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Post by gfountain on Jun 13, 2014 11:04:59 GMT -5
when I checked the closet, nothing! He must have realized mommy wasn't going to cave and he better eat while it was still good! Either that or he has another hidey hole that you didn't find. Since he's taking it to the closet, he might like to have a feeding den, and that might stop his stashing... might. I woke up this morning to get him, and the WHOLE mouse, ALL his liver, and ALL of the chicken hearts were gone. I double-checked all over his cage because I couldn't believe it. Nice little furry poops waiting in his litter pan. Wahoo! GO EZRA!!! Good for him Nice poops, huh? Next mouse, just slit the belly and see if he'll get into it himself. If he doesn't, let him watch you open it up farther. He should get the idea. On another note, are rats okay for them to eat, and are they considered different protein from mice? I've seen them in the freezer at Petco when I buy the mice, and they are euthanized and flash-frozen, made from the same company.
Rats are fine. Yes, different protein, but usually too big to be a single meal for one ferret. We finally made it to payday, also! So I'm placing an order with hare-today! Yayy! rabbit... so I can just chop it up and give it to him inbetween meals of mice and stuff, I assume? Anything that is too large will need to be cut into pieces, and then added to the menu as a meal or you can give it as 'snacks'. Ideally with whole prey, you just give them a whole animal and they eat it. But with Ezzy being a light eater, any of the larger items may need to be cut. Now when Laney comes home, she'll most likely be a HUGE eater, lol. You'll kind of have to play it by ear for now, until you learn how much Ezra will eat without having a lot of waste. Whole prey however can be left out a LONG time before it goes off. guinea pigs... Are these adults or juveniles? That's the only issue I see with either of them. For complete nutrition, you want to feed more adult than juvenile prey. They also have lamb - 3lbs mutton/bones/organs, course ground. Lamb is excellent. It is one of the meats (along with goat I believe) that is considered to be hypoallergenic and it's recommended that every ferret acquire a taste for one of these in case they develop allergies to one of their staples. let me know what you would change:
Looks good to me. The only thing I might change is to get more quail. You know he likes those and you don't want your menu to be too heavy on any one protein (mouse). With your rabbit being big and not knowing about the size of the pigs, you may or may not need to add extra heart and organs to the menu. It never hurts to feed extra hearts, but you don't want to overdose him on the organs. Once you get the food and start getting the big stuff cut up, we'll work on getting the organ ratio right. I hope he loves all the yummies! :thumbsup:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 11:33:01 GMT -5
Thanks!
Trust me, I looked ALL OVER that closet! Lol. I'm impressed with him if that's the case! I guess we'll know in a few days, if some terrible smells crop up - but he definitely ate the full mouse this morning.
The guinea pigs are adults. I remember you said no babies for full meals because they're not fully developed. Thought about getting some babies for snacks, but I figure we can always do another order later if we decide we want that.
I'll go for an extra order of quail (totalling 16 quail).
You said deficiencies take a while to show up. How long would that take, if I just cut up the rabbit into a bunch of pieces and gave it to him over the course of a month? I would feed mice and guinies inbetween, but wouldn't that keep his ratios fine if he had part of a rabbit for his PM meal every day, and then a whole animal (mouse, pig, or small quail) for the AM? I know the goal is to have it balanced over time, what is the timeframe on that, if there is one? Like with the rabbit, if I just chop off part of a foot one day and then ribs the next and then an ear and then some guts...? Eventually he'd eat the whole thing aside from big bones, I think.
I just placed the order. Here's what I ended up getting:
10 extra-small guinea pigs 1 small guinea pig 16 adult quail 2 adult chickens 50 adult mice 3 lbs ground lamb
And, if you (or anyone else) is curious, this plus shipping cost $241.00 (you see why I am broke all the time?... on the bright side, I am thinking this should last 3-4 months if all goes well... maybe more?)
Anyway lol, as you can see, I opted against the rabbit. I still got the whole chickens, which I'll need to cut up to feed him, but with the mice, quail, and cavies, he'll have three proteins, and I also have chicken leftovers... Once you've walked me through introducing the new stuff a couple of times (I'm excited for the cavies!) I think I'll have a grasp on it and can handle the rabbit myself, once they have a small or medium size available.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 13, 2014 11:57:51 GMT -5
Generally we try to balance the diet over a week's time. So with that rabbit, you would just need to make sure he got some of the organs each week. You would consider the foot, ribs, etc as bone-in meals and make sure to feed the appropriate ratio of organs and hearts.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 12:03:07 GMT -5
Okay, so exactly like the frankenprey, just with me cutting it up myself. Gotcha. Another question: Are you planning to graduate me before little Laney comes at the end of August? I know we're moving very quickly with Ezra, and she should already be eating meat by the time we get her, but I was wondering what you're thinking about that.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 13, 2014 12:50:47 GMT -5
I actually hadn't even thought about it. How do you feel about it? You seem to be getting a handle on what they need nutritionally, and Ezra's been doing great, so once he's eating the whole prey WHOLE without any issues, you should be good to go. But a new baby can throw new wrinkles into everything, so I don't want to graduate you before you feel you're ready.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 12:58:31 GMT -5
Yes, I definitely want him eating it whole without issues. Since she's already eating meat (I got to watch them eat some rabbit on the webcam!) I think I'll have a fine time with her... Will you be around for advice after I am graduated? I don't think I'd need to go through the whole process with her, I just might have questions once I have multiple fuzzies. As long as you'd be alright with answering the odd question on fb or here when I get her, then I'm okay with graduating once Ezra is where we want him.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 13, 2014 13:46:31 GMT -5
Definitely! We'd never just cut you loose without support! Do you know which of the kits you'll be getting? I watched them the other day for a few minutes.. they are so adorable... almost makes me want another... almost
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 13:53:03 GMT -5
In that case, 's get him eating whole mice over the next couple of days, and I'll get a new menu written up for the upcoming week (starting Sunday). Once I do, I'll post it here and you can look over it and see how ready you think I am. As long as you think I have a good understanding of it, and assuming he keeps being so cool with the mice and everything, I'm fine with graduating as soon as you suggest.
