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Post by Corvidophile on Mar 4, 2016 21:55:55 GMT -5
Fiber for the occasional needs of carnivores: Nutritionally indigestable, but easy to pass roughage, without any excess sugars or carbs, and just to cover all bases, not poisonous either. Frequently used are short hairs (as in whole prey), "ash" in the case of commercial pet foods (God only knows what this ash is the remains of), cellulose fiber (aka paper pulp, we find this as a people food additive commonly) and of course, vegetables of various types. But, why are pumpkin/squash/sweet potato/yams chosen as the "shove it OUT" fibers to feed instead of less nutritive vegetables? Like celery, for instance. Even we omnivores can't get calories out of celery, let alone a ferret. Practically no carbs or sugars = practically no glycemic impact, and the stringy nature of it is voluminous enough to push out the foreign body that caused the concern. Alfalfa is also non-nutritive to ferrets, even herbivores need to eat it twice to digest it. Frankly it's always puzzled me why pumpkin/squash/sweet potato/yams were chosen as the fibers to use for ferrets, given their relatively high carbohydrate load. Is it just leftover advice brought from the raw dog community? Is it the bright orange coloration being easy to spot in stools? Palatability? It coming in cans that are good for years? I tried getting Winnipeg to eat pumpkin a while back to see if he would, he didn't recognize it as food. I ate a spoon of it and agreed.  but he'll try and tear a hole in my pants to climb me if I'm cutting celery. I played Attack The Celery Stalk with him and he stole it and took it under a couch and began eating it. I took it away and looked at what's in celery at www.nutritiondata.self.com and frankly just let him have part of it, I can't find anything ferretly harmful in it and the glycemic load of him eating the stomach and intestine content of whole prey is far, FAR higher. Is there something wrong with it I'm missing? Would it be fine to use celery as my "shove it OUT" fiber of choice? |
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Post by Heather on Mar 4, 2016 22:15:20 GMT -5
A raw piece of celery is a blockage hazard. Pumpkin is cooked and serves as both to hydrate the bowel and to absorb moisture depending on the amount. Celery does none of these things when cooked
ciao
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Post by Corvidophile on Mar 4, 2016 22:48:24 GMT -5
Why's it a blockage hazard though, what properties makes it that? Also, does the pumpkin/etc need to be cooked, and why?
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Post by Heather on Mar 4, 2016 23:01:30 GMT -5
Because a ferret cannot digest it at all. They're not designed to chew and eat this type of veggie matter. It remains solid and just becomes a hard mass that causes a blockage
ciao
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Post by bitbyter on Mar 4, 2016 23:18:19 GMT -5
Even if you were to cook celery to death it's fibres stay long and intact. It could potentially worsen the issue. Same with Spaghetti squash. Neither celery or spaghetti squash would be good choices (or things like spinach, kale, chard, etc). Pumpkin is used for a few reasons: 1. It is fibrous enough to help push things through but not so fibrous that it could potentially cause more of an issue. 2. It is ORANGE. Of all the possible colours of ferret poop it's pretty hard to mistake pumpkin coming out of the rear end of a ferret for something else  Other veggies might be mistaken for mucous (in the case of off white veggies), bacterial upset (in the case of green veggies), etc. 3. It is pretty easily available in an already cooked form (for emergencies). Yes it does have a carb load but it is for emergency use only. The difference between using pumpkin vs. another vegetable just for that reason would be negligible. Blockages are life threatening situations, the amount of carbs in the pumpkin is well worth the infitesimal risk of using it in an emergency situation. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2016 23:32:41 GMT -5
If you check this page you can see that it takes far less pumpkin to get way more fiber both soluble and insoluble fiber than celery www.prebiotin.com/resources/fiber-content-of-foods/ (it goes alphabetically through tabs at the top) Not sure if that is helpful, I'm not real bright lol but for some reason when I saw that I thought Ahhah! |
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Post by Sherry on Mar 4, 2016 23:37:31 GMT -5
As the others have already stated- pumpkin or butternut squash are the very few veg that even when cooked do not present a hazard, and yet at the same time provide enough bulk to push through a potential blockage. Keep in mind this is ONLY done to hopefully prevent surgery or death.
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Post by Corvidophile on Mar 4, 2016 23:56:53 GMT -5
Ah, ok, the fibers being too long and tangly make sense. It didn't remain hard inside of him though, it was softened into mush when it came out. He didn't digest it, but definitely the acid in his stomach softened it.
