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Post by Heather on Mar 25, 2014 21:58:45 GMT -5
Name: HF Forum Username: msav 1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? Fellow ferret owners at a ferret Pool Party 2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret. I would like to fully switch my 3 older ferrets to a Frozen-thawed/live prey/Raw/Frankenprey 3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? To decrease the likelihood of my ferrets being Kibble malnourished or having kibble induce health problems - Teeth, insulinoma, etc 4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment? Yes 5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for? 6 Hammie - 6 Years - Male - Pre-Adrenal, IBD, On Deslorelin (no current symptoms) Average weight - Since he was 8 months Koufos - 4 Years - Male - Agression toward ferrets - Average Weight - Since he was 8 weeks Cassia - 4 Years - Female - None - Average Female weight - Since she was 8 weeks Mogwai - 8 Months - Male - None - Heavy weight - Since he was 4 months Taz - 4 Months - Male - Wardie (deaf) - Average Weight - Since he was 7 weeks Bleu - 4 Months - Male - Wardie (deaf) - Heavy Weight - Since he was 7 weeks 6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup? Mogwai, Taz, Bleu currently fed Frankenprey/whole prey - They eat Soup once a week Hammie, Cassia, Koufos currently eat Wysong Ferret Epigen 90 - Artchetype1 - They eat soup once every day 7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? I offered it to them they did not eat it. If that counts as trying. 8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? Nothing applicable 9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? Every Day, All day 10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible). Hi and welcome to the mentoring program (wave). In a little while your mentor (Bitbiter), will introduce himself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by bitbyter on Mar 26, 2014 20:48:52 GMT -5
Hello! My name is Jason (or bitbyter if you prefer) and I will be your mentor here on the Holistic Ferret Forum during your ferrets switch to raw. I am looking forward to helping you and your fuzzies adjust to a better diet that will promote better health, more energy and decrease the risks of your ferret developing insulinoma (or help control their symptoms if they already have it). Please confirm your have the following:Kitchen Scale Blender or Food Processor to make soup Have located at least two different sources for raw organs Cleaver or heavy knife capable of chopping through poultry bones Coffee grinder to make egg shell powder or a source of human grade bone meal Freezer space to store at least a weeks worth of meals Please take the time to read the documents in the Intro To Raw section and ask about anything you don’t understand or need clarification on.This is the recipe to use for the introductory Raw Soup.Please make sure to report your ferrets food intake every two to three days (you can ask questions at anytime!). See the examples below for how I prefer to have you report their food intakeMonday:Bonzo = 2 oz of chicken soup Athena = 1.5 oz of chicken soup Winston = 3 oz of chicken soup Tuesday:Bonzo = 2 oz of beef heart + 1 oz chicken liver Athena = 1 oz of beef heart + 0.5 oz chicken liver Winston = 1.5 oz of beef heart + 1 oz chicken liver Weights NEED to be reported weekly in lbs & oz (preferably the same day every week). Please just build on previous reported weights so that it is easy to see any changes in weight. Weights:Bonzo = 2 lbs 1 oz / 2 lbs 2 oz / 2 lbs 2 oz / etc Athena = 1 lbs 10 oz / 1 lbs 9 oz / 1 lbs 9 oz / etc Winston = 1 lbs 8 oz / 1lbs 9 oz / 1 lbs 10 oz / etc
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Post by msav on Mar 26, 2014 21:26:19 GMT -5
Hello Jason, I have everything needed. I also have 3 younger ferrets on full raw for 2 months now. below is the meal plan currently in place for them. we can touch on them at first and go over the meal plan I have for them and if you don't think it needs any adjustment we can just move on to the 3 older ferrets. My daily weigh ins have been on Fridays. I have a weekly weigh in already documented since I started the self switch on soup. If you want I can post the days and the weights However I have not been documenting the amount eaten so it may not be much use. Here is the current status of the 3 older ferrets. I feed them soup in the morning and in the afternoon. Koufos - (caged by himself) is eating 100% raw soup. He will eat it on his own if it is thin (milk consistency) or will eat it from my finger at full thickness. He currently has Wysong ferret epigen in the cage and he eats 8 to 10 grams of epigen per day. Cassia - (caged with Hammie) is eating 100% raw soup. she will eat it thin on her own or will eat it full thickness if I feed it from my finger. She Has freeze dried chicken and Wysong Artchetype (rabbit, chicken, and quail) in her cage. I have not measured how much they eat daily. Hammie - is eating raw soup with 1/2 teaspoon of oxbow Carnivore care mixed in. He will eat this on his own if it is thin consistency. He now will eat the full thickness raw soup from my finger. (he used to retch when I fed him this) He does not like chunks. If there is any small bits in the soup he will stop eating if he comes across them. Please let me know if you need any more info from me.
