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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 16:31:34 GMT -5
Thank you very much for this! I I read through all and also saved it to my computer too. I am so willing to learn and get more knowledge about this! August is neutred. I am very very happy because- as unbelievable as it sounds- August had actually eaten all of the soup. He had licked the plate completely clean. Because he seemed hungry, I just gave him more of the soup, another 3.40 oz (water diluted because it was too thick). The soup actually smelled fresh and looked good in the refrigerator and he immediately started licking it. He has never before eaten so much soup in one day. It's like he knows that a thread about him has been done at HFF and he wants to give his best Or is it the weather getting colder too. He's stools looked really good today too because of the soup. Very good shape and color and the soup gets him well hydrated too. Weird that yesterday after his frog meal his stools looked like black ink. He oftenly has some foam and mucus in his stools. How frequently can I give him fish? I have baltic herrings at the freezer and planned to thaw and give him some tomorrow morning. But he had herrings already on Monday. Is it OK to give fish two times a week? Today was very special day because I visited a ferret breeder from whom I am getting my second ferret baby boy in two weeks!! He is absolutely adorable. And August can't wait to finally have someone to play with.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 16:35:21 GMT -5
We're almost ready to get into the menu planning, but one more thing I need to know is what ratio of whole prey to frankenprey do you plan to feed? Mostly frankenprey with just a few meals of whole prey, or mostly whole prey with just a few meals of frankenprey? Mostly frankenprey, at least for now because I don't have enough access to whole pray right now.
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Post by gfountain on Sept 5, 2014 16:41:14 GMT -5
Oh, a new baby! That's so exciting!! I'll be waiting for pictures Does he have a name yet? It's great that he's eating so well! It's exciting when you know they're loving their food AND are eating for good health. Foamy and mucousy stools are usually an indication that something has not digested properly. Black stools either mean he's eaten a blood-rich meal (like organs or hearts) or he's having internal bleeding. But since it was just after the frog, I'd say it came from the frog organs. Fish is fine to feed a couple of times a week, but again, if it's freshly caught it should be frozen first. And since you managed to wade through all that information, I'm going to go ahead and send the rest. It's more specific to the actual feeding. Again, don't try to learn it all at once. We'll go over everything until you understand and feel confident planning your babies' menu by yourself. Is your new baby already eating raw also, or is he on kibble? How old will he be when you get him? Babies are soooo much fun!! I'm probably going to get 'baby fever' again! (dance)
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Post by gfountain on Sept 5, 2014 16:48:40 GMT -5
WHOLE PREY
Whole prey meals are completely balanced. The main thing to remember with whole prey is VARIETY - at least 3 different prey animals each week. Adult prey animals are a more complete nutritional package than juveniles, so you want to offer mostly adult prey. Juvenile prey is not considered a good source of bone, because their own bones have not finished developing. Of course, as with everything, you want variety, so offering juveniles once in a while is a good idea.
Examples of whole prey: mice, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits, frogs, lizards, quail, chickens, other birds
Wild whole prey should be frozen before serving to kill any parasites. The length of time recommended for freezing varies from 3 days to 2 weeks, depending on who you ask. I personally freeze for at least 1 week before I will feed it.
FRANKENPREY
The goal with frankenprey is to mimic what a ferret would eat in the wild, with the correct balance of organs, muscle meats, and bones, using foods that you can find at your grocery store. Each part of a prey animal has a unique combination of vitamins and minerals that are essential to the health of your ferret. A long term imbalance in their diet can and will cause serious health issues, so it is critical that you plan your meals in advance to ensure that your little friends get the nutrition they need for a long and happy life.
When feeding frankenprey, there are 4 main PARTS of an animal that we need to feed to meet the diet requirements: muscle meat, heart, organs,and edible bones. Remember that at least 3 proteins are required for complete nutrition. Those 3 proteins should be in the meaty part of the diet, not in the organs. However, you should also have a good variety of sources for organs, not all chicken organs, or all beef organs.
*Muscle meat is fairly self-explanatory. It is any kind of meat that is NOT an organ, including hearts and gizzards. When discussing muscle meat, however, we are typically referring to skeletal muscle.
*While heart IS a muscle meat, it is a cardiac muscle rather than a skeletal muscle, and it is in a category by itself because it is a vital source of taurine in a raw diet.
*Nutritional organs are considered to be any part of the body that SECRETES a hormone. Examples are liver, kidney, thymus, pancreas, reproductive organs, lungs, brains. Liver is the easiest organ to find and should make up at least half of the organ requirement. Other organs can be very difficult to find except directly from a butcher, cultural markets, or online sources. Neither hearts nor gizzards are organs. This is a very common misconception, so be aware of it when shopping for organs. Many meat department personnel and butchers commonly call hearts and gizzards organs, but they are NOT. They are muscle meats, AND heart is a separate requirement in a ferret’s diet (see above).
