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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 18:57:45 GMT -5
I think the tail is more likely to get MORE blood, but the pads is easier in general. Try warming the area first (rub it, warm towel) that will make the blood flow in the area and hopefullly make ti bleed better. Also, after you poke the area, 'milk' it moving from up the paw down.
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Post by Desiree on Feb 5, 2015 12:10:27 GMT -5
I'll give it another whirl here soon. Pretty sure he's still mad at me from yesterday. I poked him a lot. So the terror twins (Tundra and Arbor) devoured 10 ounces of pork yesterday! Riot helped a little. Then they won't even touch their mice last night or this morning. Rebel and Riot got their beef tongue and liver meal so I gave the remainder to Tubdra and Arbor and they both kind of snubbed it. But they are young and can skip a meal so I'm leaving the mice and the organs out till dinner time. The mice are gutted, no intestines stomach etc with the secret ring organs still intact cut into thirds. Hair still attached. I've tried scruff and stuff with both of them. Arbor took a piece but just stashed it. My thought is to make a mice grind, one mice per day so half a mice per meal and add it to their other foods for a few days and then try another meal?? I have rats and guinea pigs and rabbits to try too. Little buggers! I have a 10 day menu planned but I'm still working on the numbers for the organs. This menu is only for Tundra and Arbor with the whole prey since Riot isn't quite up to speed on the whole prey thing. Apparently none of them are!! I'll post a menu for him too and this menu will be what Rebel will move towards. Oh and Rebel will pick up a sliver, chew it and then leave the rest on the ground.
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Post by Desiree on Feb 5, 2015 14:17:00 GMT -5
Partial success!! I attached a mouse bottom by the tail to one of my cat toys and had Arbor chase it around! We played for a little bit and then she pulled it off and went and ate it!! She didn't go back to the plate for seconds but hey it's something!!
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Post by Desiree on Feb 6, 2015 12:06:52 GMT -5
Took them 24 hours but the mice is gone! They finished it around dinner time and I gave them their frog legs which they have thoroughly enjoyed. (Mice poops mixed with frog legs poops give some super weird, grey (fur) and green poops)
I think it's vet time for Riot, not sure what is wrong but he has very little appetite. I've been trying to get him to eat anything! Soup, stashed greasy food which he loves, anything I feed him, he takes one bite and stashes the rest. He will stash his entire plate if I let him but then he WILL go hungry because my youngins are sure to find it and eat it. I'm going to try and get him in on Tuesday. I hate going in because he won't eat so I'm going to wait it out as long as I can and see if he starts to eat again. My vet is VERY anti-raw and is sure to point to that as the reason for his weightloss and appetite loss. He ate a little bit last night in their cage. Rebel and Riot have a level and the kits have their own level.
I have some rabbit nature's variety raw and some beef ones too. I feed these to my hedgehogs, do you think I can try those to get his appetite moving? Even Rebel is slowing down and I'm wondering if they are tired of the pork soup. I do have a grinder and I can start grinding all kind of meats for them if this is a better solution, perhaps trying to reduce the amount of water in them, then start adding chunks? Rebel is doing so well and she looks so much better than Riot, she is even playing more. She sleeps way more, but she plays her butt off for about an hour till she finds somewhere to lay down.
Okay sorry I'm all over the place but I was just thinking, do you think Riot has his seasons crossed? The reason why he has very little coat and is skinny and has a small appetite? If this is the case when should I start to see his "winter" coat and appetite kick in? Rebel's coat is absolutely the most luxurious of my four, she looks so good and chunky (in a good way).
Weights
Rebel - 1lb 9.4 ozs Riot - 2lb 0.4 ozs Arbor - 1lb 3.7 ozs Tundra - 1lb 6.8 ozs
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Post by Desiree on Feb 6, 2015 15:14:49 GMT -5
If a whole prey meal takes up two meal spots does that count as two meals or one when talking about percentages?
I have rat and guinea pigs which may take up more than one meal spot for the whole meal. Figuring out the percentage for organs and heart.
