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Post by Celene on May 3, 2015 19:02:50 GMT -5
Have you tried blending anything into the organ soup like egg or salmon oil? If my girls aren't in the mood to eat organs I usually put just a couple tiny drops of salmon oil on top of the soup and that gets them going.
Also, if they just don't like soupies (I know some humans who hate oatmeal, tapioca and anything "gooey") try feeding the organs in chunks. Start with hearts which are usually the easiest, then liver, etc.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 10:44:16 GMT -5
The mass batch I made a while ago had egg in it, but I'm not sure if the stuff the munchkins have been getting these past few times had it. I added a little salmon oil and just got a few licks out of each of them. I am really surprised Belrand hasn't been going after it more. He eats everything! They have eaten hearts moo problem, just having issue with soup.
I've also been dealing with food aggression in the bottom cage. I've checked to make sure no one is starving, but one of the girls keeps growling at people when they eat, and only when its something she wants (Not sure if it's Peach or Daisy, because they stop when I get up to check on them. But I see it at the end of my bed (which is where their cage is)). I am going to get another bowl for them, but nit sure if this is a common problem?
Jake's fur is a little softer too. It's been a couple days since his implant, and I noticed today, he's softer. Not sure if you'd know how long until his aggression dies down? I want to have one happy business, but will continue with two if I have to. I was wondering how long do you think I should wait to reintroduce everyone. Should I also try doing this in a more neutral area? Everyone else has met and really loves my boys. It's just Jake. Well, I'm not sure he hates them, but the boys don't know that Jake is sick, so they act like they're dying. All thoughts appreciated!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 12:26:08 GMT -5
I purchased a whole chicken today. I was wondering, when I was butchering the chicken, I feel like some of the meals ended up being lighter on bones than others. I tried really hard to keep the bone to meat ratio as even as possible. Is this still okay? Even the meals that are lightwr on bones, do they still count as bone in meals? It seems like there aren't very many binges in a chicken ... I purchased a small chicken, they should still be able to eat the legs? I did chop the leg bones into fairly small pieces, but they still should be able to eat them? When do I stop tenderizing the bones? I don't mind doing it, but they should eventually be able to eat the bone with out it being in multiple pieces, right? Also, some of the bones free themselves from the meat, they should want to eat the bones by themselves? It was primarily rib bones, which are much smaller, that decided to be lonely.
I also spoke with the butcher at my work, and she said that she would be able to order in rabbits but she wasn't sure how much it would cost (sure said she thinks she sold them at $6 a lb). She said that they get their rabbit in as a whole butchered rabbit, but that should be fine too? I'm not sure if it's young rabbit, or an older rabbit. If I went this route, how much of the bones would they be able to eat? She also said she'd look into ordering whole goose, but being off season wasn't sure if she'd be able to do that. I've managed to make some spoiled ferrets, haha!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 14:16:13 GMT -5
Also found one place where I can get goose for just under $6 a lb. Would duck be better I was recommended that as a similar substitute for goose. Is this true? Seems odd, but duck is cheaper. How much if that would they be able to eat?
Sorry I'm spamming the questions, haha!
