no biggie we just have a little convincing to do) - Later, try the same with brain (don't give a whole meal of brain as it is very rich - but super nutritious) - Read the menu guideline page - Keep searching for bones - Let me know how the organs go, and if you have any Q's on the menu The biggest "to-do" item you have ahead is getting them to eat organs. Their organs need to be at least half liver, so they need to accept liver as well as the kidney and brains. If they don't right away we have plenty of tricks. As soon as they accept organs they will be eating all of the necessary parts of the diet and you'll just need to work on increasing variety (esp bones) which you're off to a great start with, and balancing their menu. You're off to an incredible start. And btw - congrats on removing the kibble. Your ferrets are now officially kibble-free carnivores.
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Post by katt on Feb 13, 2017 5:19:04 GMT -5
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Post by LindaM on Feb 13, 2017 5:36:15 GMT -5
katt I actually use little rectangular/square containers filled entirely as they are 2oz (well actually 2.3oz, so tiny bit wasted there) and 4oz respectively, as compared to half-filled or round containers which definitely waste lots of space, especially if you are limited to say a fridge's freezer. And these then get placed into 2 big, rectangular plastic containers to make it easier to store, they fit inside in little stacked rows just perfectly, bottom to top. I used to do ziploc bags for all of it, but they kept getting disorganized and just falling out all over the place, irritating the heck out of me (I'm rather OCD), and for the longest time I could only find Quart sized bags, which were way too big for what I was doing, the pint sizes were better, but not quite right either. So only bone-in gets bagged now, and also popped into a bigger container to keep organized.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 7:55:50 GMT -5
It's getting kind of exciting. Ok, so they had chicken wing for dinner tonight. I crushed it quite a bit and left some bigger pieces. Now that I'm not supplementing kibble, I really want to make sure they eat enough. If they manage to polish off most of this, I'll leave the pieces a bit bigger next time. They ate all their heart/mince combo for lunch, so I put in about 60g (2oz) wings. I'll add more before I go to bed if it looks low. They're having wings for breakfast too. I'll offer kidney tomorrow afternoon/ evening. So did you mean give a whole kidney meal? I have 60g (2oz) set aside for them. I cut it into somewhere between bit size and small chunks. Thanks re the advice on freezing. I started this evening but I've barely scratched the surface!. So much fuzz food! Definitely more bones required. I haven't found much yet, but I'm not nearly done checking everywhere yet. My friend had a great idea about a market we go to, so hopefully we can get there soon. I'll do the reading tomorrow
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 7:57:09 GMT -5
Oh and I ordered them a new cage this afternoon! I have all sorts of plans, including feeding dens) for when that arrives.
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Post by katt on Feb 13, 2017 13:32:13 GMT -5
If they will take a whole meal of kidneys sure. The biggie is to get them to accept its taste without being masked by other meats. As we work towards getting them on a balanced menu, they will need 1.5 meals of organ (1/2 liver, 1/2 other - kidney and brain are fantastic), and 1.5 meals of heart. Let me know when you've read the stuff on balancing their menu, and if you have any Q's about it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 22:27:31 GMT -5
Hi! Sorry I'm late to the party I've been gone on a business trip and had horrible internet connection since Thursday so glad it sounds like everything is going well for you! Now that I'm home I'm going to actually sit down and read through your thread and see where you're at so far. I'm glad my switching thread helped! That's exactly what I did when I was waiting for a mentor too, read through the archives and took the mini quizzes the mentors gave
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 1:49:10 GMT -5
Hi @tessvictoria thanks for coming along. Hope you had a good trip apart from the crappy internet.
So, I'd started to feel a bit like I was cheating and skipping to the end. So far the babies have been easy.
Kidney = not food, or so I'm told.
I had cut into somewhere between bit size and small chunks. Both girls were interested in the plate and sniffed at it, but both said "nope, doesn't seem to be any food here".
I think Opal may have eaten a tiny piece, but I could have missed it in my pick up. Neither took anything directly from the plate. When I picked Opal up and offered pieces, she took a couple and stashed them and *may* have eaten one tiny piece. Charlie wouldn't even stash it. Charlie is generally less pissed off when I try and hand feed, but she wouldn't actually do more than sniff it.
I decided my pieces were far too big and went and cut them way smaller. I put 30g (1oz) away and cut up the other 30g. I added 30g of the thick soup that I still had, to it. It's pretty thick though. I'll be able to buy more soup ingredients when I go out tomorrow.