*Edible bone is any bone small enough for a ferret to eat. Generally, these are non-weight bearing bones of poultry or small animals. Because we do not feed a bare bone, but rather one with plenty of meat attached, we sort of combine this category with muscle meat and call it “edible bone-in meat”. When I (or others) refer to “bone-in”, this is what we are talking about. If we refer to “muscle meat”, we mean meat that has no bone included (chicken breast, beef roast, etc.) Examples of edible bone-in meats are poultry wings, necks, backs, ribs, sometimes thighs, whole quail, whole Cornish game hen, rabbit, mouse, guinea pig. Sometimes you can find smallish bones from a larger animal that are small enough for a ferret to eat. One example is pork button bones, or pork riblets. Some of those bones are too dense, but occasionally you can find some small enough. Although the bone requirement is only 10-15% of the total diet (remember that we use the poops to determine the bone content), because the bone is attached to muscle meat, edible bone-in meat makes up the majority of a ferret’s diet. It is critical that your fuzzy learn to eat and enjoy bones, for healthy teeth as well as to meet the calcium requirements.
Now, moving on to the basic frankenprey menu:
Raw fed ferrets are generally fed twice a day, 12 hours apart, making a total of 14 meals per week. The basic weekly menu should include:
1 ½ meals of heart (~10% of the total diet) 1 ½ meals of organ, at least half of which must be liver (~5% liver, 5% other organ) 7-9 meals of edible bone-in meat (~50-60%) 2-4 meals of muscle meat with no bone (~15-30%)
When building your menu, you want to consider the effect a particular meal will have on the poops. For example, remember that blood rich meals (liver, other organs, hearts) cause looser poops, so to combat that issue, you want to feed at least one bone-in meal between them. It is best to spread organ/heart meals out as much as possible throughout the week.
This is easier than it looks at first glance. Below is a sample menu (in the format I will want yours to be, when we get to the menu making part, once your ferret is eating all kinds of yummy stuff).
Sun AM: organ meal (½ liver, ½ other organ) Sun PM: edible bone-in meat
Mon AM: edible bone-in meat (or muscle) Mon PM: edible bone-in meat
Tues AM: heart Tues PM: edible bone-in meat
Wed AM: muscle meat Wed PM: edible bone-in meat
Thur AM: heart and organ (½ liver, ½ other organ) Thur PM: edible bone-in meat
Fri AM: edible bone-in meat (or muscle) Fri PM: edible bone-in meat
Sat AM: muscle meat Sat PM: edible bone-in meat
You will take this basic menu and rearrange it to suit your needs, making sure to include at least 3 different proteins, and adjusting the bone-in meals depending on the poops. It is important to be flexible with your feedings. If you notice runny poops and have hearts planned for that meal, you can give a bone-in meal instead, and save the hearts for the following meal if their poops have firmed up. Don’t worry about not having something defrosted if you have to make a last minute change. Ferrets are perfectly content with ‘meat-sicles’. Some ferrets will require the full 9 meals of bone-in, while others only need 7, and this can vary from week to week depending on different factors. It won’t take long for you to figure out what YOUR ferrets need.
The easiest way to prepare meals is to have your meat separated into serving size portions (once you learn the correct amount for your business) in your freezer. Once you have your menu planned, it’s easy to grab one bag or container per meal. When you serve one meal, you can put the next meal into the refrigerator to thaw. It’s good to keep an extra bag or container of bone-in and muscle meat available in case you need to make a substitution, or your fuzzies beg for a snack.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 12:55:23 GMT -5
August had an small examination today at the vet's office and was declared healthy. Still our vet said she wants to see August's urine sample to see why he has those leakages while sleeping. Since August refused to pee while we were there, we have to go back someday.
In the morning August ate 1.76 oz baltic herrings ( 2 whole herrings) and as dinner I served him 2.46 oz quail (half of one quail- without organs)
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Post by gfountain on Sept 7, 2014 8:10:10 GMT -5
Oh, I'm glad he's healthy! Did she have any ideas about his leaking urine? I'm looking into that as well, so hopefully we can figure out why it's happening.
He's eating really well... over 4 oz in a day. What about the quail bones? Did he eat those without any trouble?
OK, here's what I want you to do... figure out a goal menu, what you want him to eat in a week (not just what he's eating now, but you WANT him to eat), using the menu below as a guide. Fill in the blanks with something in that category that you have or can get. I put in 4 whole prey meals for now and I'll teach you how to refigure the menu with different numbers of whole prey meals but I don't have time to go into it right now.