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Post by Desiree on Feb 7, 2015 13:42:41 GMT -5
Alright I have planned out my meals in meal form since sometimes it takes them more than one day to finish a meal. I wanted to make sure that my percentages are correct. I have 8 oz meals planned. The guinea pig and rat are more than that, depending on the size of the rat and it takes them a little longer to get through them. 12 ozs of rat is taking them a little over a day to get through. So what I did was calculated how much organs and heart they would need with out the rat, guinea pig, mice and smelt which I think is the way to do it. So my math is 14 meals at 8 ozs a meal is 112 ozs, 10% of heart would be 11.2 ozs. An 8 oz meal of heart leaves 3.2 ozs which I just upped to 4 ozs (of beef tongue) for a easy math. Then 10% organs half of which is liver. So 5% liver is 5.6 ozs and 5.6 oz organs. I did one meal of 3.5 oz liver and 3.5 oz kidney. Which leaves the half heart/half organ meal as 2.1 oz liver, 1 oz brain and 1 oz kidney. I also added raw egg to the organ meal to make it a complete 8 ozs. The past weeks meals for Tundra and Arbor. Meal 1 – Chicken Wing BI Meal 2 – Quail BI Meal 3 – Beef Heart MM (8 oz) Meal 4 – Rabbit BI Meal 5 – Pork(Duck)(Pheasant) MM Meal 6 – Mice WP Meal 7 – 4 oz Beef Tongue, 2 oz Liver, 1 oz brain, 1 oz kidney Meal 8 – Frog Legs BI 2/7 Saturday Meal 9 – Rat WP Meal 10 – Goat(Beef) MM 2/8 Sunday Meal 11 – Pheasant BI Meal 12 – Turkey Necks 2/9 Monday Meal 13 – 3.5 oz Liver, 3.5 oz Kidney + raw egg Meal 14 – CGH BI 2/10 Tuesday Meal 15 – Elk MM Meal 16 – Guinea Pig WP 2/11 Wednesday PM Meal 17 – Duck BI 2/12 Thursday AM Meal 18 – Smelt WP Riot is also eating again but I had to put him back on soup to get him to eat. But he has eaten about 4 ozs yesterday. I still haven't been able to get any blood from him, I tried the tail and the pad again and nothing. I don't even get a drop out of pads. But already his hips seem less prominent. Rebel is still on soup too (ground pork with water added) and she's choking on any sliver or pieces. I don't know why? I gave them all some egg the other because they are all hacking! Fur in the rat and mice must have done it to Tundra and Arbor. Arbor did not like the egg, she kept try to grab it and stash it and got really mad when she couldn't stash it. I found a new stashing place too which is hard for me to get too so I'm going to try and block it off. I'm starting to get worried about bugs... now that it's getting warmer. Sorry lots of information. I'm hoping that after this meal planning that I can start to focus more on Rebel and Riot's but I want to make sure that my meal planning is working that way I'll have that down.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 16:59:03 GMT -5
So the terror twins (Tundra and Arbor) devoured 10 ounces of pork yesterday! Riot helped a little. Then they won't even touch their mice last night or this morning. Rebel and Riot got their beef tongue and liver meal so I gave the remainder to Tubdra and Arbor and they both kind of snubbed it. But they are young and can skip a meal so I'm leaving the mice and the organs out till dinner time.
That is exactly how I get away with getting them to eat things, with the younger ones of course.
The mice are gutted, no intestines stomach etc with the secret ring organs still intact cut into thirds. Hair still attached. I've tried scruff and stuff with both of them. Arbor took a piece but just stashed it. My thought is to make a mice grind, one mice per day so half a mice per meal and add it to their other foods for a few days and then try another meal?? I have rats and guinea pigs and rabbits to try too. Little buggers!
That is exactly correct, you have to trick the little buggers into eating it basically.
I have a 10 day menu planned but I'm still working on the numbers for the organs. This menu is only for Tundra and Arbor with the whole prey since Riot isn't quite up to speed on the whole prey thing. Apparently none of them are!! I'll post a menu for him too and this menu will be what Rebel will move towards.
