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Post by Sherry on May 16, 2011 21:05:13 GMT -5
No, the protocol doesn't change. Willow is also profoundly deaf. When he seeks you out to bite you, get up and move. Gently push him away with your foot. He truly doesn't understand that he's biting too hard. Most young ferret hone in on the verbal cues to stop biting. Obviously a deaf ferret can't do that. They will have inappropriate behaviour for most of their lives. As in, hissing when they should be dooking, dooking when they are upset, and taking a very long time to learn bite inhibition. You had some major progress with him. Don't let the setbacks discourage you. When you approach him, don't just touch him. Bang the floor, flash a light, what ever you decide to do to let him know you are there. Here's a wonderful link on deaf ferrets: www.wolfysluv.com/deaf.htmlJust keep doing what you are doing(and remember- no treats when he bites), take several deep breaths, and you will get there!
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Post by Heather on May 16, 2011 22:07:14 GMT -5
Sherry's right. The protocol doesn't change, you now understand what part of the problem is. I'm sorry but you have made huge headway. Be consistent, try not to get angry with him, he searches you out because he wants you to play with him. He bites you because he wants you to notice him. His behaviour will, as Sherry pointed out, often be inappropriate to the situation. This is the stage that you have to win so that you don't find yourself with a Fun-Go, Willow and so many of these little ones. You will win, but it's a long slow journey. We're here when you need a shoulder, though I'm sure that bandaids work better ciao
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Post by kristin on May 16, 2011 22:25:16 GMT -5
He kind of reminds me of this friend I had with Aspergers. Not sure if you're familiar with the syndrome, but it's on the Autism spectrum. Basically, folks with Aspergers can't read other people's emotions. He would approach me because he wanted to interact but then would stand way too close and speak too loudly and just monologue without a real conversation. And he couldn't read my body language to understand I was uncomfortable. His behavior certainly was often "inappropriate to the situation." Laughing when I hurt myself, etc. I'll keep reminding myself that he doesn't know better. This is so hard. Thanks for the link. I've been tapping three times on the floor with Marlee and she totally responds to that now. Looks right up at my face when I do it. I'll start a similar cue for my little boy. Maybe try the flashlight thing. Or a laser. And bandaids.
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Post by Heather on May 16, 2011 22:40:23 GMT -5
Have you checked out the various threads on Waardenburgs or neural crest syndrome? you may want to, I think you may see your furbaby in those descriptions. ciao
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 22:55:14 GMT -5
No laser! Something that you noted, that you were using a blanket to fend him off when he charged you? I'm thinking that this may have become ritualized in his mind as play: he charges, you get the blanket, you guys "wrestle" (his wrestling is going to be along ferret lines, with biting... Perhaps try breaking that action/reaction as well. I know that it's hard, but take the time, and things will change; it took over a year for me to trust my Willow
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Post by Sherry on May 17, 2011 8:49:22 GMT -5
Cliff has a point on the blanket thing. He did that for a long time with Willow, because it was almost the only way to stay away from her teeth. However- she thought it the most wonderful game ;D She still does- and it's still one of the few times where she still bites regularly . It's not anywhere near as hard(think to the bone) as it was, but it still hurts! Basically, she came to associate having to bite with being able to play this game, and he's not been able to completely cure her of that(she doesn't LIKE to play this game with me ) Oh- and Willow also displays signs of Waardenburgs.
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Post by kristin on May 17, 2011 10:55:23 GMT -5
My little girl ferret Marlee also has Waardenburg -- which I didn't know about until I got her home. She is deaf and very slow. Doesn't interact with other ferrets much but doesn't mind humans, being held, etc.
The new baby doesn't seem to have any of the other symptoms aside from deafness. But then who knows -- I didn't think he was deaf until yesterday.
I don't know what else to use to fend him off besides the blanket. Or a towel. If I push him away with my arm, he latches on. Should I use a book or something non-soft?
