|
Post by Desiree on Jan 18, 2015 23:06:52 GMT -5
Rebel and Riot's Weekly Menu
Mon Am – Chicken Wings - BI Mon Pm – Quail - BI
Tue Am - Beef Heart (3oz)– M/H Tue Pm – CGH - BI
Wed Am – Pork - M Wed Pm – Chicken Wings -BI
Thu Am - 1/2 beef heart, ¼ pork liver 1/8 pork brain 1/8 pork kindey (1oz, 1oz, .5 oz .5 oz) – O/H Thu PM – CGH - BI
Fri Am – Duck - M Fri Pm – Quail - BI
Sat Am – Beef - M Sat Pm – Quail – BI
Sun Am – CGH – BI Sun Pm – 1/2 Chicken liver 1/2 beef kidney (1.5oz, 1.5oz) – O
I'm going to stop by the butcher tomorrow to see if they have pig heart, they aren't liking the beef heart to much.
Tundra's menu
Mon Am – Chicken Wings - BI Mon Pm – Quail- BI
Tue Am - Beef Heart (3 oz)– M/H Tue Pm – CGH - BI
Wed Am – Pork - M Wed Pm – Frog Legs -BI
Thu Am - 1/2 beef tongue, ¼ pork liver 1/8 pork brain 1/8 pork kindey (1oz, 1oz, .5 oz .5 oz) – O/H(Taurine source) Thu PM – Pheasant - BI
Fri Am – Duck - M Fri Pm – Smelt - BI
Sat Am – Beef - M Sat Pm – Mice – WP
Sun Am – CGH – BI Sun Pm – 1/2 Chicken liver 1/2 beef kidney (1oz, 1oz) – O
Tundra is eating about 6 ounces a day. He eats at varying times. With my one whole prey meal my heart need went from 4.2 ounces to 3.9 ounces, liver and other organs went from 2.1 ounces to 1.95 ounces. I think I did the math correctly on this. I hope. Also adjusted for Riot and Rebel's menu so they aren't getting too much liver.
Is liver the only organ they can OD on? I know extra heart isn't bad for them.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 12:07:06 GMT -5
Your math seems right on everything adjusting for the WP meal. Luckily it doesn't make to big a difference. And, as far as I know, liver is the only organ they can overdose on. The only 'issue' to remember is organs, or any kind, are bloody and therefore make dark, runny stools which can cause prolapse and dehydration if prolonged. Sorry if I repeat myself, I feel like I have said this before but it might have been in my other switches! Better to hear it again than not at all. :0)
How is little Tundra doing on his BI meals? How big are the pieces?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 12:16:06 GMT -5
I would love to feed all of them whole prey (for just a few meals it gets pricey!) I just don't know if they will be up for it but I willing to give it a shot for sure! I'm sure Tundra will take it no problem.
The younger ones do seam to take change better. Silly buggers. I don't feed WP mice often either because of the expense. I get them a few live hoppers as treats once in a while. Two of mine are hunters and enjoy the enrichment, but the other makes the mice their friend o_0
Last night they pretty much snubbed the beef I mixed with their quail. Out of four ounces they ate an ounce or so together. This morning I gave them three ounces of food, one ounce beef, one ounce soup and one ounce water. Only a bite is left!! And they ate all the chunks/slivers. They were about two inches long and 1/8 inch thick and 1/4 inch wide! I put about five in the food.
Great start! One thing to remember about ferrets is they are lazy beasts. If you put soupy in front of them and a chicken thigh, they will go for the soupy because it is familiar and easier to eat. hehe So, exactly what you are doing is perfect. Add more and more bigger chunks with less and less water each meal. If they don't 'like' a certain mixture, back off a bit to what you were feeding the meal before and work them up just a tad slower. You are basically tricking them into eating these bigger chunks or new protein.
They need an egg today, they were hacking a little last night, so I'll mix some egg with beef for lunch, a small two ounce meal and then the same soup and beef for dinner just a little less soup.
Egg for hacking, perfect. Same meal with less soupy, as stated above, perfect. What do you need me for again? haha
Tundra had pork for breakfast and he loved it. Also the pork riblets I got will have to be muscle meats I could barely break the bone with a hammer and cleaver. He will have chicken wings for lunch and dinner.