Oh and Rebel will pick up a sliver, chew it and then leave the rest on the ground.
Well she is getting better at least... maybe
Partial success!! I attached a mouse bottom by the tail to one of my cat toys and had Arbor chase it around! We played for a little bit and then she pulled it off and went and ate it!! She didn't go back to the plate for seconds but hey it's something!!
Maybe she thinks she needs LIVE food! Silly girl. The fact she HAS eaten it tells me she will, maybe it just isn't her favorite.
Took them 24 hours but the mice is gone! They finished it around dinner time and I gave them their frog legs which they have thoroughly enjoyed. (Mice poops mixed with frog legs poops give some super weird, grey (fur) and green poops)
o_0 I am envisioning these weird poops... I still think it is crazy that they will eat smelly frog legs, but not mice. Not that mice smell great, but still...
I think it's vet time for Riot, not sure what is wrong but he has very little appetite. I've been trying to get him to eat anything! Soup, stashed greasy food which he loves, anything I feed him, he takes one bite and stashes the rest. He will stash his entire plate if I let him but then he WILL go hungry because my youngins are sure to find it and eat it. I'm going to try and get him in on Tuesday. I hate going in because he won't eat so I'm going to wait it out as long as I can and see if he starts to eat again. My vet is VERY anti-raw and is sure to point to that as the reason for his weightloss and appetite loss. He ate a little bit last night in their cage. Rebel and Riot have a level and the kits have their own level.
One thing to remember is they do not need as much with raw, maybe your overfeeding and that is why he is stashing? How are his poops? Activity level? Would be more comfortable in a feeding den maybe? You can hang the food so he can't as easily take off with it.
I have some rabbit nature's variety raw and some beef ones too. I feed these to my hedgehogs, do you think I can try those to get his appetite moving? Even Rebel is slowing down and I'm wondering if they are tired of the pork soup. I do have a grinder and I can start grinding all kind of meats for them if this is a better solution, perhaps trying to reduce the amount of water in them, then start adding chunks? Rebel is doing so well and she looks so much better than Riot, she is even playing more. She sleeps way more, but she plays her butt off for about an hour till she finds somewhere to lay down.
I love that you feed your hedgies raw too... never knew. You might try mixing up another soupy recipe (IF you feel they still need it) with a different protein. I know when my freezer is low and I have all this chicken or quail to feed and that is all they get for a few days they don't eat it as well on day 3-4. I think they do get tired of things. Then you have you ones that will ONLY eat certain proteins.
Okay sorry I'm all over the place but I was just thinking, do you think Riot has his seasons crossed? The reason why he has very little coat and is skinny and has a small appetite? If this is the case when should I start to see his "winter" coat and appetite kick in? Rebel's coat is absolutely the most luxurious of my four, she looks so good and chunky (in a good way).
That is the other thing I was going to ask! Yes, he may very well simply have his season's crossed. They blow fur and look horrible and eat a LOT less in the summer. They can loose up to 40% of their body weight even. Granted yours are on a raw transition and are 'gaining' weight so this will not be so drastic this season, but it will seem drastic next.
Weights
Rebel - 1lb 9.4 ozs (only a 0.6oz loss from 1/29-NOT a big deal!) Riot - 2lb 0.4 ozs (3.2oz loss – More substantial here, right at 10% loss, but over almost two weeks. Keep a close eye, but it might be something as simply as season mix up.) Arbor - 1lb 3.7 ozs (not sure on prior weight, but good baseline) Tundra - 1lb 6.8 ozs (up 4.5oz - Another gain – no surprise here!)
If a whole prey meal takes up two meal spots does that count as two meals or one when talking about percentages? I have rat and guinea pigs which may take up more than one meal spot for the whole meal. Figuring out the percentage for organs and heart.
If it takes up two meals, you subtract that many meals to your total week. So you have to 'plan' for 12 meals and get %s on that many instead of 14. Let me know if that doesn't make sense and I can give you an example. Also, if let's say the guinea pig is large enough to split into two, then it still counts as two whole meals, even though you might only be feeding heart with one half. They are still getting the correct ratios from those two meals.