Now they both sniffed the plate and licked a little, but I still doubt either took any kidney. I offered the spoon to both. Opal doesn't really like that. Charlie licked a tiny bit of soup. I did a gentle scruff and stuff. Charlie was fairly easy to get the food into, but she would just take it in her mouth and then drop it out. One time she carried the food for a couple of seconds and you could tell she was thinking about it, and then dropped it. Opal hated the scruff and stuff and I didn't want to push it and have her associate the food with that.
So now I've put them away with the half and half mix for a while to see what happens. Maybe when things are less interesting and they get hungry, it will be hard to avoid the kidney in the chunky soup. If they don't seem to be eating anything I'll reassess. I also put a tiny bit of their weekly salmon oil on top.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 2:04:46 GMT -5
Oh and I did a clean out of their cage today (hopefully the last big one before the new cage arrives). From the 2 meals they've had of chicken wings (last night and this morning), there was a bunch of tiny little bones left in the cage. Is it normal for them to leave some? It doesn't look like enough for the amount of wings they got, but it does look like a little too much, so I might have the crush them better. I need to keep a closer eye because I'm worried one might be eating more of the actual bone part than the other. I did the reading you set me katt I've seen in some places that the bone meals should be back to back, and on that menu they're pretty much all morning meals except where there's a couple of optional bone or muscle meals. Is it better to spread it out like that or to have a couple one after the other? I've got the bare minimum of 3 proteins as chicken, pork and beef. I've sourced a couple of others but don't want to buy any more until I've introduced those 3. I definitely need to find more variety on the bone in meats, but I'm working on that. I also know where I can get chicken feet to make a pseudo bone in meal. One question I have is, do the organs count when counting different proteins or are they sort of in a class of their own? I have the (currently unpalatable) lamb kidney and brains. Does that bring my protein count up to 4? Or is it really only the bone in and muscle we're counting there and then I also need variety among the organs?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 10:10:41 GMT -5
Organs count as a class of their own, so it won't count as a different protein if the liver comes from a sheep or something unfortunately I wish it did! Having some little left over bone sis normal for ferrets, they'll get better at eating them as time goes on and there will be less and less. It's good to have a bone in after organs especially, since it makes their poops so gross. Have you seen the basic balanced menu file? It gives you an idea where to put what meals. (Sorry I'm still waking up and haven't read through everything yet ) Keep trying the kidney with the soupie, you're on the right track, and keep hand feeding them it. They will eat it eventually! Just have to be more stubborn than your beautiful girls are. Ps have I mentioned I love their names?
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Post by katt on Feb 14, 2017 18:38:59 GMT -5
From the 2 meals they've had of chicken wings (last night and this morning), there was a bunch of tiny little bones left in the cage. Is it normal for them to leave some? It doesn't look like enough for the amount of wings they got, but it does look like a little too much, so I might have the crush them better. I need to keep a closer eye because I'm worried one might be eating more of the actual bone part than the other.Yes, some bone scraps are normal, but they should be eating MOST of the bone. It takes time to build up their jaw and neck muscles (their chewing muscles) and to learn to chew the bones up. When smashing the bones you ideally want them to either be super smashed so it's a crunchy mess, or bigger chunks that force them to chew more - it is best to avoid (or minimize) chunks small enough to be swallowed whole. They need to chew. I've seen in some places that the bone meals should be back to back, and on that menu they're pretty much all morning meals except where there's a couple of optional bone or muscle meals. Is it better to spread it out like that or to have a couple one after the other?It can be organized any which way really as long as the balance is appropriate (1.5 organs meals, 1.5 heart meals, 7-9 bone-in meals), and the different meal types kept separate. We don't advise feeding mixed meals with say heart, organ, muscle, and bone all in one meal to any group of 2 or more ferrets. If you have a single ferret that is a different story, but with multiples you now have the risk of each ferret picking out their favorite parts, and avoiding their less favorite parts. One might Loooove heart and gobble it all up before anyone else gets any - and now one ferrets has too much heart and the others have none. (Side note: you can't "overdo" heart in terms of taurine, but heart is on the richer side and feeding too much can cause loose stools in some ferrets.) One ferret might not be a huge liver fan and might pick around all the liver so he gets