Opal and Charlotte's unofficial switching thread

[Deleted]

I applied for a mentor earlier today and thought in the meantime I would start an unofficial thread. I was going to do it earlier but my internet decided to completely die and refuse to open anything. Reception seems to be better now thankfully.

So I guess I'll start by putting some of the info I put in the application.

I have 2 girls, Opal and Charlotte (charlie). Opal is an albino (as am I, incidentally), and Charlie is sable I think. I'll try and get some photos taken and uploaded over the next couple of days. I've had the girls for about 3 weeks now and was told they were born in October, which would make them around 3 1/2 - 4ish months old.

I bought a new scale today and weighed the girls this evening (and wasn't that fun?). Getting them to sit still for more than a split second takes skill. I tried them early in the evening and decided they needed to play a bit first. Salmon oil worked somewhat with Charlie, but she was just too excited. Opal doesn't really like it, so no luck there. About 2 1/2 hours later when they were ever so mildly calmer (but still going strong), I tried again. This time the salmon oil was enough to keep Charlie still long enough to take an accurate reading. Salmon oil doesn't work with Opal, and I was at a loss as to what to do. Then I remembered there was raw egg left in the fridge from their breakfast and that, she *does* like. So now I have an accurate reading for both, and one ferret with egg all over her feet

Current weights:
Charlotte: 675g
Opal: 722g
(I don't really understand how pounds work. When I tried to plug the first one into a converter, one bit said 1.48812lbs. Another said 1lb, 7.81ounces. They seem like 2 very different numbers to me.)

My plan is to transition them over to a full frankenprey diet. They are currently eating Wellness CORE original and kitten. This was the best I could find in Australia and frankly there's very little to choose from.

What they've had so far:
Since I brought them home I've been giving them some sort of meat in the morning. They've had ground beef and pork to mixed results. I think Opal likes it but I think Charlie only eats a little. Now that this will be more than a treat I will be starting to pay much closer attention to who eats what.
I've given them whole chicken wings which they did chew on, but I think they had trouble with the big bones. When I cut up into segments, they definitely ate some and I think the wing tips were claimed by Opal. I've recently read about how to crush them, I made the pieces much smaller the other day. Both girls were into it and I could hear crunching from both directions (because of course the food can't stay on the plate). I took the leftovers and later found Charlie crunching away on a piece. She must have stashed it in the tunnel, because I cleared everywhere else. I'm just glad she likes it.
I gave a raw egg earlier on, which I think they both enjoyed. I've since learned to split that between more meals though. This morning I gave half a raw egg between 2, with some ground chicken mince mixed in. I think it was probably breast, but I'll get thigh from now on. Both girls enjoyed that. When I came home a couple of hours later, the bowl was clean. I'm not sure of the exact amount, but I will weigh everything starting tomorrow.

Tonight I mixed up a batch of fairly thick soup for them. Probably pudding consistency. If they're not interested , I'll add more water, but I hope as they're young, they'll try it this way.

Soup has:
30g (1oz) Chicken heart
30g (1oz) Chicken liver
225g (8oz) Chicken thigh and minced breast mix (almost all thigh with a tiny bit of the mince to make up the weight because the other thigh I had would have been a big chunk to defrost).
1/2 tsp egg shell powder

I have set aside 60g (2oz) for them, for the morning, with plenty more if they eat all that. If they want to eat it, should I just give them as much of that as they want for the day, or keep it small this first time and give back the kibble a couple of hours after they finish the portion? I don't want to upset their tummies with too much at once, but they have been having some other bits of meat too.

My hope is that I'll be able to add slivers really quickly, judging by their age and the other stuff they've tried. I wanted to introduce the soup like this first because they haven't had any organs yet and also so that I have them used to it, if I need it to help introduce a difficult protein later.

Oh and one last thing while my post is already massive. I've read a tonne on here by so many different people that I could never name them all. One thing I was interested in was reading a completed switch. I wanted to thank @tessvictoria @morgan2247 and katt . Tessvictoria, I read through your thread as it was at the top. Reading how your transition went, really helped me to understand how it might go, and I learned loads. Thank you

[katt]

I'm glad that reading this though the thread wasn't helpful! We always recommend people read through completed switches but I'm never sure how many actually do. RE pounds and ounces - 1 pound is 16 oz. When you express something in lbs you can either do 1.5lb OR 1lb 8oz (since 0.5 lb is 8oz). It's like if you have $1.50 you can say "I have a buck and a half" or you can say "I have one dollar and 50 cents."

