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Post by katt on Jan 7, 2015 5:23:29 GMT -5
Checking in
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 12:55:31 GMT -5
Hello we are back! ? Hope you had a wonderful holiday! My ferrets have gotten really good with bones and chunks.I have them a lot of boney meat while I was away. It cleaned their teeth very well. And Zack is a lot less intimidated by the bone. The last couple of days I've removed the water for the girls and they said they didn't care, Zack said he did not approve and insisted on water. I don't add any egg at all anymore to the muscle meat, I still as a quail egg to liver and organ meals. I cut the liver in 4 pieces but this was to big for them all, they hardly touched it. I bought them Salmon oil, Honey said that this was what was missing from her life all this time. I made them chicken wings chunks today and yesterday. I cut the chicken wings into 4-5 chunks, the girls ate it fine. Zack balked, I cut the bigger chunks in half and added some water and a few drops of coconut oil for him to eat. I'll try to separate the meals a bit, because Zack is very slow and the girls are very ready to move forward. I'll need to make them a menu and run it by you this week. I also got the feeding den back out into action. And we are using it well for eating. (And Honey insists that we should convert it to a toilet.)
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Post by katt on Jan 14, 2015 3:21:45 GMT -5
Welcome back! (dance) Rotten Honey! Good fuzz though on the bones. About how big are the bone chunks they are eating now?
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Post by katt on Jan 18, 2015 23:15:39 GMT -5
How is it going?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 17:01:02 GMT -5
Hello, Sorry I dropped off the radar again. I had a frantic week. I will try to be more punctual. I have been feeding the ferrets in the den, and it gave rise to a couple of issues. I don't know whether Zack is eating, or when he is eating. Or if someone just eats enough for everyone else. Some days they will eat every last bit, and then others they will barely eat half. And it's all out of my control and view. Their behaviour is the same as always, all happy and active, so it's not too much worry, but more than when I saw them all eating. I tried upping the chunk sizes like I wrote in the last post, but it didn't go as well as I thought it did. I found the stash of large chicken bits arranged neatly out of sight, nearby Miri's favourite sleeping spot. Thankfully it was right by the heaters so the chicken a dried out instead of rotting. And another stash that I believe was Honey's in her box bed. So the disappearing meat mystery was solved. So now I backed down a bit so that they eat the chunks. They ate then all up, so I'll keep making them slowly bigger. The chunks now are about 5-6cm long and 2-3 cm wide at their widest. Their other width is smaller at about 0.5-1cm, so they are a bit like ribbons. The bone bits that I have seen Zack east were about a 1cm^3 at most. And the girls have munched successfully on chicken feet fingers (toes?). I also stopped Honey from pooping in the den by putting a towel on the floor. Now they sleep there sometimes. When they sleep in it, the food disappears best. Probably because of the convenience.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 23:01:54 GMT -5
Zack's gum line above his canines is receding upwards slowly. And they are no longer red (it's red in the photo because i just brushed it) but they do bleed easily. Is there anything that I could do about this?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 23:40:06 GMT -5
For the menu, I was wondering if you could help me understand, I have trouble creating a routine. This happens because I try to introduce new meat, and also buying what is on sale, so it always changes.
I set them Wednesday to get a half heart/ half organ meal, then Saturday hearts, and Sunday livers (weekend meals being interchangeable). The rest is all bone in meat meals, except for occasional exceptions.
So the menu I made up now, changes every week. This time I have a lot of chicken, which I want to use up, and turkey. I also have some leftover duck (mainly skin and fat) that needs to go somewhere. I think I will add some to the turkey neck meals, because those are rather lean looking. The one I write here I will start from Monday, and right now we are trying veal tomorrow and then eating leftover food from previous preparations until the end of the week.
So here goes: Monday - Turkey Necks
Tuesday - chicken
Wednesday - Pork heart and kidney meal with quail egg, and chicken meal
Thursday - lamb stewing meat with either coconut oil or chicken egg yolk if they are reluctant to eat
Friday - turkey necks
Saturday - chicken hearts with quail egg, and chicken meal
Sunday - chicken livers, and chicken meal..
So this menu is a bit chicken heavy, but we usually have less of it, I've just run out of rabbit, and duck, and they seem much less keen on pork lately. I've added lamb, and they eat it, I can also try a substitute meal or 2 of halibut fish, but Zack isn't the biggest fan.