That is a good indication that they are too much for fert, if a hammer can't crush them haha But glad he is enjoying pork! Gizzards is also a great MM you can feed to help build jaw strength. One he get's a little size to him, he will be crunching through bones like nothing! (dance)
|
|
|
Post by Desiree on Jan 20, 2015 12:32:23 GMT -5
Tundra's bone in (or any meal) are about 1 inch cube chunks. He will snub any bone that is too big for him but for the most part he eats a decent amount.
I ordered rat, mice, rabbit, and day old chicks for the ferts (and my hedgehogs if they want some) so I can add that to Tundra's rotation once they get in and hopefully I can add it to the old ferts menu as well.
Heart went better this morning that I anticipated, except that I dumped some in their cage while trying to keep them from jumping out. I made it pretty soupy because they don't like it a lot. Tundra ate his portion like a champ of course.
Riot is eating chunks very well. Rebel on the other hand still needs to be held in order to eat them. I can do this most of the time which is fine, but I can't always hand feed her during lunch and she's insulinomic so I'm worried about her not eating for those twelve hours. (When I was on vaca and the boy was feeding them, I ground everything so that it was always soupy)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 16:15:27 GMT -5
Tundra's bone in (or any meal) are about 1 inch cube chunks. He will snub any bone that is too big for him but for the most part he eats a decent amount.
That is actually pretty decent chunks for such a lil guy! You can try, if you are not already, smashing up the bones with a hammer or something exposing that yummy marrow. Just keep that up until his jaw strength is built.
I ordered rat, mice, rabbit, and day old chicks for the ferts (and my hedgehogs if they want some) so I can add that to Tundra's rotation once they get in and hopefully I can add it to the old ferts menu as well.
Those are all great WP to feed. Just in case you don't know, day old chicks are considered more of a treat. The calcium content in them isn't high enough to be considered a nutritious enough meal to be a very big staple in their menu, but it is still a nice variety. Also, some of the bigger weight baring bones in the rabbit (depending on the size of the rabbit) might be too big for them to eat. You might keep that in mind if you get runnier poops after a rabbit meal.
Heart went better this morning that I anticipated, except that I dumped some in their cage while trying to keep them from jumping out. I made it pretty soupy because they don't like it a lot. Tundra ate his portion like a champ of course.
Dont'cha hate when you mess up their clean bedding with blood spills. haha That is one of the reasons I like the feeding den and hanging meals so much, very little issue with that. Glad they are liking the hearts though. Each time, try to add less and less water, before you know it you will be feeding them hearts whole! The smaller ones at least...
Riot is eating chunks very well. Rebel on the other hand still needs to be held in order to eat them. I can do this most of the time which is fine, but I can't always hand feed her during lunch and she's insulinomic so I'm worried about her not eating for those twelve hours. (When I was on vaca and the boy was feeding them, I ground everything so that it was always soupy)
Hand feeding tends to be an issue sometimes. I think they get confident with it and more secure. Best thing, like any transition, is to do it slowly with babies steps. Next time you 'hand feed' try switching to a spoon half way through. Then when she is eating off spoon all the time, try lowering the spoon to the floor. Once she eats it off the spoon on the floor, try bringing the spoon into the bowl. The hope is to show her 'hey, look! There's lots more in the bowl and I don't have to stop and wait for mommy to fill up!' Then eventually moving the bowl into the cage will happen. I understand your concern for wanting to make sure she eats often enough and because your willing, baby steps to getting her more independent is best.
Have you tried a feeding den? In the wild ferts feel more secure eating in a den like situation. This way that pesky scavenger is less likely to find their treat and also they are hidden away from predators. I find it much cleaner too! A low sided plate or bowl also gives them better visibility to watch for these 'issues.' I have gotten to the point where I just toss in or hang their meals instead of even dirtying up a plate. I just remove excess meats, wipe out their den and add more.
|
|
|
Post by Desiree on Jan 20, 2015 23:28:09 GMT -5
I have a den in the cage and outside it. They are free roam during the day and I just move the food to their food spot in and out of the cage and have a den next to it. Rebel uses the bigger free roam den to stash her toys but not her food. (She's my stasher) and now she is using the one in the cage as a litter box. I don't know what is going on but I think the new cage really stressed her out.