[Deleted]

Thanks Katt, that really helped a lot. I'm just too used to metric where everything is a part of 100.

Reading definitely helped. Not sure if I'll get through many more as I'm a pretty slow reader and 38 pages took a while, but it was worth it.

So I've given them their soupie this morning. I decided to do it in the bathroom as it's a smaller space where I can watch them and get them back on task. The downside is it's pretty exciting for them today because they haven't been in here much. My hope is over the next couple of days it will become pretty boring.

So reactions. Opal was straight into it when I showed her, but had maybe a few licks and wandered away. Charlie sniffed at it and wasn't too interested. Charlie has come back a few times for a tiny bit and wasn't real keen on spoon feeding. She's got important ferret things to do.
I picked Charlie up a few times and spoon fed her. She licked a little off the spoon and was interested, but of course she has a lot of things to do too.
Just when I thought she was hardly going to eat any, she found the plate again on her own and dug in! She hasn't had nearly enough yet either, but I'm pretty confident if I put it in their cage with them, they both know it's food. Yay!

I got a photo of Charlie from above, but not Opal yet. I'll try and get it uploaded today.

[katt]

Kits are delightfully easy to switch. It is definitely a good idea to get them used to soup because if heavens forbid they ever get sick, the last thing you want is to be fighting a sick ferret to convince them soup is edible. It can also be a great tool for introducing new proteins - soup "gravy." That said, as they have already demonstrated they will eat various forms of raw meat, you shouldn't *need* soup for the switch really.

For heart and liver, I'd try just introducing it to them straight. Heart is usually fairly easy as it's not as strong tasting as liver. Liver can take a bit more convincing. But since they are both babies they will take to stuff much easier and faster than an adult who has already imprinted on kibble.

You have said they will willingly eat chicken wings, ground meat, and raw eggs - correct? Can you give us a list of everything (raw) they have eaten so far?

[Deleted]

Thanks Katt. I have been wondering though, how long are they considered babies? I definitely wanted to switch them, but part of the reason I'm in a hurry is I didn't want to miss this great window.

Foods so far:
Raw egg - they love it
Ground beef and pork - they definitely ate some, but not sure how much Charlie ate. Also I didn't know the bowl of hot water trick yet, so some got cooked around the edges defrosting
Chicken wing - pretty successful when somewhat crushed
Ground chicken breast - all got eaten with egg.
Soup

I think that's all. I also offered boiled chicken a couple of weeks ago as a treat, but no real interest and no good for them anyway.

Meanwhile, I got them both to eat a bit more. They probably had a teaspoon or 2 each. Then I learned the hard way not to carry the plate and a ferret at the same time. Smashed crockery and soupie all over my kitchen floor. I got them out another 60g (2oz) and left that in the cage with them. I'll see how that's looking in a couple of hours.

Oh and soup ended up pretty thick with some chunky bits. I was in a hurry last night, so the ingredients were still a tiny bit frozen. I also didn't want to run the food processor too long because I thought my mum, who lives upstairs, might have gone to bed.

[Deleted]

I must say I'm loving having babies. Soup all gone. There was a little left when I came back about 2 hours later. When I came back a couple of hours after that, the bowl was clean. I've given them some kibble back purely because I don't want to run out of soup before I can get more ingredients. I have enough for another batch and this time I'll buy a lot more when I get to the shop. I'll be able to get some Wednesday at the latest. Once I've been shopping, it looks like I can take out the kibble!

After spending time setting up a new photobucket account because apparently I can't get into my old one, here is Charlie:


Hopefully I can get Opal to stay still long enough for a decent photo tonight.

[LindaM]

Yay! Congrats! They and you are doing amazing. Aren't babies just the best to switch? So easy and smooth most of the time.. it's the adults who have passed the imprinting stage that make you rip your hair out, lol.

I tend to get some of the bigger meat packages, sometimes they simply end up cheaper in the long run too, even back when I did soup when switching mine. I kept the meat frozen and just thawed before I made soup. I tried not to making too big batches of soup at a time as mine didn't really like the thawed frozen soup as much as the fresh soup, change in texture I guess, I had to mix it again well with a spoon as the water usually separated some. But if yours have no trouble with that, then make some extra soup and freeze in containers, then simply thaw before giving. On hot summer days, they can even have a frozen cube of soup kinda like a meat popsicle.

Since yours are still kits, you need to make sure they always have food available to them, it's just the adults that can have an AM and PM mealtime. Kits eat a LOT more than adults, and more often. So when you take their kibble away, make sure they always have some soup they can eat. Or some meat that they eat since you said they've eaten ground meats and crushed wings.