Also, why no laser? I saw that recommended in an article on deafies and it seemed to make sense, as long as you don't point it at them -- just at the ground in front of them to get their attention.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 12:06:23 GMT -5
They move fast and reactively, so they might well get ahead of you and into the laser -- there's just no safe way to do it.
When we were with Willow in the beginning -- I'm not going to say training, but rather the period when we were getting to know one another and adjusting BOTH of our behaviours' as warranted -- I didn't really have the luxury of sitting down, ergo the recommendation of taking a tactically dominant position, such as standing. Wear jeans, shoes, socks; use the blanket to initiate play at your discretion, but do it a few times each day so as to make Ashton comfortable with it; use a SEPARATE towel to grab him -- IF NECESSARY -- and place him in the time-out cage. If he does anything inappropriate, but that does not require confinement, ignore him so that there is no interaction either positive or negative between the two of you.
I wish that I could say that there was a definite time-line for concrete progress, but there isn't, and all I can do is beg for your patience with this little one...
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2011 13:30:08 GMT -5
You know, also, keep to your instincts about the AS and your furbaby. Think of the sensory issues that come with the territory as much as "emotional issues" (every animal has trouble with human emotions as it is not their body language--some learn better than others, right?)--a deaf fuzz will have their own sensory issues. I work with a lot of kids on the spectrum and it is amazing the "tips" that translate from working with the kids, over to certain animals (but any Temple Grandin book will add to that evidence). My George kitty was a great example of that--she was a run and hide in tiny places cat and now she comes when I call--we have specific rituals we share (my mom thinks it is hilarious). Again, lessons from that, consistency, patience, and observation. You will learn to read his body language and this will help you to deter/redirect these behaviors before they start. Sounds like he really wants to play with you but can't hear when play hurts--plus the obvious other distresses that happened so early in his life.
The trick is to create some "games" with him that he likes and prefers over the "bite to wrestle" game too, as I agree with Cliff there. Paulie was being an awful nipper with my friend last week and kept grabbing the skin of her arm--something he never does. Well, I remembered the first time he played with her she had on sleeves and he created a game where he grabbed the end of the sleeve and got spun around and wrestled. He kept jumping for the sleeves that weren't there! So these guys remember crazy things as "games."
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Post by Sherry on May 17, 2011 20:24:12 GMT -5
It is true that just because he's deaf, it doesn't necessarily follow that he has Waardenburg's. Lucrezia is deaf, and she's fine otherwise. Zeus is hearing, and I'm pretty sure he DOES have it. I agree that I think he's trying to get you to play, but doesn't know how to approach it properly. You can try wrestling him with a stuffed animal, play "chase", etc. Willow's favourite for her very first game(she also had no idea of how to be a ferret), was me "stomping" toward her, waving a towel over her. She could feel the vibrations of me "stomping", so clued into what was happening. I would stomp forward, and as soon as she moved toward me, I stomped backward. She'd move away, and I'd go forwards again, waving the towel for her to grab and wrestle. If you can get him playing where it doesn't involve him biting, and do time outs every time he DOES bite, sooner or later, he's going to associate the two.