I've also tried to make one for the following week, and it still had a lot of chicken. I will also be adding duck and rabbit when I get them.
Monday - Mice, and then chicken
Tuesday - Turkey necks
Wednesday - Pork buttons, then pork heart and kidney meal with a quail egg.
Thursday - chicken
Friday - Veal mixed with chicken necks (for bone content)
Saturday - chicken meal, and chicken heart soup with quail egg.
Sunday - chicken meal, and chicken liver meal
The days where I wrote just one type of meat is just that they get the same meal for morning and evening
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Post by katt on Jan 21, 2015 15:35:34 GMT -5
Sorry I dropped off the radar again. I had a frantic week. I will try to be more punctual.No worries, it happens! I have been feeding the ferrets in the den, and it gave rise to a couple of issues. I don't know whether Zack is eating, or when he is eating. Or if someone just eats enough for everyone else. Some days they will eat every last bit, and then others they will barely eat half. And it's all out of my control and view. Their behaviour is the same as always, all happy and active, so it's not too much worry, but more than when I saw them all eating. Hmmm, well it's your call. If you feel more comfortable feeding without the den you can not use it. OR you can feed Zack one on one and let the others use the den. I tried upping the chunk sizes like I wrote in the last post, but it didn't go as well as I thought it did. I found the stash of large chicken bits arranged neatly out of sight, nearby Miri's favourite sleeping spot. Thankfully it was right by the heaters so the chicken a dried out instead of rotting. And another stash that I believe was Honey's in her box bed. So the disappearing meat mystery was solved.
So now I backed down a bit so that they eat the chunks. They ate then all up, so I'll keep making them slowly bigger.
The chunks now are about 5-6cm long and 2-3 cm wide at their widest. Their other width is smaller at about 0.5-1cm, so they are a bit like ribbons. Good sized chunks. Keep slowly increasing them. The more gradual the increase, the less likely they will notice the change. You can also resort to hand feeding with a larger bump in size, but I know we are trying to get them away from needing to be spoiled by mamma. The bone bits that I have seen Zack east were about a 1cm^3 at most. And the girls have munched successfully on chicken feet fingers (toes?). Good fuzz! (dance) They are almost there! Same goes for the bones as for the chunks - gradual increases in size. Slow and steady wins the race, but if you want to push them a bit harder/faster hand feeding always helps speed things up a bit too. I also stopped Honey from pooping in the den by putting a towel on the floor. Now they sleep there sometimes. When they sleep in it, the food disappears best. Probably because of the convenience. That's too funny! Silly little spoiled fuzz! At least Honey isn't pooping in there anymore, that's good! They are looking great!
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Post by katt on Jan 21, 2015 15:45:11 GMT -5
For the menu, I was wondering if you could help me understand, I have trouble creating a routine. This happens because I try to introduce new meat, and also buying what is on sale, so it always changes. Absolutely - that's what I'm here for after all! So try to not think of the menu as something that is set in stone. The menu is simply a framework. The reason we have people post multiple menus over the course of the switch is to practice changing the menu, making different menus, and making adjustments and substitutions where needed. The key thing is that every week needs to be balanced. Every week should include: 1.5 meals heart 1.5 meals organs (ideally half liver, half other) 7-9 bone-in meals I set them Wednesday to get a half heart/ half organ meal, then Saturday hearts, and Sunday livers (weekend meals being interchangeable). The rest is all bone in meat meals, except for occasional exceptions. Sounds perfect - see, you've got it! The only thing is watch their poops - if they are too hard/dry then they are getting too much bone. Bone-in meals should be 7-8 meals a week, so just be sure to mix in 2-4 boneless muscle meals each week to balance things out. Beef for example is a great boneless meal. So the menu I made up now, changes every week. This time I have a lot of chicken, which I want to use up, and turkey. I also have some leftover duck (mainly skin and fat) that needs to go somewhere. I think I will add some to the turkey neck meals, because those are rather lean looking. The one I write here I will start from Monday, and right now we are trying veal tomorrow and then eating leftover food from previous preparations until the end of the week.