Alright I have planned out my meals in meal form since sometimes it takes them more than one day to finish a meal. I wanted to make sure that my percentages are correct. I have 8 oz meals planned. The guinea pig and rat are more than that, depending on the size of the rat and it takes them a little longer to get through them. 12 ozs of rat is taking them a little over a day to get through. So what I did was calculated how much organs and heart they would need with out the rat, guinea pig, mice and smelt which I think is the way to do it. So my math is 14 meals at 8 ozs a meal is 112 ozs, 10% of heart would be 11.2 ozs. An 8 oz meal of heart leaves 3.2 ozs which I just upped to 4 ozs (of beef tongue) for a easy math. Then 10% organs half of which is liver. So 5% liver is 5.6 ozs and 5.6 oz organs. I did one meal of 3.5 oz liver and 3.5 oz kidney. Which leaves the half heart/half organ meal as 2.1 oz liver, 1 oz brain and 1 oz kidney. I also added raw egg to the organ meal to make it a complete 8 ozs.
That math IS correct if you are not feeding whole meals. So based off this you have 4 meals, lets say of whole pray which is 100% balanced. (I am thinking 1 whole day, 2 meals, for rat and another for GP). So that means you now have 10 meals of 8oz each, making your total now 80oz (NOT including the WP meals of course). So, you need 10% heart (10% of 80 is 8oz heart), 5% liver (so using same math, 4 oz liver) and 5% other organ (again 4 oz), 50-60% edible bone (so 40-48oz), and then 15-30% muscle meat (12-24oz). You see how it is only a little more (ie 4oz in stead of 5.6oz of liver), but in the long run it will make their meals NOT balanced. It is okay to round, nothing in the wild is perfect either. So if you for example just have 1 WP meal, it makes the liver 5.2oz (with your 8 oz a meal model) instead of 5.6, if you rounded to 5.5 in either case it wouldn't hurt anything really.
The past weeks meals for Tundra and Arbor. LOTS of variety and everything looks okay as far as balance, just make sure your math is correct in the end.
Riot is also eating again but I had to put him back on soup to get him to eat. But he has eaten about 4 ozs yesterday. I still haven't been able to get any blood from him, I tried the tail and the pad again and nothing. I don't even get a drop out of pads. But already his hips seem less prominent.
Glad about the weight, possible, gain. Weird that you are having such a hard time with getting blood. Did you try warming the area? I am not familiar with drawing it from ferts, only what I read here, but with babies for example you warm the heal to get circulation going and it makes it blead better.
Rebel is still on soup too (ground pork with water added) and she's choking on any sliver or pieces. I don't know why? I gave them all some egg the other because they are all hacking! Fur in the rat and mice must have done it to Tundra and Arbor. Arbor did not like the egg, she kept try to grab it and stash it and got really mad when she couldn't stash it. I found a new stashing place too which is hard for me to get too so I'm going to try and block it off. I'm starting to get worried about bugs... now that it's getting warmer.
Yeah, I am not thrilled with stashes. I have found too many REALLY yucky, stinky spots. I don't let mine do it. Mean mom here! The mice should not have caused the hacking. It could be the warm weather causing them to shed and increase the grooming and what not. Keep giving them an egg or two a week. Arbor will learn to like it like she has the mice. Does she like oil, you might mix a bit of that in the egg to entice her. Also, mixing heart or liver, something bloody will trick them into eating the eggs sometimes.
Sorry lots of information. I'm hoping that after this meal planning that I can start to focus more on Rebel and Riot's but I want to make sure that my meal planning is working that way I'll have that down.
Your fine! I was that way with my switch too! I need a place to go back and read and see what I've done and whatnot! I used it as a journal piratically haha
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Post by Desiree on Feb 11, 2015 19:44:44 GMT -5
My hedgehogs are only partially raw, they still get kibble to supplement their diet since we know so little about their natural diet. But they get as much raw food as I can give them including bugs and raw meat, they are gonna start eating the frog legs and chicks too.