Rebel is now on Lupron as well, poor baby has adrenal and insu. Although her only adrenal symptom is the fact that she is 6 and a swollen vulva. Both Riot and Rebel got their shots today so they are extra sleepy! They barely ate but I made Rebel eat even though she hardcore fought me on it. They both stashed a lot away that I know they will probably munch on later.
CGH went very well with Tundra today too. He dived right in. Riot had some trouble with some of the bone and gagged a little but he's okay and learning how to not choke. Rebel chews bone very well but will avoid it on her own.
Pork tomorrow should be a good perk for them. They really like it.
|
|
|
Post by Desiree on Jan 22, 2015 12:28:08 GMT -5
Ugh! I messed up my menu and gave them bone in this morning. I'll give them their organs tonight. (headwall) I started school this week and apparently it messed up everything in my head. Hopefully Rebel starts eating again soon. She is snacking here and there but I haven't seen her actually eat except what I am scruffing and stuffing into her. She kind of licks the plate and then moves somewhere to sleep. I'm going to check her BG at lunch after a few hours.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 19:25:25 GMT -5
Poor Rebel :/ Good thing she isn't having too many symptoms, but still. And switching up the menu is perfectly fine, needed sometimes even! If their poops are runny, you wouldn't feed a organ/heart/liver meal next anyhow even if it is on the menu. Sometimes you have to switch up the order and as long as it all balances out in the week (or even a few weeks if someone if feeling bad or something) then it is fine.
I am not super familiar with Lupron, but it wouldn't surprise me if it makes them not as hungry. Especially if you say she seems sleepy. I know we worry about our sickies when they don't eat, but as long as everything else seems okay I am sure she is fine. My tiny Ruby will eat a bite or two at meals. Always worries me, but that is just how much her tiny 1lb 2oz frame needs.
|
|
|
Post by Desiree on Jan 22, 2015 21:33:21 GMT -5
Alright well I took her BG and it was at 34 after four hours from eating. I fed her some soupy chicken and she ate 2 ozs and a half hour from then and it was 36, then I took it in another hour and it had dropped to 28?? I made her eat again and she finished the rest of the 4 ozs. More dinner is thawing now for her (and the boys). I'm going to feed her soupy meal until I feel like her BG is back up so that she eats enough and will eat while I'm at work this weekend. Friday is the only day I can't feed her three times but there is a 6 hour break on Saturday for her while I work my night shift. I'm also going to separate my double CN so that the boys don't eat her food. Is there anything I can give her to help get her BG back up? I'm not sure if my meter is correct any way. I went into the room and she played with me and Tundra and was seemingly active so I feel like her mood is not reflective of the BG monitor.
On another note and better one, Riot is eating chunks like a pro. I don't know if it's because him and Tundra are now sharing a plate and he sees little man just dive in but he's eating more and better now too. Tundra has actually slowed a little bit, he eats more in the cage over night than he does throughout the day. Maybe because he's playing more?? Not sure on that one but he's definitely eating.
Rebel weighs 1lb 8.6 ozs (Vet said she weighed 965 grams which is over two pounds so not sure why there is a huge discrepancy, my scale says closer to 700 grams)
Riot weighs 2lbs 3.8 ozs (Vet said he weighed 1068 grams which is 2lbs 5 ozs, so not that far off for him)
Tundra weighs 14.1 ozs, up four ounces!
I can't remember, do I need to post dangly pictures every week?
Poops have been perfectly formed, nice, dark (not black) and a tad bit dry because of the extra bone in meal today.