See above - change is good! That's where the best variety comes in really. So here goes: Monday - Turkey Necks
Tuesday - chicken
Wednesday - Pork heart and kidney meal with quail egg, and chicken meal
Thursday - lamb stewing meat with either coconut oil or chicken egg yolk if they are reluctant to eat
Friday - turkey necks
Saturday - chicken hearts with quail egg, and chicken meal
Sunday - chicken livers, and chicken meal..
So this menu is a bit chicken heavy, but we usually have less of it, I've just run out of rabbit, and duck, and they seem much less keen on pork lately. I've added lamb, and they eat it, I can also try a substitute meal or 2 of halibut fish, but Zack isn't the biggest fan. I see 1.5 heart meals, 1.5 organ meals, and 4 proteins. As long as the bone is right, which based off of what you posted above it should be, then this week looks great. I've also tried to make one for the following week, and it still had a lot of chicken. I will also be adding duck and rabbit when I get them.
Monday - Mice, and then chicken
Tuesday - Turkey necks
Wednesday - Pork buttons, then pork heart and kidney meal with a quail egg.
Thursday - chicken
Friday - Veal mixed with chicken necks (for bone content)
Saturday - chicken meal, and chicken heart soup with quail egg.
Sunday - chicken meal, and chicken liver meal
The days where I wrote just one type of meat is just that they get the same meal for morning and eveningAgain, I see 1.5 heart meals, 1.5 organ meals, and a good mix of proteins. Your menus look fine. For your final graduating menu, you will need to separate it into am/pm meals and indicate which meals have bone vs no bone, but that's it. You're doing perfectly. It's totally fine if one week is chicken heavy, and the next week is duck heavy etc. because with your rotating weeks, they are still getting a lot of variety. From those 2 weeks they got: chicken, turkey, mice, veal, pork, lamb....that's 6 proteins! PLUS the eggs! And I know you have given rabbit and duck and other meats too, so their variety is awesome. I really don't see anything to change, other than making sure they get 2-4 boneless meals during the week BUT that is based off of poops. If poops look good, I'm not worried. Soft poops means they need more bones, hard/dry poops means they need less bones. Was there something in particular you are feeling unsure about for the balancing and menus? I mean it looks great, but I want to be sure that you feel comfortable with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 16:56:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback! I have a question about boneless meals. I thought that the organ, heart, and liver meals were part of the 4 boneless meals. Which would leave only 1 boneless meal of other stuff. Or is it that there is the organ, heart, and liver meals + 2-4 muscle meals? Zack behaved badly today. He decided to forgo eating the pork kidney and heart breakfast, and then got nauseated and threw up. It's his first low BG symptom usually, I gave him a lick of honey (really small drop) and fed him a chicken egg yolk (he wasn't too keen on other stuff at the time, understandably), he ate about 2/3 or half. He seemed to calm down then and the vomiting stopped. Made me late for class, but when I left he was sleeping soundly. I'll keep an eye on him that he poops and eats in the evening. But I'm 95% sure it's low BG rather than a blockage. On a better note - Honey has not thrown anything up in a while. Is there anything you could tell me about Zack's teeth from the post before?
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Post by katt on Jan 22, 2015 2:29:08 GMT -5
I have a question about boneless meals. I thought that the organ, heart, and liver meals were part of the 4 boneless meals. Which would leave only 1 boneless meal of other stuff.
Or is it that there is the organ, heart, and liver meals + 2-4 muscle meals?Yes and no. They should get 2-3 boneless muscle meals in addition to the hearts and organs. 1 week, 2 meals a day = 14 meals 1.5 meals organ 1.5 meals heart 7-9 meals bone-in 2-4 meals of boneless muscle meat This is our standard example menu outline: Monday am: edible bone in meat Monday pm: edible bone in meat (or boneless muscle meat) Tuesday am: edible bone in meat Tuesday pm: muscle meat Wednesday am: edible bone in meat Wednesday pm: heart Thursday am: edible bone in meat Thursday pm: edible bone in meat (or boneless muscle meat) Friday am: edible bone in meat Friday pm: ½ heart + ¼ liver + ¼ other organ Saturday am: edible bone in meat Saturday pm: muscle meat Sunday am: edible bone in meat Sunday pm: ½ liver + ½ other organ Zack behaved badly today. He decided to forgo eating the pork kidney and heart breakfast, and then got nauseated and threw up. It's his first low BG symptom usually, I gave him a lick of honey (really small drop) and fed him a chicken egg yolk (he wasn't too keen on other stuff at the time, understandably), he ate about 2/3 or half. He seemed to calm down then and the vomiting stopped. Made me late for class, but when I left he was sleeping soundly. I'll keep an eye on him that he poops and eats in the evening. But I'm 95% sure it's low BG rather than a blockage.