So I made some more grinds for Riot and Rebel. Some elk, some beef, some rabbit and some chicken. I balanced the meals with organs and heart to make it easier for now. Riot is eating some chunks of chicken I have put in. They are about 1/4 wide and an inch or so long. He likes them longer. Rebel is still on slivers. She is fighting eating so much! I have to hold her in my lap and today I had to spoon feed her to get her to eat at lunch. I feed her four times a day now I'm wondering if this is too much. How much is good snack for in between their standard feeding times?
Arbor weighed 14 ozs when we brought her home two weeks ago so a really good weight gain for her. She is feisty around food. I picked her up the other day not knowing she had food in her mouth and she screeched and hissed. I let her calm down before I put her down but it was funny to see.
Ack! I thought I did everything okay with my meal planning. Okay, so I have 20 meals planned for ten days. Smelt takes up one meal spot, mice takes up one meal spot, rat takes up two meal spots and guinea pig takes up two meals spots. That takes up 6 spots. This will mean that I do my planning based on 14 meals of 8 ozs?
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Post by Desiree on Feb 12, 2015 0:26:29 GMT -5
I'm getting some tattoo work done on my sleeve tomorrow so weights may be late or non-existent depending on how I feel.
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Post by Desiree on Feb 13, 2015 12:05:31 GMT -5
Weights Rebel - 1lb 7.9 ozs (small loss here, not worried, she is very active and playful) Riot - 2lbs 3.7 ozs (thank the baby jesus! I'm so glad he put on weight) Arbor - 1lb 6.5 ozs (I thought she was going to over take Rebel, she might by next week) Tundra - 1lb 9.9 ozs (He is thick! All muscle with a baby belly!) Also here is the work I got done yesterday! We are filling in color now, so the waves and cherry blossoms are new.
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Post by Desiree on Feb 13, 2015 14:21:29 GMT -5
I have weird ferrets. Tubdra and Arbor ate their smelt like it was best thing on the planet. Takes them days to finish guinea pig, rat and mice but smelt and frog legs they love. Go figure.
What would be a good fish to offer my soup babies? Just a once a week for some change in scenery.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 12:02:20 GMT -5
My hedgehogs are only partially raw, they still get kibble to supplement their diet since we know so little about their natural diet. But they get as much raw food as I can give them including bugs and raw meat, they are gonna start eating the frog legs and chicks too.
That is so interesting! My roommate back in the day had a hedgie and is was the crankiest thing. That is really the one experience I have with them. They sound like my tortoises in that we know very little about how they are in the wild and so our pets are just basically educated guesses on what they need. It is so interesting. :0) So I made some more grinds for Riot and Rebel. Some elk, some beef, some rabbit and some chicken. I balanced the meals with organs and heart to make it easier for now. Riot is eating some chunks of chicken I have put in. They are about 1/4 wide and an inch or so long. He likes them longer. Rebel is still on slivers. She is fighting eating so much! I have to hold her in my lap and today I had to spoon feed her to get her to eat at lunch. I feed her four times a day now I'm wondering if this is too much. How much is good snack for in between their standard feeding times?
The theory behind feeding raw is they should be able to eat whenever they want. So, I don't think there really is a too much. Yes we have obese ferrets, but it is usually due to an illness or medication side effect. However, feeding them 4 times a day isn't convenient either. I would try to get her to eat MORE during these feedings so she can go longer without needing food. Great variety in your grinds though! Arbor weighed 14 ozs when we brought her home two weeks ago so a really good weight gain for her. She is feisty around food. I picked her up the other day not knowing she had food in her mouth and she screeched and hissed. I let her calm down before I put her down but it was funny to see.
Wow! Arbor is getting so big. They grow so fast, don't they. My little girl was really weird about food at first. It was like she had to fight for her meals, it was kinda sad. She still fights for the good food, but now it's just cause the boys are such hogs she has to go for the good stuff and run! haha I usually sneak her into the feeding den first if the boys are sleeping. Ack! I thought I did everything okay with my meal planning. Okay, so I have 20 meals planned for ten days. Smelt takes up one meal spot, mice takes up one meal spot, rat takes up two meal spots and guinea pig takes up two meals spots. That takes up 6 spots. This will mean that I do my planning based on 14 meals of 8 ozs?