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Post by bitbyter on Mar 26, 2014 22:36:21 GMT -5
Great so see a Mentee so organized already ! My major concern is of course going to be Hammie due to his medical issues. Do you know what his IBD triggers are? Also, have you tested his blood glucose levels for insulinoma? You mentioned he was pre-adrenal and has a des implant. Adrenal can often mask insulinoma. You also mention that he stops eating as soon as he comes across chunks. Do you mean he acutally gives up on the meal or will he finish the soup (just eating around the chunks)? What are the condition of his teeth? As for Cassia and Koufos, you can probable remove the freeze dried and kibble from their daily intake. As long as they are eating the soup there isn't any need to keep them on those. I would also suggest feeding the thickest soup you can. Finger feed to get them started but lure them to the plate / bowl while they are licking and eventually you'll get them eating without your finger being involved. For the other three that are basically already switched, just type up their weekly menu and I'll look it over for any issues but we can probably safely say they are fully switched.
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Post by msav on Mar 27, 2014 4:50:43 GMT -5
I have tried testing Hammie, after about 6 pokes and not a spec of blood I gave up. I do not know what triggers his IBD, he will be eating the same thing and his poop will go from solid to liquid. My guess is he is actually adrenal. I had the des implant put in at the first sign of rat tail. he was never really diagnosed. I suspect insulinoma because he will normally come out of his cage, run aroung for 20-25 mins then go find a place to sleep. when he finds a chunk in his soup he will stop eating and run away, I can get him started again by putting him in front of the soup again. I actually have not looked at his teeth in a while.
are you saying it is more important that they eat the thick soup than eat the soup on their own?
Cassia is housed with Hammie so removing the freeze dried will remove it for both of them. Koufos is not a problem. I will type up the youngsters menu later today when I get to work.
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Post by bitbyter on Mar 27, 2014 6:52:50 GMT -5
You tried testing him for insulinoma or a vet did (sorry, just not sure by your explanation). Running around and then resting aren't really signs of insulinoma. Early signs are more like they have drunk spells, they stagger, wobble and generally look like they've been to the bar for a night out. Try and get some pictures of his teeth. I need to know their condition before we start pushing him towards solid food.
As for the thickness of the soup, it is important because the more water you add to it, the less "meat" you are giving them (they eat less because they have bulked up on the water in a thinner soup). It's about nutritional concentration. Also, thickening it is the gateway to solid food. If you are having issues with chunks / slivers (I usually suggest pieces about half the width of your thumb nail and about twice as long), you can try adding small amounts of ground meat to the soup.
If you have the ability with your cameras, why not record a finger feeding session with the thick soup? That will give me a great idea where you stand.
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Post by msav on Mar 27, 2014 8:09:30 GMT -5
In January Hammie had a surgery to remove a growth on his tail. The vet tested his BG and it was 67. He made a comment to me it was a little low. That is the only reason I suspect it. There is no other symptoms like you describe.
right now all 3 are only at the soup stage.
my soup recipe is
16oz whole cornish game hen. 2oz of chicken liver 2oz of chicken heart 2oz of beef brain (for thinning the soup)
I drop everything into my blender, it turns it into a creamy mousse. Sometimes I don't blend it enough and I get a few chunks.
I will get a photo of his teeth tonight, and I will record his feeding session tonight.
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Post by msav on Mar 27, 2014 8:26:45 GMT -5
Meal plan for the 3 youngsters. Mogwai, Taz, and Bleu
Sunday AM - 2 mice per ferret PM - 3 oz of bone in rabbit per ferret
Monday AM - 1 oz of each pork, chicken, beef Heart per ferret PM - 3 oz Bone in duck per ferret
Tuesday AM - 3 oz bone in quail per ferret PM - 3 oz bone in Cornish Game hen per ferret
Wednesday AM - 1 oz heart, 1oz liver, 1oz kidney per ferret PM - 3 oz Bone in Rabbit per ferret
Thursday AM - 2 mice per ferret PM - 2 oz chicken gizzards per ferret
Friday AM - 3 oz bone in Chicken per ferret PM - 3 oz beef per ferret
Saturday AM - 3 oz Cornish Game hen breast per ferret PM - 3 oz chicken and beef liver per ferret
snacks and treats are chicken and duck feet and raw pig ear strips. once a week they get raw soup.
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Post by bitbyter on Mar 27, 2014 10:19:41 GMT -5
That menu looks good at a glance. I'll give it a closer look tonight when I am home but nothing really jumps out as an issue.