[Deleted]

Thanks LindaM I'm so pleased with them.

I will definitely start getting bigger packages. I only got a little heart and liver the other day because I wasn't sure what I was doing yet. I also only had a little cash on me. Now that I have a better idea, I'll grab a lot more. They're eating pretty much everything defrosted at the moment, because my fridge has taken to freezing everything in the extreme heat we've been having.

I'm only taking the food away for long enough at a time to switch between raw and kibble and vice versa. I don't want to upset their tummies. As soon as they're off the kibble I'll make sure to feed enough so that they don't run out.

Also am I the only one who finds "kinda like a meat popsicle" kinda gross. I know it's good for them, but the image in my head is different.

[LindaM]

If you can get to an Asian marketplace or Asian grocery store, I'd give that a shot, you can usually get some great variety of meats for ferrets, at much cheaper prices. I just bought another package of chicken hearts tonight, paid $2.50 for 2lbs of just hearts. Also ended up picking up some quail for my ferrets, I'm hoping they're gonna take well to it, as they've not had quail before. I'm also running low on rabbit, so I'll probably pick some of that up next time, they sell skinned whole rabbit at $3.99/lb, making it cheaper than some online places too.

Yup, you're doing perfect!

[katt]

I have been wondering though, how long are they considered babies?
They can start to imprint on kibble at about 6-9 months, usually they are fairly imprinted by 9-12mo. Maturity wise an intact ferret comes into heat their first year - I think usually about 6mo. Heather could give more detailed info there if you are curious, she's the pro.


Foods so far:
Raw egg - they love it
Ground beef and pork - they definitely ate some, but not sure how much Charlie ate. Also I didn't know the bowl of hot water trick yet, so some got cooked around the edges defrosting
Chicken wing - pretty successful when somewhat crushed
Ground chicken breast - all got eaten with egg.
Soup

That's a great start!! My recommendation - ditch the kibble. No, their diet won't be remotely balanced yet on that list, but that is what we will work on. Don't give the kibble back - an unabalanced diet SHORT term won't hurt - we will work on getting it balanced. In the meanwhile - remove the garbage-in-a-bag. Congrats!

Have you tried offering them plain heart yet? I would try that as soon as you can. It isn't as strong tasting as beef so hopefully they will take right to it - esp chicken hearts. If they won't take a whole heart, cut one into pieces and plop some pieces in their mouths, set them down, and repeat until they start to nom on the pieces. If they will take heart you'll be halfway there. Then you'll just need to work on organs and variety.


I think that's all. I also offered boiled chicken a couple of weeks ago as a treat, but no real interest and no good for them anyway.

Meh, like you said, not much good for them really - though not bad as a treat. Certainly FAR better than some other treats.

Meanwhile, I got them both to eat a bit more. They probably had a teaspoon or 2 each. Then I learned the hard way not to carry the plate and a ferret at the same time. Smashed crockery and soupie all over my kitchen floor. I got them out another 60g (2oz) and left that in the cage with them. I'll see how that's looking in a couple of hours.

lol Careful! Definitely try to get them to eat more soup - if nothing else so they recognize it. I would offer the other meats you have given on other days though. You will want to add bonemeal or eggshell to the ground meats though at least or their poops will be a nightmare (also calcium deficiency is very bad esp in young, developing animals). It's 1/2-3/4 tsp per 10oz of meat.

Oh and soup ended up pretty thick with some chunky bits. I was in a hurry last night, so the ingredients were still a tiny bit frozen. I also didn't want to run the food processor too long because I thought my mum, who lives upstairs, might have gone to bed.

Nothing wrong with that. They are eating meat and chomping on bones - they do not NEED soup at all. It's more a matter of getting them to accept the soup at some point along the way so they know it's food in case they get sick.

What meats do you have on hand now? What do you have local access to?

[katt]

Your Homework:
- introduce hearts and let me know how it goes
- remove kibble
- give us a list of meats you have access to (Asian/Ethnic markets are your BEST FRIEND)

[Heather]

LOL....I don't know about pro but a ferret becomes sexually mature around 6 to 9 months depending on birthdate and husbandry. A ferret becomes physically mature around 18 months to 2 yrs depending on lines
ciao

[Deleted]

Thank you all for being so helpful and answering my questions. That's really interesting about when they mature. It sounds like I have heaps of time to keep introducing new foods.

So, homework time. Gave them soup this morning because I didn't have time to defrost heart. Took the locking crock off the side of the cage that held kibble. That can be an extra water bowl when I get a bigger cage. No more kibble!