Yep, your are correct with the 14 meals. :0) Rebel - 1lb 7.9 ozs (small loss here, not worried, she is very active and playful) Riot - 2lbs 3.7 ozs (thank the baby jesus! I'm so glad he put on weight) Yay!!! Arbor - 1lb 6.5 ozs (I thought she was going to over take Rebel, she might by next week) Tundra - 1lb 9.9 ozs (He is thick! All muscle with a baby belly!) (giggle)
Weights look good! Sometimes when it warms up they can loose a bit, so I agree that as long as Miss Rebel is active and playful a little weight loss is normal during this transition. I have weird ferrets. Tubdra and Arbor ate their smelt like it was best thing on the planet. Takes them days to finish guinea pig, rat and mice but smelt and frog legs they love. Go figure.
Haha Smelt is so gross and I can imagine frog legs don't smell any better. Weirdo ferts. What would be a good fish to offer my soup babies? Just a once a week for some change in scenery.
I would choose something with less smell. Usually it is the smell that detracts them (hence the fact the other two are REALLY weird!) so maybe salmon or tilapia. Some even feed shrimp. I honestly could not get mine to eat fish. They like fish oil but nope to the fish.
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Post by Desiree on Feb 15, 2015 12:22:55 GMT -5
Maybe I'll try salmon. My fiancee adores salmon, I like it too. So we can split it. I'll start small just to see if they will eat it.
Rebel is not liking the chunks, once she gets one, she spits it out and then thinks she is done eating. So I have to convince her to eat again. Right now I feed her on my lap and doesn't really eat on the ground. She does eat off the plate though, I just have to be holding it. Yes, four times a day is frustrating. I do have help though, my fiancee and my sister are always willing to feed her.
Weird little tid bit and maybe this will help. Rebel and Riot will both eat stashed food. They will hunt down those jerkified pieces and eat them and they don't care how big they are!! They are, often times, Tundra and Arbor sized pieces. I saw Arbor and Riot fighting over a jerkified guinea pig foot. (Arbor won, fiesty minx!) But I'm fairly certain he would have eaten it. So I know they will eat big pieces!! And tough and hard to chew pieces. How the heck do I translate that over to eating meals that way?
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Post by Desiree on Feb 18, 2015 13:10:18 GMT -5
Sorry I haven't updated in a while. My sister moved back in, I have had a lot of school work and we had a friend leave to take care of his sick mom while his wife stayed behind so she has been kind of a wreck without him.
However! Success, I got Rebel to eat by herself this morning. She was actually forced too as I got called into work and did not have time to baby her. She did very well, or at least what I saw went very well. So her and Riot are now eating on their own. The next hurdle is to get her to eat without me putting her in front of food. For some reason, she won't eat food on her own, she won't seek it out, (unless it's stashed deliciousness) so that'll be my next step.
Not sure if there is a solution to this but because the terror twins eat anything, I cannot leave the soup out and available at all times. So this means feeding Rebel and Riot 3 to 4 times a day. They are free roam during the day in their area which consists of two bedrooms, a bathroom and pantry. We only put them up at night because our dogs sleep with us which means there is food available to them at night since they are separated in the cage. Riot will eat at night, I have not seen Rebel eat at night. She was separated from Riot for a little bit because she went back on soup, now that they are both back on soup, they can be together again. (also I think the separation and her getting soup and Riot having to eat chunks caused him not to eat because he's a butt and also missed his friend). I wish there was a place to put the food that Rebel and Riot could get to that the kits cannot get too. (Kits! Haha, they are both gigantic!)
I didn't added slivers to their meal this morning because I was running late as it was.
I might be absent in the next few days. I'm volunteering at a dig this weekend and will be working at my job, volunteering and going to school.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 22:55:59 GMT -5
No problem, I have been super busy too. I have time tomorrow to sit down and reply to all!
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