On a better note - Honey has not thrown anything up in a while. For the BG crash, it's best to just give a protein meal. Honey/karo syrup should really be reserved for when they are crashing/seizing hard enough that you can't get any food into them - they are emergency measures. BUT he was throwing up and if he won't hold his food down then that obviously creates some problems. :/ Just something that was being discussed fairly recently so I figured I'd bring it up as an FYI to keep in mind. Hopefully he's feeling better tomorrow! Is there anything you could tell me about Zack's teeth from the post before?Yes, sorry I missed that post. The bones should help a lot as he eats them more, but in the meanwhile I would suggest tooth brushing - preferably daily if you can, at least a few times a week. Oxyfresh pet gel is a popular toothpaste that has a lot of good reviews from experienced people in the ferret community. Even after he's eating full bones I would keep brushing them until his teeth are nice and clean and his gums look better. Insu is rough on them, and pred knocks out the immune system, so it's going to be harder for him to fight off stuff like bacterial gingivitis. With his issues putting him under for a cleaning is a scary thought, but have you talked to your vet about perhaps trying some antibiotics to see if they help his gums any? I forget if he's already had a round since he's had the gum issues or not. If not though, it may be worth a shot. This is the toothpaste: oxyfresh.com/pet/pet-gel-healing-cream.asp
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 15:44:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification We have been eating extremely well these last couple of days. We had lamb mixed with chicken necks which went really well, I cut the neck by the vertebrae and they devoured them. Then we had chicken drumsticks and i just cut the drumstick into 1-1.5cm wide slices across the bone so every piece had a bit of bone in it. We also ate our heart soup and liver bits (liver comes in smaller bits) both meals with a quail egg each, and the liver had a dash of salmon oil. Then yesterday we had turkey necks (as per menu ) , and this is where i specifically tried to increase the bone bits more than usual. I didn't smash them as thoroughly as usual so we had some bones the size of a distal phalanx from a person. There was one that was a bit bigger but, it remained uneaten. Anyways, they ate the bigger bones and the pieces of meat were quite big as well Today we are eating some chicken leg and thigh. Which is going amazing. I think i need to start making them uncomfortable bit size again, because they are being too nice to me by eating so well this last week. Zack has not thrown up again. I will see how he eats the organs tomorrow. I know that honey and syrup is for seizures only usually, but i tried giving him meat some chicken piece, and some dried meat (which he usually really likes), but he wouldn't take them at all,just spat them out and claw at his mouth or run away and start heaving. I gave him the egg yolk right after and egg yolk is still a protein product, so that the rise and crash of the sugar would not be so bad after, and I left him some dried meat out near him. I do try to keep the sweet stuff only as a last resort. Thank you for explaining it though, because i know that a lot of people would just give it as soon as they started seeing the low BG symptoms. Another thing I wanted to ask about. I'm taking a shelter ferret in for about a month during February. HIs name is Rapscallion. He was living with a foster parent since December because he was recovering from adrenal surgery. Now he will stay with me. He is about 4 I think. He will be caged, because he might need to go back to the shelter at some point soon and going from free roam to shelter life is a big shock, and i don't know how he will get on with my crowd yet. I was wondering how I should organize the kibble and the meat? I wanted to get him to try some meat, but keep him primarily on kibble (in case his adoptive parent wants him on kibble, or he stays at the shelter later). Is the only thing to take into account that the kibble should be separate from the meat by 2-3 hours before and after? or is there other things I should keep in mind? Mine were off kibble in less than a week and it was way too long ago, so I forgot everything.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 16:09:37 GMT -5
Another musing question is: is it natural for ferrets to like sleeping beside their meat? I know it's natural for them to go to the toilet near the food, but wouldn't it be dangerous to sleep right beside their meat stash in the wild?
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Post by katt on Jan 28, 2015 2:57:36 GMT -5
We have been eating extremely well these last couple of days. We had lamb mixed with chicken necks which went really well, I cut the neck by the vertebrae and they devoured them.