Introducing Tundra went perfectly. Sometimes I think Riot is a little rough with him but I think he's a little rough with Rebel too. Not sure if it's dominance, or adrenal aggression but he likes to tackled and hold them down and bite their ears. However, Tundra still runs to him to play so I don't think there is any fear involved.
|
|
|
Post by Desiree on Jan 24, 2015 14:42:30 GMT -5
Rebel's BG last night was 44 so yay! We are forcing her to eat every three hours. Just chicken, water and bone meal powder right now. I will give her organs too since I served those soupy anyway. I also started a chart to more accurately keep track of when she gets her meds. We are doing between the hours of 8 and 9 am/pm. I don't feed her at night though, for the 8 hours or so that I sleep, is this okay? She doesn't really get up at night and tends to sleep through it. Riot and Tundra are doing well, eating wise at least. Riot is now eating the same size chunks that Tundra is. I think Tundra is teaching him good food manners. Little Tundra grabs the biggest chunks and runs off to eat them, takes him like five minutes for each piece but he does very well with bone and all. Here is a picture of the food that Tundra and Riot share. I basically just wacked a CGH with a cleaver and threw it on a plate. I'm not even adding water anymore. Just the juices from the hen.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 18:32:18 GMT -5
I am trying to familiarize myself with Insulinoma as much as possible, but isn't a BG lower than 80-90 bad?? Is this what your meter reads as normal? Just checking, sorry my own ignorance. As far as better things to feed, from what I understand there isn't anything specific, but I did ask the other mentors just in case. Will get back to you there. I am SURE you have read it, but here is a great thread: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/2702Weights look good and you can just do pics every other week or so. It is mostly at the beginning stages that we worry about weights. Those are nice big chunks, so good job on Riot and Tundra. Are you mostly sticking to soupy because that is what Rebel will eat? And as far as going the full 8 hours, it might be a bit long for a baby with BG issues. Will she eat if there is something offered or only hand fed? How does she seem in the morning? Have you done a BG first thing in am to see if she is going too long. Typically I would say every 4-5 hours is better to eat, but she may be gettin up on her own if there is something to eat. Sounds like they love each other! Intros seem to be easier with babies, who can resist. hehe
|
|
|
Post by Desiree on Jan 26, 2015 21:12:42 GMT -5
I am making soupy because she will eat it on her own. I made her some gizzards today which she also ate on her own. They were very small. I have my sister who can help out on days that I can't be home to help feed her. For the times I'm not home, she is in her cage, the top portion of a CN, she has been eating but not a lot and I don't know how often.
Yes below 80-90 is bad but anything higher than before makes me happy right now. She may also always have a lower BG and used to it at that level.
She ate some fleece today. (headwall) So she is on poop watch. She normally passes it. (Not the first time she has eaten fleece) I'm not sure why, she used to do it but then stopped. I took away the loose fleece in any case. I'll let you know when she passes it. I haven't taken a morning BG yet. I need more test strips.
Tomorrow is food prep day so I will post a menu tomorrow night.
Rebel ate a few pieces of chunks today but I had to hold her and get her started. So I'm thinking soup in the cage when I can't be around and chunks for the times I can feed her. If that works for you?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 0:47:13 GMT -5
If you can get her to eat bigger chunks, that is most certainly the goal :0) the soup can lady okay for 6 or so hours. I'd definitely give her access to it at all times.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 2:09:05 GMT -5
So a couple things that were mentioned as I am learning too, but has your meter been tested alongside one at the vets. I ask because your readings are just SO low. Yes, the body can learn to adjust to a low BG but it's not a good thing. It was mentioned that maybe doing a pred dose three times a day might help stabilize it or maybe just upping it, but this really needs to be a vets call. I'd be hesitant to raise it until you make sure your meter is calibrated and she is truly having such low BG readings. With readings like your getting I think a vet visit is in order to get her BG checked and get your meter calibrated. And also, they said there isn't one food that is better than another per say to keep BG up. It's all about making sure she's eating often which I know you know.
|
|
|
Post by Desiree on Jan 27, 2015 10:11:03 GMT -5
i have not checked my monitor with my vets. My first readings for her after her very first vet visit were in the 80's. This is right after she started taking her pred and after she ate.
I'm kinda kicking myself because I was just at the vets for their Lupron and Rebels pred prescription but since she had been acting normal neither the vet nor I were worried about her BG. Now I wish I had. My vet is an hour away so I try to combine appts and such.
|
|