We aren't able to tell the kits apart from each other yet, but I have first dibs on the one I want, because I put my deposit down first. We definitely want a sandy-colored one, and a jill. I'll let you know once we are more able to see which of them is which!
Oh, and our hare-today order is set for 2-day shipping and will ship out on Monday the 16th, so probably won't be here until Wednesday.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 10:15:54 GMT -5
Quick update this morning. He still had a gizzard left over when dinner came up last night. He's started stashing everything right by his bed so he doesn't have to go downstairs to eat... lazy bum.
We left the remaining gizzard and gave him two mice. One had the stomach slit open just a little bit, and the other did not. This morning, he'd eaten the remaining gizzard and half of the mouse that had its stomach slit (the bottom half, which I find funny. Tail and all) and the other mouse still remains. I'll leave it in there until tonight and see if he gets into it without the stomach cut up. I'll also get a new menu made up this afternoon/evening.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 15, 2014 10:32:14 GMT -5
hehe... taking food to bed for his midnight snack! Good for him getting into that mouse. Now if he'll just learn to dig in by himself...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 17:25:20 GMT -5
He is eating his mouse as we speak. Woo! Didn't cut this one up any, just left it there... and he's chowing down! Go Ezzy!
I was really waiting on this before making up his menu, because I plan to introduce new proteins once they arrive, which means possibly altering the menu, and didn't want to have to change even more, in case he didn't touch his mice. Now it's not a worry!
We're moving heavily onto a whole prey diet with proteins he's already used to, mostly, while keeping in mind the ratios with the remaining (unwhole) meals and the "three proteins" rule. We actually have 4 proteins for him this week once his order from hare-today comes in, only one of which (the lamb) is new to him... and if he doesn't eat the ground lamb, we'll feed mice in its place to ensure he gets the right levels of everything.
I also recall you mentioned we could cut out the beef kidney once he's eating half whole prey. I'll add the kidney in if he won't touch his mice or something, but I don't see it being a problem, so I've listed just the liver on the menu. I'm also italicising whole prey meals because it's easier to read that way.
Sun adult mice CGH bone-in Mon chicken hearts CGH bone-in Tue adult mice chicken liver Wed chicken gizzards ground lamb, whole carcass Thu adult mice 1/3rd whole quail Fri ground lamb, whole carcass 1/3rd whole quail Sat adult mice 1/3rd whole quail
Now, using a 10% ratio of hearts and a 10% ratio of liver with 5 unwhole meals this week, comes out to .5 of a meal of each. You told me not to mix these because once Laney comes, I won't know who is eating what. Thus, I figured the best thing to do would be to offer a full meal of each. That will be 1.5 oz of each a week, or 20% of his total frankenprey consumption. I am not sure if you'd have me do something different with that?
Thanks!
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Post by gfountain on Jun 15, 2014 18:52:23 GMT -5
I'm so proud of Mr. Ezra! He's doing so well! Your menu looks good.. good variety of proteins. With the heart, there's no problem feeding extra. Taurine (which is the reason for the heart) is an amino acid & water-soluble so if he gets more than he needs, it will be passed in his urine. Organs are another story, though. They can have too much Vitamin A, so you have to be careful with those. Since he's only needing half a meal of organs (and you CAN skip the kidney since he's getting enough whole prey now), you have a couple of options.
For now, since he's still a lonely-only, you can mix half a meal of organ with something else. Just make sure he eats his liver. OR you can give the whole meal of liver this week and no liver next week. The problem with that method is keeping track of which week you're on.. I would get thoroughly confused doing it that way. Once Laney arrives, you'll have to figure out what works best for you. IF you have time to sit and watch them eat, you can do the half-meal by feeding only the liver first, making sure they eat it, then serving the other half-meal. OR you could chop the liver & other meat together so they can't very well separate it.
Quail.. is this the same quail he's been having or some that you ordered? Curious because the quail I have are very small and 1/3 of a quail would not be nearly enough for a meal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 21:36:00 GMT -5
I think I'll do the alternating weeks. I was going to ask if that'd be okay, actually, but figured I'd wait for your reply. Glad that will work. And since I have the spreadsheet, it should be no problem at all. The quail - I want to start with the ones I've had, but will feed the ones that come in when I run out. The 1/3rd is an estimate. We'll feed 1.5 oz per meal either way, but I think that'd be just over 1/3rd of the quail. Maybe like 4/9ths? Anyway, I'm glad the menu didn't need correction, so it looks like we're good to go for this week.
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Post by gfountain on Jun 16, 2014 8:48:15 GMT -5
Yep, good to go. Let me know how he likes his new stuff. Is he eating his wings whole yet, or are you still cutting them for him?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 9:02:38 GMT -5
We ran out of the chicken wingettes a while back, but he eats CGH wings without issue, and he eats whole chicken necks. When our order comes in on Wednesday, I can try him on a whole chicken wing. I have a feeling he won't have any trouble with how receptive he's been overall.
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