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Post by katt on Sept 18, 2015 23:05:37 GMT -5
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Post by brittles888 on Sept 19, 2015 2:27:56 GMT -5
Ok, I'm here! I got home and weighed the little rascals. Jojo has actually gained 3 ounces since I first got him. I notice some seedy poops but not every day so maybe he doesn't have IBD... It's harder to tell whose poop is whose and what they are like when there are 4 of them going in the same corner of one box. I scoop every day but it's just a big pile usually all mixed together with sawdust stuck to it from the wood pellets breaking down. (What kind of litter is in the box you posted above? It looks cleaner than what I use.) Any advice for watching one ferrets poop if you don't see them poop and four are going into the same box? So the bone is normal? It's not dangerous being so sharp? I could have poked through my finger skin and drawn blood with that shard I took a picture of for Katt. I was worried it could pierce his insides or something. I don't need to worry about that? Anyway, the whippet thing actually makes sense. He does seem like a lean ferret. I took pictures of all of them I'm about to post. But the weights tonight.... Jojo was 2 pounds 6 ounces Lil Kit was 1 pound 10 ounces Lola was 1 pound 8 ounces Piggie was 2 pounds 15 ounces (He's getting fat again.) He always takes food out of the other ferrets mouths when they are eating. He wants all the foods. Jojo's energy is good..he plays hard and wakes up when I'm in the room and frantically wants out of the cage to play. He doesn't last as long as Lil Kit and Piggie though but I assumed it was because they are still babies. Usually he and Lola play for an hour, maybe two then they go back in the cage to sleep but Lil Kit and PIggie are still going full blast for hours. (I've been working so much so their playtime has been split up throughout the day whenever I can, not all in one chunk. But my winter just started so more free time. Yay!) ( For Sherry and Heather I work seasonally in a cruise ship town so I don't have much free time in the summer but have a ton in the winter.) I don't know if he's adrenal... :/ I haven't actually gotten him to a vet yet. I want to take all four of them up to Canada next weekend for a yearly check before winter comes and it's hard to get to the vet, so I can find out then. (I don't have a vet in my town, I have to drive hours into Canada to get to one.) Ok, pictures of them. Jojo...he looks really skinny from the top photo but he HAS gained weight since I got him. (Right after I took this picture I noticed the rubber band fell on the floor and put it away. I don't want you to think I just leave rubber bands lying around on the ground with ferrets.) Lil' Kit Lola (Lola is in the front there, Jojo is in the back.) Piggie (Jojo is next to piggie here.) I'll try to get some better pics of Jojo. Would that be helpful?
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Post by brittles888 on Sept 19, 2015 2:33:51 GMT -5
I forgot to answer some questions. I don't know if seedy poops are related to different proteins..I can start trying to pay attention though. It's usually just when I scoop once a day I would notice some seedy looking poop in the pile of poop. Not every day though...
I think that girl said Jojo was 2 or 3? But that might not be correct. So I don't really know his age.
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Post by brittles888 on Sept 19, 2015 3:06:37 GMT -5
Here's the bones I found that were so sharp and startled me. They are long too and you can see how the ends are like needles.
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Post by Sherry on Sept 19, 2015 10:17:47 GMT -5
Just wanted to say, it does look like you have an adrenal one on your hands if that is Jo Jo next to the white ferret. Fur is REALLY thinning at the shoulder blades.