What's the jury say on cooked beans? They have a whopping amount of insoluble fiber. It's mealy instead of stringy, though, does that render it useless? Does the famous musical bloating that plagues humans happen in the gut environment of a ferret?
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Post by bitbyter on Mar 5, 2016 0:02:01 GMT -5
No idea on the beans but I'm curious, why experiment. We know pumpkin works, it does what is needed and is safe. Feeding your ferret various veggies just for curiosity's sake is kind of unethical.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 5, 2016 0:02:36 GMT -5
Why not just use pumpkin or squash when there is an emergency? Why the need to experiment with something that might be used 3-4 times max in a ferret's life?
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Post by Corvidophile on Mar 5, 2016 0:18:21 GMT -5
Because this is how learning about new things happens, by questioning the old standards and breaking down why and how they work, we may be able to find alternatives. Also, there are often studies available on the glycemic impact of things regarding ferrets, they're used in research for this type of thing. I was just scratching your collective heads is all.
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Post by maja01 on Mar 5, 2016 7:00:28 GMT -5
Probably because the pumpkin really has almost no nutritional value (for ferrets). If you compare nutritional profile for 100g of cooked pumpkin vs. 100 g of cooked sweet potatoe vs 100 g of cooked beans you can see these differences:
Pumpkin:
cal.: 20
total ch: 5g (2%)
fiber: 1,1 g (4%)
starch: -
protein: 1g
Sweet potatoe:
cal.: 90
total ch: 21g (7%)
fiber: 3,3 g (13%)
starch: 7 g
protein: 2g
Beans:
cal.: 127
total ch: 23 g (8%)
fiber: 6,4 g (26%)
starch: -
protein: 9 g
Pumpkin has really low carbohydrates values + there are no protein content. All you really want is just the fibre - and both type of fibre, soluble and unsoluble. Soluble soaks up water and helps bulk up the stool, insoluble insoluble keeps the bowel moving.
One more reason why pumpkin (I am sure it would also work with some other veggies as well and would not cause harm since it is only given just once and on rare ocasions, ...) it is easily available as a canned pumpkin (at least in your part of the world) and a lot f people have some sliced/chopped pumpkin in their freezer anyway, or if you have a whole one, it also does not take a whole bunch of time to prepare it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 8:56:12 GMT -5
Because this is how learning about new things happens, by questioning the old standards and breaking down why and how they work, we may be able to find alternatives. Also, there are often studies available on the glycemic impact of things regarding ferrets, they're used in research for this type of thing. I was just scratching your collective heads is all. There is a wonderful Ferret expert who publishes and speaks at symposiums. His name is Bob Church if you want to look him up. Research is a wonderful thing and discussions can be so helpful. However I wouldn't want to experiment on our ferrets. Unfortunately there are far too many ferrets being used in research and we can read and learn from those results without causing harm to our own ferrets. The long and short of it (pun intended) is that the unusually short intestinal tract of ferrets and closely related mustelids lack a cecum and ileocolic valve. As a result, the transit time of ingesta in these carnivores is very rapid compared with other animals, and their food is inefficiently digested. They simply are not built to process fruits/grains/starches and veggies. Giving them these foods put stress on their bodies and causes harm in the long term. Insulinoma being one end result. Keep asking questions and learning, that's a good thing. Just keep in mind that Ferrets are obligate carnivores and that is one proven and true result based on animal science. :wave3: |
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Post by Corvidophile on Mar 5, 2016 11:12:52 GMT -5
Thank you for the more indepth explanations, this is what I was hoping for. I don't mean to come across as snotty when I say "but WHY?", I just truly want to know and can't accept "if it ain't broke" logic as an answer. I can see I raised some suspicion and annoyance accidentally.
Think of me asking about how ferrets process vegetables differently than omnivores the same way you think about people asking about how ferrets process different aspects of animals, as trying to work out my own reasons to include or disclude new items. Like learning to balance a frankenprey menu on my own instead of just going to the vault and copying what other people did without knowing the why's and how's- if I run out of something, I'll know how to replace it. Just because I ask about feeding veggies doesn't mean I'm gonna start tossing him salad willynilly, but I DO want to know the mechanisms behind using them as fiber, you get what I'm saying?
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Post by Corvidophile on Mar 5, 2016 11:18:12 GMT -5
Oh I actually forgot to ask another thing, how can pumpkin be made more palatable? Can I mix eggs and chicken bouillon into it?
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