none and now the others have too much liver. That said a few things to consider.... - The body can only absorb so much calcium at once - too much at once and the rest just passes right through. If all of your bone-in meals are clustered together you may not be optimizing the absorption of the calcium and other important minerals from the bone, versus spreading it out so they can absorb as much as possible spread out over the week. - Bone (and calcium) is a major contributor to stool consistency. This is actually how you judge bone content - if their stools are too hard, dry, or they are constipated, they likely have too much bone; if stools are too soft, they do not have enough bone. Boneless muscle meal stools tend to be softer due to the lack of bone. Heart meals even MORE so. Organ meals are typically dark, soft, and tarry due to the high blood content of the organs (esp liver). Too many soft stools (esp all in a row) is NOT good and significantly increases their risk of prolapse (which in turn increases risk of irritation, infection, and in serious prolapse even tissue death requiring surgery - though that is rare and usually due to more serious medical problems). With all of that in mind, if you cluster all of your bone-in meals you will potentially run into the issue of 1) hard stools due to too much bone at once, 2) reduced calcium absorption due to too much bone at once (is this enough to be significant to their health? Probably not, but it might. So why risk it?) AND you will almost certainly run into the issue of the other end of the week where you are not feeding bone of having soft stools, and potentially prolapse. ALSO, because organ meals make the stools so soft, it is really in their and your best interest to follow up with a bone-in option as the next meal to firm their stools back up after such a soft-stool meal. Now whether they get bone in the morning or evening doesn't matter Whether you do their organ meals on Tues or Thurs or Sat or Mon doesn't matter. What matters is that the overall balance is correct, and that they have a good variety of different proteins. I've got the bare minimum of 3 proteins as chicken, pork and beef. I've sourced a couple of others but don't want to buy any more until I've introduced those 3. I definitely need to find more variety on the bone in meats, but I'm working on that. I also know where I can get chicken feet to make a pseudo bone in meal. That's fine, it is usually easier to intro one protein at a time anyways - one foot in front of the other. BUT once they accept a protein, you will want to work it into the rotation. Do keep in mind as you go though that 3 is the bare minimum - the more the better. One way to increase your proteins without straining the budget too much is to add in the spendier meats on an occasional basis. After Christmas, ducks often go on sale - so maybe you buy a whole duck or two and stretch it out over the course of the year, or several months. Maybe every Easter and Halloween they get a meal of Pheasant. Maybe one day you just happen to stumble across unicorn meat and gee that looks fun, so I'll give it a shot as a special treat today. Etc etc. Definitely you want as much variety in their weekly rotation as you can get - but you can boost their variety even more from there by sprinkling other meats in here and there. Also, the more variety you get them used to now the better - if they become accustomed to wide variety and constant change as kits, it will make your job muuuch easier in the future. With very rare exception, my boys (started on raw at 8 weeks and fed a wide variety early on) will eat just about anything I put in their food dish - even if it's something they have never seen before. Koda was about 5 I think and Kenai 4 when I first gave them frog - TOTALLY different from any meat he had ever eaten before. I tossed it in their dish and they inhaled it. Koda is 7 now and just a few weeks ago I gave him octopus and squid for the first time ever - again, very different taste and texture from other meats he normally gets, and a protein he has never tasted before - he snarfed it down and begged for more. Now don't get me wrong - feeding variety young doesn't mean you are guaranteed to not have a pick ferret - they ARE still ferrrets after all. :rofl: But it DOES make it a lot easier. One question I have is, do the organs count when counting different proteins or are they sort of in a class of their own? I have the (currently unpalatable) lamb kidney and brains. Does that bring my protein count up to 4? Or is it really only the bone in and muscle we're counting there and then I also need variety among the organs?Tess already answered this but I will second her reply - yes, organ is in its own category. The key is to have variety of muscle, and in bone bc they need so many bone meals that it unbalances their menu quickly if they only have one bone source. THAT SAID - it is best to ALSO have a variety of proteins for organs and hearts if possible. If all you can get is chicken liver, well that is better than nothing and it will work. But then what happens if you get a ferret with a chicken sensitivity? Also, while the nutrition profile of liver will be extremely similar between species, there WILL be minor differences and feeding variety just optimizes their nutrient intake.