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Post by Heather on Sept 19, 2015 11:47:11 GMT -5
Those bone shards look like chicken leg or thigh bones. It this possible? If that's the case either take a mallet or cleaver and pound them down a bit. I would lean toward more ribs and such...just because in a newer switch, sometimes the digestion hasn't quite got to the bigger support bones. Another thing to consider is adrenal often causes digestive issues and this could be the major part of your digestive problems ciao
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Post by katt on Sept 19, 2015 14:05:18 GMT -5
Some helpful pics gfountain took for me to show the different body types. I definitely think little Jojo looks adrenal. He doesn't look thin, he looks like he has muscle wasting in his hips - which is pretty classic adrenal (but can also be seen in IBD and some other diseases lol Ferrets!), but the wasted hips coupled with the thin fur on the shoulders screams adrenal IMO. That could also contribute to digestive issues without being full blown IBD, as Heather mentioned. I would call ahead to the vet you are going to take them to and make sure they have the implant in stock as they may need to order it and I'd hate for you to drive all the way out there and not get it. Unfortunately, with our wacky daylight cycles in Alaska, I think our ferrets are extra prone to adrenal disease. Koda was diagnosed at 18 months, Kenai at 2 years old. The implant works wonders though. It needs to be redone every 6 months to TREAT adrenal. If you wanted to do the babies, you could do it annually as preventive. It is spendy, but it is much more cost effective than Monthly Lupron (esp considering the distance you have to drive for a vet). Melatonin is often helpful to supplement des, but on its own doesn't TREAT the underlying disease, merely helps with fur regrowth and some of the other symptoms - it's just a bandaid. RE the bones, those are on the big size. I second Heather's Q - could they be thigh bones? It is possible that the bigger bones + still new to raw + adrenal affecting digestion could be causing such big pieces to get by. Another thing, is you may be chopping the bones at an awkward size - as in chop them less or chop them more. IF they are just small enough for a lazy fuzz to swallow without chewing, they can occasionally be a little on the big side for proper digestion. This usually doesn't cause issues, but it IS most definitely possible that it Can. I would suggest really pulverizing the larger bones, and do not smash the smaller bones at all so they are forced to chew them. Wings, CGH, ribs, etc they should be able to chew to appropriate sizes themselves. If needs be we can work on gradually increasing the bone sizes if they are stubborn about the bigger pieces. Thick bones like chicken legs not all ferrets can chew. My boys handle them, but they are decent sized males who have been raw fed from 8 weeks of age. LittleBit-BigButt might be able to handle the bigger bones. Jojo though is older, smaller, and a previous kibble fuzz PLUS likely adrenal muscle wasting. He may well not be able to handle the larger weight-bearing bones. Ulus work WONDERS for pulverizing those bones btw. I use the cheap souvenir ones and they work like a charm. Better than the expensive "real" one I got for last Christmas actually!
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Post by brittles888 on Sept 19, 2015 17:42:14 GMT -5
It probably is chicken thigh or leg bones. I have been cutting up whole chickens. (I can't get just wings here...my meat selection in my tiny town is very limited, and the last batch I processed I only had whole chickens for bone in meats.) I had been taking pruning shears and cutting the bone up with them...probably every inch along the leg to cut up the bone...so I need to cut it up even smaller?
Now that winter is coming and I have time I would like to start moving towards just breeding my own mice so I have a good source of food for them. When I gave them the frozen mice from petco they ate them right up.
I'm not sure if Jojo is losing fur...it might just be the lighting in the photos. I'll try to get some other photos with different lighting and backgrounds for you. I'll call the vet on Monday when they open to ask if they have the implant. I think I will just get them all done...approx how much does each implant cost?
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Post by brittles888 on Sept 19, 2015 18:42:42 GMT -5
I took a couple of videos of Jojo's body and fur in natural light so you can see what he looks like better. I'll try to post them here through photobucket.
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Post by brittles888 on Sept 19, 2015 18:48:14 GMT -5
Here's another one. Let me know if it works when you click on the picture to see the video.
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Post by katt on Sept 19, 2015 21:35:19 GMT -5
First video it seems a bit thin at the shoulders, second not as much. I will say from the videos he does not at all look too thin. And his hips look a less thin than the pics make it look - was probably partly postural. That said, his fur overall looks a little coarse. It could very well be that he simply hasn't shed out his kibble coat yet - but it kind of looks like he is blowing his coat a bit too (is he shedding?). He still could be early adrenal, or it could just be shedding time (tis the season...). RE the thigh bones, I would consider either totally pulverizing them (ulu, mallet) OR not cutting them at all and use the legs as boneless meals (and the rest of the chicken as bone-in). Weight bearing bones really seem to vary from ferret to ferret. Like I said, mine handle them fine - others have more trouble. They are much denser bone, so harder to chew and more material for the stomach acid to work though and digest too. Since he seems to have a little trouble, I would lean towards not using them as an edible bone. Heather and Sherry what do you think?
Adding the mice will be great. (dance) Let me know if you want any help on getting your colonies started when you decide to do that. I miss breeding. I have the space again this year, but Shane keeps reminding me that I don't need extra cages to clean with our current schedule. *sigh* Party pooper!
RE the implants, they tend to run about $150-200 a piece. They should be done once a year for prevention, or every 6 months for treatment. To give you an idea for Lupron, when I started treating Koda it was $40 a month, but then prices went up and I was paying $80 a month for Lupron shots. So $480-960/yr vs implant is about $400 a year (to treat). Both of my boys are on twice a year Des now. If I did it all again I think I would do the preventive route (but when I first had the boys, the implant wasn't even available in AK - I had to have Koda's first implant shipped up by another forum member in FL).
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Post by katt on Sept 19, 2015 21:35:48 GMT -5
Not sure why the text turned all italic and weird...