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Post by Celene on May 4, 2015 19:54:48 GMT -5
No you're not spamming at all! I had a really busy day at work so didn't have so much of a second to spare for internet browsing! I am going to answer all your questions, although in no particular order 1. Duck vs goose. As far as I know, they are fairly similar nutritionally and neither is better - just different. Unless you get necks or the very tip of the wings, duck and goose are basically just "muscle" meals so feed accordingly and make sure you still get at least one red meat (beef, lamb or whatever) meal per week. 2. Food fights - they're natural, and good, because they mean your ferrets are enjoying their food enough to want to fight over it! Unless they're getting really aggressive (one is soiling themselves in fear or blood is drawn) food fights are all in good fun, sort of like wrestling and playing. 3. Jake: The DES implant takes a minimum of 6-8 weeks to start kicking in. 4. Chicken & bones: It's not a big deal if some meals have more bone than others, because it will balance out over time. Although for the breasts (which don't have much bone at all) I usually mix some in with the bone portions, and save the rest for straight muscle meals. You can stop the tendering of the bones at whatever point they can eat them on their own. I would suggest smashing a little less next time, barely at all the time after, etc. Of course if they seem to be having difficulty eating them, then maybe go back to smashing them a little. It can take some time for ferrets to get used to eating bones and build up jaw strength. Also don't worry about them eating too much bone, unless you start seeing lots of bone fragments in poop. Sometimes I see my fuzzies eating plain bone, but it's usually because they've already devoured the meat off it! 5. Organs. I asked around, and apparently some ferrets just really don't like soupies! It's not a bad idea to introduce it to them though. I know many ferrents who feed soup once a month to keep their guys used to it in case they ever get ill and need to subsist off of it, then there isn't the issue of trying to introduce a new food to a sick ferret who needs to eat. 6. Rabbit. By "whole butchered" do you mean the entire rabbit, just pre-cut? I bought a new brand of rabbit last time and was (pleasantly) surprised (and a little squeamish) to discover it still had all the organs intact! Technically they should be able to eat all of it, depending on the size of the rabbit, although the (hind) leg bones looked a little too thick for my girls this time around so I just deboned them and kept the meat for muscle meals. Wild rabbits are better than farmed ones if you can get them, because they run around a lot more and therefore are higher in taurine. Of course both are good, but like I said previously if you're feeding a few meals a week of rabbit, maybe add in some extra heart to their diet as well I hope I didn't miss anything, but let me know if I did!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 21:57:19 GMT -5
I think it is a soup thing, but I'm going to try to get them to eat it still. God forbid either of my boys gets sick, but if they do, I want to be able to feed them. As for bones, I added breast meat to each 'packet' of bones. Didn't leave much extra
For the rabbit, all I got was 'it comes in a box like this'. No idea what that means, but that's what I got out of her. I'll probably go ahead on that route, and we shall see.
Red meat, what does that consist of exactly? This is what I got when I asked Google "Chicken breast meat is the archetypal white meat, and gastronomically, chicken and rabbit are categorically considered white meat, while cow, sheep, and horse meat are considered red. Generally the meat of milk-fed veal and pork are considered white, while the meat of ducks and goose are considered red." I haven't tried the beef yet, but Google says duck and goose are red meats? Is this true? I thought beef, bison & lamb were the only ones that I could really find. So far lamb and bison haven't gone over very well (although they'll eat it).
It shall be a long trek till my Jake man will play nice with others. I shall wait and see.
I shall be buying a duck (and hopefully butchering said duck) in the morning. I am hoping they like duck too, it'll be nicer to spend $20 on a duck instead of $60 on a goose, haha! I've never debone anything, so we shall see how that fares!
Is there a particular order which feeding meats goes best? I have kinda just been doing it randomly until I figure out a good set of meats that works best. I'm trying to find some sort of semblance of a schedule.
I understand busy, I just kept remembering things as I was out and about. I think that's everything! If I remember anything else, I'll spam you again, haha!
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Post by Celene on May 5, 2015 9:05:33 GMT -5
When it comes to red meat, I think in this case the idea is dark-meat hooved animals. I think the idea is that they're high in iron and Vitamin B. Duck is high in iron and low in Vitamin B; pork (while hooved) is low in iron but fairly high in Vitamin B. It isn't a hard-fast rule, it's mostly about getting a variety and balance of nutrients. Beef is a lot cheaper than lamb and bison, it has a stronger/different taste than chicken, but if you feed it and they eat it they'll develop a taste for it. As for schedule, this is the one I've come up with and use on a weekly basis: I feed 9 bone-in meals, but replace up to two of them with muscle and eggshell powder so I'm still getting at least 7 "true" bone-in meals. I also like to sandwich organ meals between bone-in ones since organs make their poops gross enough as it is. Every Sunday I will mix and match their meals for the week and label them in containers. Finally, duck. Duck is a new taste for them to get used to initially (like any protein) but now that they're used to it, my girls LOVE it. If you're getting a whole duck they can probably eat other bones such as ribs and back, depending on the size of the duck. Some people (mostly in the UK) feed pretty much all of the duck with bones except for the legs, although their ferrets are much bigger and stronger so it really depends. (The reason I didn't suggest duck ribs and backs as a bone-in meat option before is because you don't see those on their own on shelves, but of course if you're butchering a whole duck those will be in there too!)