After they ate the 60g (2oz) yesterday morning, this morning I upped that to 90g (3oz) soup. When I came back about 4 hours later, that was all gone. I'll give even more before I leave tomorrow.
I defrosted what I had left of the chicken hearts, which unfortunately was only about 30g (1oz). I cut each into 4 or 5 pieces and offered that in the bathroom again so I could keep an eye on it. Both ate some!!! Opal dug straight in and ate a piece. Charlotte had to be shown, but the ate some. Both girls grabbed some to eat elsewhere. Opal went under a shelf. Charlie aimed for there, but it was occupied, so she went to the litter box *sigh*. I kept showing them. Some got eaten, and plenty stashed. By the time I put them back, it was all stashed. I collected what was left and added about 30g chicken breast mince and gave them that before going out. We'll see what's left when I get home.
I have chicken wings defrosting for tonight.

As for what I can get, I'm still checking out options and I'll definitely look for an Asian market. I'm also not real familiar with cuts of meat. I don't eat any red meat, so shopping for it is all new.

Today I bought:
Gravy beef (looked like it had some fat and wasn't as expensive as some)
Pork belly rashers (again, not really sure what sort of pork I should be buying)
Chicken thighs
Chicken wings
Chicken necks
Lamb kidneys
Lamb brain

I will buy more chicken heart on Wednesday. I asked one butcher if they had heart. They said no but they could order. I decided to wait until I check more places first.

I also saw kangaroo steak or mince, venison steak and various cuts of lamb, pork or beef. Oh and lambs fry, which mum informs me is liver. I can also get various fish, but I'm not sure what type I should search for. Oh and ox tail, can they eat those bones?

Thanks again katt helping me, I really appreciate it.

[Deleted]

Oh and I have absolutely no idea where to start portioning this into the freezer. I'll be easy when I have meal plans, but right now I just have a whole bunch of meat. Any advice appreciated.

And this is Opal:

[LindaM]

Sounds like your babies could do with some feeding dens. Ferrets will often run off with their meat and go to a spot they feel they can safely eat it without being disturbed. Some will try to hide their meat chunks in the litterbox for that very reason too, poop helps to hide the smell of food from others. Since ferrets handle bacteria on food remarkably well, this isn't a problem, but I personally found it yucky and established a feeding den. I used cardboard for a while, until Athena decided she's too fancy for it, and began using the underside of my bedside table.. and now my dresser as her feeding den spots. I bought a big plastic container that I still need to modify and see if she'll use it instead. Loki doesn't usually try to stash his meat a lot.

You can leave the meat out a while when they stash them, more often than not it will air dry into something similar to jerkey, I call it "biltong". In which case it doesn't rot the way raw meat does, but I still clear it out the next morning, throughout the day it gets left alone as Athena especially will usually go back to it multiple times in the day and finish eating all of it. I've only ever found a few rare small pieces of chicken wings remaining by the next morning. Just check their stashes to make sure they are indeed eating the food so you don't need to worry about them not consuming enough of important meals like hearts and such, other than that it should be okay. Though for sanitary sake, you might want to introduce a feeding den where they are allowed to stash food, each ferret needs their own though, they often do not want to share them.

This gives a general idea of how long raw can stay out:
Soups - 6-8 hours
Grinds - 8-12 hours
Chunks - 10-24 hours (Depends on size, larger can last longer)
Bone-in Meats - 12-24 hours (Depends on size again)
Whole Prey - up to 48 hours

Beef bones are generally too heavy for ferrets to consume, so safer to stick to chicken, quail, rabbit, etc. But if you can introduce chicken feet to your ferrets, you can add those with beef chunks to make another bone-in type meal that way, especially if you struggle finding variety for bone-in meals.

As for portioning.. since the average amounts an adult female will eat is around 2-4oz, and adult males around 3-6oz, I have a ton of little 2oz, and 4oz plastic containers (I label with colored stickers whats inside), and usually portion the boneless meats and organs into those. The bone-in meats get portioned into ziplock baggies. This usually means that I will grab a couple of those little containers out to defrost, but I have them in easy to use amounts, especially if I want to mix different meats in a meal. As your two are still kits.. they'll likely use a good few containers at a time. It's a little hard when just starting your switch as they need to get used to new meats and there can be a lot of wasting too at first, but it's still helpful to get into the habit and will help you keep an eye on the amounts given and eaten.

You can also take a look at this to get an idea: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/12414/preping-food-bulk-frankenprey-diet