Then we had chicken drumsticks and i just cut the drumstick into 1-1.5cm wide slices across the bone so every piece had a bit of bone in it.
We also ate our heart soup and liver bits (liver comes in smaller bits) both meals with a quail egg each, and the liver had a dash of salmon oil.
Then yesterday we had turkey necks (as per menu ) , and this is where i specifically tried to increase the bone bits more than usual. I didn't smash them as thoroughly as usual so we had some bones the size of a distal phalanx from a person. There was one that was a bit bigger but, it remained uneaten. Anyways, they ate the bigger bones and the pieces of meat were quite big as well Today we are eating some chicken leg and thigh. Which is going amazing. I think i need to start making them uncomfortable bit size again, because they are being too nice to me by eating so well this last week. Wow, they really had a great week! Awesome progress! (dance) I agree- time to step it up and push their comfort zone! (giggle) Soon they will be eating big ol' bones like pros! Remind me - were you wanting to do whole prey as well, or just Frankenprey? Zack has not thrown up again. I will see how he eats the organs tomorrow. I know that honey and syrup is for seizures only usually, but i tried giving him meat some chicken piece, and some dried meat (which he usually really likes), but he wouldn't take them at all,just spat them out and claw at his mouth or run away and start heaving. I gave him the egg yolk right after and egg yolk is still a protein product, so that the rise and crash of the sugar would not be so bad after, and I left him some dried meat out near him. I do try to keep the sweet stuff only as a last resort. Thank you for explaining it though, because i know that a lot of people would just give it as soon as they started seeing the low BG symptoms. Poor boy. I figured you probably knew but had to be sure. I'm glad he hasn't thrown up again - fingers and paws crossed that organs go down well tomorrow! Let me know how it goes. Another thing I wanted to ask about. I'm taking a shelter ferret in for about a month during February. HIs name is Rapscallion. He was living with a foster parent since December because he was recovering from adrenal surgery. Now he will stay with me. He is about 4 I think. He will be caged, because he might need to go back to the shelter at some point soon and going from free roam to shelter life is a big shock, and i don't know how he will get on with my crowd yet. I was wondering how I should organize the kibble and the meat? I wanted to get him to try some meat, but keep him primarily on kibble (in case his adoptive parent wants him on kibble, or he stays at the shelter later). Is the only thing to take into account that the kibble should be separate from the meat by 2-3 hours before and after? or is there other things I should keep in mind? Mine were off kibble in less than a week and it was way too long ago, so I forgot everything. Aww what a cute name! Hmmm There's plenty of ways that you can go about it, it's really what is easiest for you that ensures kibble and meat are separated by a few hours. I don't do partial switches, partially because they are so messy IMO (and mostly because I think they should eat ALL meat) - I definitely agree that keeping him on kibble is the right thing to do though considering his adopters might not want to do raw. Can you do a half and half rotation? Like kibble overnight and raw during the day? You could take the kibble out in the morning (if that gives you enough time?), and put in the raw before you go to work/school, then take the raw out when you get home and put kibble in when you go to bed. Otherwise you could just do a raw meal in the day/evening. Get home, take the kibble out while they come out for playtime etc. After a few hours feed him his raw meal. Give the kibble back when it's bedtime. Is he already taking some raw, or are you going to have to introduce him to it? (I'm assuming the latter)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 9:14:45 GMT -5
So today's organ meal went well, everyone ate some. Though I added a chicken egg yolk, and some salmon oil. It was cheating, but at least the bowl was nearly empty.
I was wanting to try whole prey at first, but I'm having trouble finding it.. Otherwise I would have given them more than just mice (which cost the same as diamonds apparently) it was 6$ for four little mice. I found a place that also sells rats, but nothing else. While I have found affordable rabbit and duck and chicken etc. I think sticking to frankenprey, with occasional mouse meals sounds more reasonable.
For Rapscallion I think leaving him night kibble and a day meal would work best. Thanks.
He has only tried egg yolk before... I think he liked it, but it was a bit more than 2 months ago.
He used to have a best friend called Ricochet, but that one got adopted. They couldn't take Raps, because of the surgery expense that he needed right away. Now that he has had it done they are still considering it, but very slowly. I want to keep him very much, if the adoption falls through. But that is the dangerous void of ferret math.
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