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 19:57:51 GMT -5
I have no problem feeding them heart. Everyone typically eats it all (I feel like heart weighs less than it is mass wise in comparison to their normal meal, is that true?). As soon as I add the liver into it, my little cage WILL NOT TOUCH IT at all. I have put both egg and salomon oil into it, and I will tell you how that goes when I fed their next meal.
I have done both a pork and a beef meal. My two boys were all for both, and the bottom cage was pretty 'meh' about the whole thing. They ate about 95% of both meals, so it wasn't a fail, but it wasn't a hit.
I also need to find a different source for the duck because of the fact that when I went to buy the duck, found it was soaked in a salt bath and then I got sad. Found duck for the same price per pound as I found goose at whole foods, but at that point, why not just get the goose? Lol. Not sure they can eat any more bones out of the goose than they could the duck? Obviously goose is much bigger ...
I will be getting weights and my menu up for you in the morning. So far, the only problem I'm having so far is the organ issue. I have seen everyone crunching bones and everyone is seeming very healthy. Belrand might be older than I thought? I am having issues figuring that out. He is very mellow when he's not playing (which he still does a lot) but he hasn't really grown much this past week. Is there a better way to figure out how old a kit is?
Yeah, still looking for rabbit. Seems like my source isn't actually able to order it. She tried ... and failed. Anyway, back on that horse. Might have a lead to somewhere else that may rabbit, but not 100% sure what price and if they'll be boned or not ...
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 20:10:57 GMT -5
And I totally have those containers, but I use them for organs, lol. The little cage eats more than will fit in those tubs generally and I could probably use that for the little cage, but ... I just put them in snack sized baggies, lol
I will also be changing up my menu starting next week so that I can try hand feeding the organ soupie ( I am going to try working backwards to get the boys to eat soup).
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Post by Celene on May 7, 2015 21:12:15 GMT -5
I'll start with the biggest issue first: Liver. Something just occurred to me, are you feeding beef liver? I know beef generally has a much stronger taste than chicken and is more difficult to introduce to ferrets, and after a bit of googling (because I don't eat it myself) it seems that it is very much the same with liver: Beef has a much stronger flavour. I know chicken livers are incredibly cheap, so it's definitely worth a shot. My girls love heart, but I bought 1/4 of a beef heart once and they wouldn't touch it. I'm glad you had success introducing two new proteins - eating 95% of it is a lot better results than most people get their first time around. Don't worry if they don't go crazy and fight over it - even ferrets can't have pizza and ice cream for every meal! Any chance you can get a picture of Belrand's teeth? Ferrets can be aged reasonably accurately based on their teeth, specifically how far up the clarity on their canines goes. Kits' teeth are milk white. This is an example of my Mo's teeth, you can see the clarity is just about half way up and she's estimated to be about 4-5 years old. Her other canine is chipped, although it happened before she came to us so we don't know how it happened. Finally, whereabouts in Colorado do you live? I know we have at least one mentor in that state, and probably more members so they might be able to give you some leads on good meat sources.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 22:15:40 GMT -5
I am actually feeding all chicken (some turkey) organs. This last batch that I made up the other day is 100% chicken. I haven't actually gotten beef, because the bigger organs kinda gross me out more than the smaller ones, lol. I don't even know WHY they won't eat it. I made a 'chunky' heart meal for them, since I know that they will pretty much eat the heart whole, and I also used that same 'chunky' heart for their soup. I am hoping that having kinda whole pieces of heart in their soup might encourage them to eat it. I just don't know why they won't eat the liver. What does liver do and is there a way to get that into their diet elsewhere? I am just a little frustrated, because they will literally skip that meal! They take like two, maybe three licks a piece, and then done. Ferret food goes to the cat (which makes my little fat cat happy) but still. They need to eat it! RAWR!