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Post by katt on Feb 14, 2017 18:47:54 GMT -5
So, I'd started to feel a bit like I was cheating and skipping to the end. So far the babies have been easy.It's not cheating. It's doing it the RIGHT/BEST way. The younger they are started on raw the better - AND the easier. They SHOULD be eating whole prey as babies. We only go the long route on older ferrets because they have imprinted on kibble and now we HAVE to do it the long way. Kidney = not food, or so I'm told.hahaha No worries - they will get there. I have a loooooong list of tricks up my sleeve. Hiding the kidney bits in some soup and finger feeding the chunks is a good method. I would keep working on that for a few more days - it can take some time and convincing. Keep popping little pieces into their mouth during meal times - without it becoming a big fight of course. You can also try blending up some brain (fatty = yummy) and offering them that. Don't make a ton in case they don't like it. Have you picked up more liver yet? We also need to get them eating that as well. Even more so than the kidney and brain really.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 0:40:25 GMT -5
I thought the organs were probably separate, but I just wanted to clarify, so thank you to you both for answering that. That's some really good advice about increasing the number of proteins. I've found a few, but some are definitely more expensive than others, so even feeding them once in a while will be worth it. I found a frozen whole duck at the supermarket the other day. I didn't buy it yet, but it looked plain with no additives, so that's a possibility if I don't find any others. Now that I have some things to introduce for now, I'm starting to scope out prices a bit before I buy more. Understood on the bone chunks. Now I know they're definitely eating at least some bone, I'll start cutting into pieces rather than crushing and see how that goes. I'll just keep an eye on the amount of leftover pieces. Ithanks for clearing up the menu. I suspect what I read about feeing bone in meals near each other was about making sure picky ferrets don't just wait until the next meal. What you've said makes perfect sense. So on that subject, poops. Firstly it's hard to judge this because there is already so much less! Nothing I have seen concerned me. They definitely look different to kibble poos. Some have been kinda runny or goopy, but from what I've read, that's all normal. None looked like diarrhoea or really hard. Kidney: I left that plate with the small pieces in chunky soup in their cage yesterday afternoon. When I checked later, there was definitely a lot of kidney left on the plate and a tiny bit of soup. Now the thing is that there was about 60g total on the plate and what I pulled out was 22g,so some had gone somewhere. There could be a bit in their tunnel, but none stashed elsewhere, so yay My suspicians are that it's possible only one ate it. I wouldn't be surprised if Opal did. She was taking a couple of pieces from me and stashing them, so she may have decided it was food while it was in the cage. I wouldn't be surprised to find out Charlie didn't touch it. I took the leftovers as they'd been in theee long enough,and gave the rest of the soup over night. This morning I gave chicken thigh chunks for the day. They were bigger chunks than they'd had so far, so my hope is they chewed them. I left about 150g (about 5oz) for the day because I was going to be a bit longer than usual. We'll see what's left when I get home. I'll try hand feeding some kidney again this evening and see what happens. And shopping! I now have 1kg hearts, 1kg liver, 1kg chicken feet and 500g giblets (I think 1kg is a bit more than 2lbs), so that's plenty to go on with! I've bought so much meat this week, but it should last some time.
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Post by katt on Feb 15, 2017 21:00:23 GMT -5
Try blending some kidney and brain in roughly equal portions (if anything do more kidney than brain, brain is rich). See if they like that any better.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 21:29:08 GMT -5
All the chicken chunks were gone yesterday, so that was a success. Tried offering tiny kidney pieces again but no takers. Both still say not food. I tried adding some salmon oil. I'm still teaching opal that's food, so it didn't help her. Charlie happily licked it off the kidney.. I gave chicken wings over night and put a bit of the kidney in the cage too because I figured it couldn't hurt. No takers on that unsurprisingly. I'll try the brain/kidney blend.
I decided to intro a new protein this morning. I cut up tiny slivers of the pork belly. Both sniffed the plate and walked away. I offered tiny pieces by hand. Opal said "oh food! You should have told me". No problem with her taking it. I think the main reason she didn't want much was because playing was more interesting. She definitely ate more of the mince when I used to offer it, so it's possible Charlie never ate the pork. When I offered Charlie some by hand she said it's definitely not food.
I decided to make some more soup. I used: 2oz pork belly 6oz chicken thigh 1oz heart 1oz liver 1/2 tsp egg shell powder
So really similar to what they already had, but with a slight pork addition..
I served that with slivers in it. I could get Charlie to take a little, but no slivers with it. Ran out of time. I'll be more persistent later. I was confident enough that she'd eat the soup part at least and left them with that. I also put a little bowl with a few slivers in case opal wanted to eat some.
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