Sun AM: organ meal (½ liver, ½ other organ): _________________ Sun PM: edible bone-in meat: __________________
Mon AM: edible bone-in meat (or muscle): __________________ Mon PM: whole prey: ______________________
Tues AM: heart Tues PM: edible bone-in meat: __________________
Wed AM: muscle meat: __________________ Wed PM: whole prey: __________________
Thur AM: whole prey: _______________ Thur PM: edible bone-in meat: __________________
Fri AM: edible bone-in meat (or muscle): __________________ Fri PM: whole prey: ___________________
Sat AM: muscle meat: ___________________ Sat PM: edible bone-in meat:___________________
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 14:00:39 GMT -5
Oh my I am so happy I am able to add quail into August's menu. He eats all the bones in quail with no leftovers!! Yesterday's dinner probably didn't count because although he had eaten the quail, he had vomited out almost everthing. I think maybe it's because it was his first time eating quail and his stomack just wasn't used to it. I tried again today and offered him 1 quail leg (0.74 oz) in the morning and after it was eaten I served him 2.85 oz of quail for dinner. One leg, 1 wing and back piece with bone. I just sat down next to him watching him eat. He ate the whole back piece with the wing. This sound of the bone crackling was just like a sound of music to my ears. And no bone pieces were left over.
The vet really didn't say anything about the leaking problem. She just wants to see the urine sample to see if it shows something.
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Post by gfountain on Sept 7, 2014 14:33:58 GMT -5
Excellent news! My furrkids love quail.. they never leave a trace of it in the dish! I really think his issue with the bone in the chicken wings is just that they're too big for him right now. He's doing really well with the smaller bones. Can you get Cornish game hens over there? Those are really just little chickens and he should be able to eat all of those bones without a problem.
What did the vet say about his vomiting?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 16:33:51 GMT -5
She said I shouldn't worry unless he vomites with empty stomack ad he hasn't done that. She said if he vomites after eating it's just either eating too fast or just individual food intolerance and since he doesn't have a diarrhea with it, she thinks its nothing to worry about.
Unfortunately I don't have Cornish game hens here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 16:36:28 GMT -5
Does small fish like herrings and smelts count as whole pray?
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Post by gfountain on Sept 7, 2014 16:45:55 GMT -5
Yes, as long as they are served whole. Just make sure to freeze them if they are freshly caught. That was my thought on the vomiting also. If he really likes something, he's probably just trying to eat it too fast, silly boy
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 8:50:33 GMT -5
Went shopping today and got adult mice, goose fillet, duck fillet, beef strogonov, pig fillet, frog legs, chicken wings and necks.
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Post by gfountain on Sept 8, 2014 9:58:11 GMT -5
What a haul! What exactly do you mean by 'fillet'.. just meat, no bone? And what is beef strogonov? Here it is a pasta dish made with beef and mushrooms, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 12:49:23 GMT -5
Yes just meat without bone. I can give it to him at his muscle meat meals than he will have variety. Beef strogonov here is called just very soft quality pieces of beef. Looks like this www.shopzeus.co.uk/images/article/top_sirloin_of_beef_being_prepared.jpgVery suprised to find frogs legs at the supermarket. Now I can add another source of bone to this menu. I believe he has no problem with is since he has already eaten one whole frog before. What would you think about this menu? I would also add 2-3 quail eggs. Sun AM: organ meal (½ liver, ½ other organ): _____lamb liver, kidney and brain ____________ Sun PM: edible bone-in meat: _____frog legs_____________ (Today) Mon AM: edible bone-in meat (or muscle): ____quail with bones ______________ Mon PM: whole prey: _________mice_____________ Tues AM: heart - turkey heart Tues PM: edible bone-in meat: _____frog legs_____________ Wed AM: muscle meat: _____pork tenderloin_____________ Wed PM: whole prey: _______baltic herring or smelt___________ Thur AM: whole prey: _____mice__________ Thur PM: edible bone-in meat: _____chicken wing_____________ Fri AM: edible bone-in meat (or muscle): _____beef slivers_____________ Fri PM: whole prey: _____mice______________ Sat AM: muscle meat: _____goose meat______________ Sat PM: edible bone-in meat:______quail_____________
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Post by gfountain on Sept 8, 2014 14:14:14 GMT -5
That looks EXCELLENT! And August eats all of that except the bone in the chicken wings, right? The amount of egg recommended is the equivalent of 1 chicken egg per week. Depending on the size of the eggs, you could feed anywhere from 3-6 quail eggs per week since he loves them.
I promised to explain how to replan your menu if you add or subtract whole prey meals. It's very simple. Whole prey meals are completely balanced, so you start by subtracting the number of whole prey meals from 14 (the total number of meals in a week if you feed twice a day) to find out how many frankenprey meals you need to balance. The percentage of organ necessary is 10% (half liver, half something else), and the percentage of heart necessary is 10%. In the menu above, I added 4 whole prey meals; that leaves 10 frankenprey meals to balance. 10% of 10 is 1, so he needs only 1 meal of organs and 1 of hearts. Those are the critical numbers to determine. The rest of the meals will be bone-in or muscle depending on what he needs to keep his poops firmed. The numbers don't usually come out even when doing the percentages, but remember that raw feeding is not an exact science. Just round it to the nearest whole number and don't worry about it. If you end up needing only half a meal each of organ & heart, you can either feed them together at one meal or you can feed a whole meal of organ one week and no heart, then the next week, feed heart and not organ. Does that make sense?
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