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Post by brittles888 on Sept 19, 2015 21:56:39 GMT -5
He has dark stripes of overcoat right in front of his back legs and I think it made the angles of his hips look skinnier in the pic from yesterday. (Like makeup to make the cheekbones stand out you know?) His fur has never looked very good..it's kindof course and scraggly...it's been like that since I got him. I haven't noticed him blowing his coat, but it does look like it in spots.
I went and read a bunch of the stuff you had posted in the adrenal board and now that I know more about it I want to just get them all the implants. I'm wondering if I should put a cover on their cage too so they get 12 hours of dark?
What technique do you use then you totally pulverize the bones with the ulu or mallet? I felt like the ulu kept slipping when I tried to cut with one before but maybe I wasn't doing it right. How small do I want to be getting the pieces?
I've been trying to find a frozen raw prey place so I can order a bunch and start feeding that until I get a mouse farm going. Rodent Pro was going to be $157 to ship one box here and they use fed ex which is a bad choice for Skagway. (Fed Ex ships Skagway packages to Anchorage, at which point they take them to the USPS and put them in the regular mail and mark them as delivered. But it could still take a week or two to get them after that and you don't know where they are at that point..not good with dead animals...so I need to keep researching.)
How many mice per day do they eat when you do whole prey anyway?
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Post by Heather on Sept 19, 2015 22:31:23 GMT -5
One thing I did find...it the bone was too dense for the Ulu then it was difficult for the ferrets to digest. Just a thought. Sometimes I have chicken legs and thighs and the Ulu handles the bone easily, other times not so much. I don't know if this is an older chicken or what but the density of the bone will be significant in seeing undigested bone in their stools ciao
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Post by katt on Sept 19, 2015 23:46:09 GMT -5
Oh wow, that's good to know Heather! That makes for a great rule of thumb!! Some Ulu videos I took 4 years ago - mostly a lot of smashing (with fingers out of the way!!): Newer video: RE the cage cover, that would certainly not be a bad idea. The problem I ran into is Koda eventually discovered the velcro, and chews it if I have it closed all of the way. I WILL say covers have the added benefit of keeping meat and poop off of my walls. I'll also add that personally I am NOT an advocate of keeping them in constant dark like some people seem to want to do. They need a natural light CYCLE - that means light and dark. All dark might be less bad than all light, but it is still unnatural. Just my two cents. Also, I made the decision of quality vs quantity long ago. With my schedule, if the boys are going to get sufficient play time this means they do a lot of playing out of the cage at night. I need the lights on to see and study. I'd rather them get the extra play time and attention, than lock them in their cage for the sake of ensuring they get a full 12 hours of dark. THAT SAID - the more regular you can make their light cycle, the better! Lots of people use amber lights in their ferret rooms if they need to use light at night (supposedly this has the lowest risk, something about red and yellow wavelengths causing the most trouble, but amber to me = yellow so I don't really know). Definitely some black out curtains in their room, a cage cover, etc can help to keep out some of that midnight sun. RE the preventive implants, I will add the caveat that it IS a med, and with any meds come risks Every now and then a ferret will have some issues with the Des, unaltered females in particular it seems. Overall though, that is a pretty low # of ferrets - MOST do just fine with it. We still don't know a *ton* about using Des as a preventive, and as such many vets will refuse to use it that way unfortunately. IMO though, it makes perfect sense to use it as a preventive looking at the basic physiology, and in the future I plan to use it preventively on any altered ferrets I have. Treatment-wise it is by far the best thing that we have. OH - and RE talking to the vet about adrenal disease. Some will try to REQUIRE you to do a Tennessee Panel to "prove" a ferret has adrenal disease before they will give Des....DON'T DO IT. The panel is ridiculously expensive, and pretty worthless. If it comes back positive you absolutely have an adrenal fuzz, but the rate of false negatives is super, super high - a negative test doesn't mean anything. It is super unreliable. Most GOOD ferret vets know this, and follow the rule of if the symptoms respond to Lupron or Des, it is adrenal - 'nuff said. Also, some vets will try to convince you that it is necessary to sedate them to give the implant bc it is a big needle. That is a load of balogna. There is no need whatsoever for sedation (UNLESS you have a particularly non-cooperative ferret, like poor Sherry's Lucrezia who goes nuts just walking into the vet lol). A lot of salmon oil on the table to distract them, really good restraint, and pop it in. Takes half a second and it's over before they even notice. They squirm more at getting a dab of tissue glue put on the needle hole than the implant itself. I've given the boys the implant myself. You really don't need sedation - so if they try to push it, try to convince them to at least TRY without.
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