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Post by msav on Mar 27, 2014 18:09:07 GMT -5
Here are the initial photos. Cassia 1lb10oz -.5oz Hammie 2lb 2oz -.5oz Koufos 2lb10oz -.75oz
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Post by msav on Mar 27, 2014 18:25:35 GMT -5
Here are the feeding videos.
Hammie was being his difficult self but last week he retched when I put this in his mouth. Now he reluctantly eats a little bit. He ate only 2g
Koufos eats it but not much, I have to thin it down before he will eat it on his own. He ate 7g
Cassia eats it as well but again I have to thin it down before she eats it on her own. She ate 7g
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Post by bitbyter on Mar 28, 2014 8:37:42 GMT -5
How are the youngster's poops on that menu? It looks slightly low on bone in meats (could use one or two more meals) but if their poops are fine I wouldn't worry about it to much.
Ok, some things to try...
1. Thin the soup down as you have it at almost a pate consistency. I know I told you earlier to make sure it isn't to thin (I apologize) but the reason I said that is that lately we've been finding people making it so thin that it is more like a watery broth than a thick soup. You want it to be like thick cream or a thick potato soup. You should still be able to easily pour it. This makes it liquid enough that it is easy for them to lap up with their tongues but still provides a good meal.
2. Try using plates instead of bowls. Many ferrets don't like eating out of bowls as it blocks their line of sight (they feel exposed).
3. Let the soup get to room temp before feeding. Right out of the fridge is pretty cold for newbies as far as raw is concerned.
4. Is that the normal spot you feed them or was that just for the videos? You want to feed them in a comfortable spot where they feel secure. My Socks was a very shy eater at first and would try and run away with a mouthful of soup to eat it in private. I solved that we some eating dens in the cage.
It looks like we definitely have some work to do with Hammie. When you recorded that video, how long had it been since you pulled his kibble / FDR? Try pulling their food about 4 hours before you try feeding them the soup. It should stimulate their appetite. Also, I think I'd still be at the intro stage with him. He actively seem to dislike the entire process. I'd go back to rubbing it on his lips / mouth and dabbing it on his nose. Let him play, grab him every once and a while and repeat. Do this over and hour or so and then try the finger feeding again (with the thinner soup).
Lastly would it be ok if I requested you post your weights (food and ferrets) in oz instead of gr? I don't think well in gr as I was trained as a chef in ounces.
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Post by msav on Mar 28, 2014 10:07:42 GMT -5
trained chef huh, good then I can start using food/kitchen terminology and you can understand. I went to culinary school in Arizona and spent 5 years working my way up to Sous Chef at a couple of Hilton hotels. The pay did not match the work so I eventually settled on a career in the Information Technology field, that is where I an at today.
I recently started blending the liver and heart meals with egg shell, since they had watery poops on those days. I also started coating the non bone meals with egg shell powder. sorry should have added that info.
after those videos I did thin the soup down to a proper Hollandaise sauce consistency. Hammie was still in a traumatized state from the previous feeding attempt so he ate very little(about 4 spoonfulls). Koufos ate an entire bowl, cassia ate half a bowl. I had not removed the Freeze dried yet, I will do so today. Today is my work from home day so I will try feeding him throughout the day. I have always fed them at the table to keep the youngsters from eating their soup. Taz and Bleu don't like heights so they don't go up onto the table I only have to look out for Mogwai.
again Hammie is only difficult when the soup is thick. I will post video of the feeding with the thinned soup again. I have not forgot about the picture of Hammie's teeth. I just need to recruit some help for that.
I will go back and adjust the grams to ounces.
I will also get better video. The camera got bumped after I did Koufos and it was off for the other 2.
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Post by bitbyter on Mar 28, 2014 10:27:11 GMT -5
Lol, sounds like we had the same career path! I'm in IT now to (Server Admin / Engineer). I only survived in the culinary industry for about 6 years as well. Don't miss it at all! I still cook and will always have those skills but it is not an industry I'd recommend to anyone unless they are extremely passionate about it.
All of the above sounds good!
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Post by msav on Mar 28, 2014 12:29:02 GMT -5
I actually have a similar role in my company. My title is Senior IT administrator. But basically I manage all the Windows servers/AD/Exchange and handle all desktop/laptop support.
This morning I thinned out the soup to a Mousse type consistency.
Hammie ate 1 oz
Cassia ate 1.5 oz
Koufos ate 1.1 oz.
Cassia and Koufos ate it on their own after starting them going with my finger. Hammie needed to be spoon fed.
I have removed all kibble and Freeze dried from their cage. so hopefully they will have some appetite this afternoon.
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