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Post by kristin on May 18, 2011 11:09:32 GMT -5
I sat in the room for a long time last night watching him play. (Oh and sorry but my BF vetoed the name "Ashton" He said it reminded him of Ashton Kutcher who is a moron! I think we're calling him "Tater" like Tater-tot because it's cute and makes me laugh.) Anyways I was just watching him. Not to sound like a new-agey space cadet, but I've always had a connection with animals. Could communicate with them naturally in ways nobody else I knew could. They come to me. I have a ton of experience with tiny kittens (working at the shelter bottle-feeding) and puppies and even birds. I have lots of ferret experience, but none of it with babies or biters. So I wasn't trusting my own instincts with Tater. I felt like I knew what he needed but didn't trust that feeling. After watching him last night, I decided to try something totally different. The time-outs weren't working for either of us -- I felt like it was putting a human infant in time-out -- it's pointless when they haven't reached a certain level of maturity. Tater keeps nursing on the blankets -- that tells me he was weaned too young and/or the weaning was traumatic. So I went in quietly and scooped him up in the dryer-warmed blanket and scruffed him and put him on his back. And I started so so gently washing him with a warm wash cloth. Gently washing his little face with one finger, like his mom would do. Washed his little belly. He stopped struggling and just lay there with his eyes half-closed. I gave him lots of loving. When I unscruffed him, he lay there for a minute and then got up. And I was ready with the ferretone on my palm. He licked it carefully, and each time he started to apply teeth with the licking, I gently scruffed him (without moving him -- just held his scruff) for a second or two and then let him return to licking my palm. We did this for 5 or ten minutes. Then I lowered him to the ground and let him play and left the room. I came back a few hours later and did it all over again. The second time, I pureed some chicken and warmed it and fed it to him on my lap, pulling him gently away when he started using teeth and releasing him to continue, over and over. I set him down and he dooked and ran off. Then I played with him with the stuffed otter, no hands showing. After awhile he climbed up into my lap, and I left my hands on my legs. He sniffed one of them and then the other -- no bites. I turned my palm up so he could lick it and we did the 'tone treatment again. When he was done, he got off my lap and went to go play. No scruff involved. Later I came to the baby gate and hung over it. Cricket always stands on her hind legs and reaches up for me to pick her up when I do that. This time, Tater did the same. I picked up Cricket and loved her and put her back down. And then I did the same to Tater. He licked my face. I put him back down. He went to go play. I think this is going to work for us. I'm applying some methods I remember from learning about troubled children. Ones who didn't receive enough physical love as infants. Attachment parenting. It's a gentle brand of tough love: "You WILL lie here and let me love you." I'll keep you updated, but I think we're on the right path.
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Post by Sherry on May 18, 2011 11:22:38 GMT -5
Oh, that is FANTASTIC!!! Hey- you found something that he can relate to, and that's what's important I'm SO glad!
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Post by suds on May 18, 2011 13:05:03 GMT -5
wow good instinks ferts are like people in many ways what works for 1 doesnt mean it work for another .. you found common ground and gaining his trust . paitents is always key keep up the good work how is he with your BF did he goe after him to ?
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Post by Heather on May 18, 2011 14:36:07 GMT -5
Excellent, excellent work You've got it. That is a fantastic way to work it. I will have to try the warmed washcloth thing. Minion's treatments require him to be snuggled for 10 min 3x a day and I found that I had to scruff him. The one thing I discovered was laying him on his back on my lap and very gently messaging him. Some days work better than others but I really like the warmed wash cloth deal. I think you've found something that really works for you little one. I do think that a lot of the biting problems we encounter is indeed because these little ones are not allowed to nurse long enough and get enough of their momma's love and discipline. Great job ciao
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Post by kristin on May 18, 2011 16:01:21 GMT -5
Thanks you guys. I am a student of massage and fascinated by accupressure -- my sister is a Reiki practitioner -- I'm very into learning about the healing of touch. I also was inspired by this story I heard on NPR -- it was about humans, but really spoke to me. A woman adopted a 6 year old boy from a Russian orphanage, and he'd lived his whole life in this crib. He didn't receive any love or attention, just the necessities. When they brought him home, he was very violent. He tried to kill his little sister with a steak knife. He regularly attacked his mother. As a last-ditch effort, she followed the recommendations of this therapist and reverted him to a baby state, a la attachment parenting. She physically kept him at her side all day every day, and she fed him with a spoon. Constantly touching him and looking into his eyes. It's a bit unorthodox, but truly amazing. They played the boy's graduation speech where he thanked his parents for sticking it out with him... truly inspiring. Ferrets are obviously not humans, but I think all creatures great and small have a need to be loved and coddled, and if they don't get that sufficiently when little, they cannot function normally. Studies on rat pups show they wither and die when they don't get loving physical contact as babies. I think we're all kind of like that. Oh and Suds -- he originally went after my BF as well. But right now I'm not letting him interact with the little guy since I want to control his human interactions so they're all consistent.
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