I will try getting a picture of Belrand's teeth in the morning. Wish I knew when his b-day was! Hahaha
I live in Fort Collins and frequently go down to Denver/Westminster (and anything directly off the highway) and my parents live in Aurora, so I can head down there probably every couple of months and stock up if need be. I know that Kim (don't know who she is on here but I am her friend on Facebook) lives down in the Denver area. She actually helped me find the vet that was able to get Jake his implant. She is currently being mentored, but not sure exactly by who, lol.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 7:17:19 GMT -5
Here is my food chart for the week. I am switching up my feeding methods this week and making organs an am meal and putting the egg of organ days so as to not over do the egg feeding (kinda been a little messy poopers this week) ... I am actually really surprised at how clear this picture ended up. That is my little man's teeth. They are very white. Can you actually tell exactly how old he is by those little perfect pearly whites? Lol
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Post by Celene on May 8, 2015 9:03:50 GMT -5
Ooooh, those are pretty teeth indeed! As far as I know, between the point they lose their "baby" teeth and their adult ones grow in, and up to a year (when clarity starts) there isn't much difference. The good news is he's DEFINITELY under a year old (some people have bought old ferrets at petco - probably returns - and told they were kits). I would say based on the fact that he's grown/put on a lot of weight since you got him, and his current weight, he's probably in the 4-6 months range - but that's a total estimate! Fun fact: Ferrets who are fed a raw diet from birth never develop clarity in their teeth and are impossible to age! But yeah, in general, teeth-aging is accurate in the sense that at certain clarity levels they will definitely be in that age range, but not necessarily specific. Usually the range is about 1-2 years. It's especially useful though for aging rescues/ferrets with unknown origins. Your menu looks great. At this point we just need to work on adding in some more variety. If you're worried about poops, I know some people mix just a little bit of eggshell powder in their organ meals. I'm tagging Desiree, who is a mentor here in Colorado. She's from the opposite side of the state as you, but maybe she'll have some leads on sources or at least know other CO ferrents who might.
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Post by Celene on May 8, 2015 9:37:12 GMT -5
Now for... *drumroll* the liver post! First of all, there's no dispensing with liver! For humans they call it a "super food" (that that most of us listen anyway), but it is an important source of Vitamin A, iron, and tons of other important nutrients. I've made a list of ideas to try, and some we've already gone through, but we need to make sure we give them all a shot! 1. Spoon/hand feeding: This is the one I mostly use when my girls are being stubborn. In the photo below, I hadn't fed lamb for a few weeks and my Mocha was super reluctant to try it. I put a little drop of salmon oil on the end I offered to her, although dipping in egg yolk works just as well. Normally, I hold the ferret (gently) in my right arm and/or on my lap and feed with my left, but my right hand was occupied with the camera 2. Feeding liver two meals in a row: If they hold out the first time, but then get it for the next meal as well then they'll realize there's nothing else coming and be too hungry to really care. 3. Feeding soup: If you can get your boys to eat heart soupies, then you just need to slowly mix in a little more liver each time until it's mostly/all liver! 3a. You can also do the same as above with smaller chunks - mix only a couple pieces of liver in the first time, and slowly increase the liver/heart ratio. 4. Adding salmon oil/egg yolk on top: Just a drop at a time on top while you hand feed, or a few drops on top of the meal in the bowl before serving. If it's not mixed in it will be a more concentrated "smell" of yumminess. The hope is that as they lick the liver a few times to eat the oil/egg, they will taste the liver and continue to eat it. Sometimes if they're being REALLY fussy, you can repeat this after they've licked the top oil/egg off and eaten a few bites. 5. Trying a different protein: When talking to the other mentors, one mentioned that she has a ferret who loves beef liver, but absolutely refuses to eat chicken liver. I know it's normally the other way around, but ferrets are silly and always want to be different/difficult. 6. Grating liver on top of a favourite meal: The easiest way to accomplish this is by freezing liver first, then grating it while frozen. You can also puree and make a liver "sauce" to drizzle over a favourite meal too. 7. Serve at different temperatures: Frozen, warm, cold... Hopefully one of those will work. If you start grating just a little bit of liver onto each meal they'll HAVE to try it eventually...
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Post by Desiree on May 8, 2015 11:42:13 GMT -5
Just dropping in to give you the address to the H-mart in Aurora. I love this place, they have lots and lots of variety, from frog legs to duck, to beef and pork tongue. My parents live in Aurora too so I stock up when I go to visit them. They are also have quail eggs in the fridge section. h-mart Shoppes At Parker, 2751 S Parker Rd Aurora, CO
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