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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 13:02:17 GMT -5
Riots 1/4 slivers 3/4 soup but I am increasing their size and also different proteins. She had pork yesterday and beef the day before. yes,the pork belly is unseasoned. Linus and Ty both lost weight from last week. Ty lost the most .4oz. I know he's not eating as much used to eat 8 oz a day now 3-5 oz a day. Linus eats a little more than that. Any ideas why? Am I doing something wrong? I'm a little concerned bc that's the largest drop to date. Ty is more of a picker and never sits for an entire meal. Linus will eat without me holding him but not nearly as much if I do hold him. Otis is a picker too and I haven't weighed him yet. Riot sits for a whole meal and finishes just about everything leaving just a smidge which is what I want. 4 oz a day for her. They (Ty& Linus) seem to love a new protein but when I serve it a second time aren't so thrilled. Even with the egg. The second time I gave it to them they wouldn't eat it. Just really strange. None seem to be responding to tough love either. Bone size, well, they don't eat well with large pieces, ie cutting a wing in just 4 pieces, I've been cutting them smaller smashing some and leaving some. I just can seem to figure them out. Even if I add EVOO they lick the EVOO and leave most of the food. I've also tried rinsing it with water and they lick all the water and leave most of the food. Ty did the best with the larger pieces but now avoids them. He will start to eat one but when it gets difficult he bites off the one piece drops the rest and doesn't eat any more. It's a s if he feels defeated or something. Otis hasn't hit the "eating me out of house and home" state yet but I'm waiting. He does well when he eats with others and I can tell he's a little bit of a follower. I made a feeding den out of Otis and riots old rabbit cage, it's perfect bc they will all fit in their, it has bars to hang things from, the dogs and the cats don't go in and it has a n easy clean plastic bottom. They've eaten in the the last 4 days and it's working well so far. Linus 2.8---> 2.6 Ty 2.9-------> 2.5 Otis 2.11---> 2.85 Riot 1.14--->. Same Breakfast today was 6oz of chicken backs. I'm defrosting the kidney and will add it to tonight's meal. charlies BG is 77.
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Post by gfountain on Feb 6, 2015 16:56:10 GMT -5
On their weights, when you put 2.5, does that mean 2 1/2 pounds or 2 pounds 5 ounces? It should mean 2 1/2 pounds (which is 2 pounds 8 ounces) but I've seen people write it both ways, so I want to clarify which it is. Either way, Ty is the lowest and even at 2 pounds 5 ounces, that's in the normal range for males. Have they, specifically Ty, started their spring shed yet?
3-5 ounces a day is a good amount of food. Remember, when he was eating 8 ounces, that was soup and there was a lot of water weight. I don't understand them not wanting the second serving of new proteins either, but then there's a lot about ferret behavior that I don't understand, lol. Since they're eating the new stuff without any problems (except for the heart and probably kidney (headwall) ), why don't you try rotating proteins for every meal instead of serving the same thing two times in a row. Maybe they just want a change. Just keep working on those bones, but go back to smashing them instead of serving them whole. Let's back up a little bit and see if that will help. Whatever size they eat readily, do that for a meal, then gradually work up, smashing less and cutting larger chunks. We'll take it a little slower and then try offering a whole bone again later.
The rabbit cage for feeding is perfect! You'll find that it's much easier to leave food out for them to graze on if you don't have to worry about them running off with it. Or the dogs and cats getting it. Some ferrets prefer to eat in darkness, so if you notice them (Linus) still trying to stash, you might try covering it with something to make it darker.
Just do a tiny bit of the kidney! You can either sliver it or make a soup of it, whichever you think they'll take better.
Charlie's BG is pretty good! What has it been lately? How is he feeling? Still pawing and foaming?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 18:49:08 GMT -5
Yes 2 lbs 5 oz. I do know my ounces Its the rest of my math skills that are terrible. Math and I are not friends. Okay if you think it's fine then I'll just keep monitoring and maybe this is his weight. I've not really weighed them before doing the switch so it could very well be normal. I don't get them either. I have been switching to a different protein each meal for the last couple of days but it doesn't seem to matter. Just plain weird. I haven't done a chicken in the morning and a CGH at night thinking, like you said, they might be too similar. After letting them eat in their own this morning, I held each one while they ate and they all ate well except for Otis. Otis is a die hard stasher. Riot, I'm so proud, ate almost all of her 1/2 soup 1/2 slivers meal this morning. I really pushed her and made the slivers longer than my thumb nail. She first ate about 1/3 but then I thought maybe it was a little too thick so I added a little warm water and she gobbled it up! I really want to get her off soup ASAP. You know how much I love it I can't figure out Charlie at all. He is pawing at his mouth again and I can't get him to stop. He's eating every hour, I gave him his Pred which was upped to .4 and his Carafate. I also double dosed his Pepcid today, bc why not? I'm runny out of options. Still doing it. The only thing that has changed was we finished his antibiotics last week. He was on it for 14 days. Do you think he may need another round? (Lightbulb went on, put ipad down and gave Charlie his antibiotics). I've decided to give it a try maybe he has another ulcer or something. I'm going to call my vet again tomorrow and see what she says. I will figure these monsters out though. I'm determined! Why only a small,bit of kidney? Do they hate it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 20:08:19 GMT -5
Otis is so lazy...I'd thought I'd share..
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Post by gfountain on Feb 6, 2015 23:54:27 GMT -5
BAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I love Otis! That is too funny!
2 lbs 5 oz is ok but I'd rather he had a few more ounces. I have one that is 2 lb 6 oz and he's very healthy but he looks skinny to me. Hold Ty up under his arms and let him dangle. He should be tube shaped with no waistline. You didn't say if they've started their shed. The reason I ask is because once they do, spring weight loss is on the way. I've heard of several forum ferrets who have already started their shed and weight loss. In fact, I have one blowing his coat and another beginning to lose a few ounces. I wonder if that could be the reason for their loss. You've had these guys for several years now. Do they normally lose a lot for spring?
What size are their pieces now? I assume you went ahead and cut them smaller again. And do you know about how many ounces each of them ate? Did they eat any kidney? I said to just do a small amount because apparently kidney has a VERY strong taste and is spurned by many ferrets, and I didn't want them to refuse to eat just because their meat touched 'poison'. You can offer them some by itself if you want though. If they like it right off, that would be nice.
That cage is perfect for feeding. Once we get to chunks big enough to hang, it will help with Otis' stashing addiction. It's also nice that you can leave their food out for them during the day without the other animals getting into it. I'm glad Riot is doing well. But it is sad that you won't get to make soup any more, lol!
Poor Charlie. I hate that he's feeling bad. Are you spacing out the Carafate and the pred? I don't know about more ABs. I would definitely get in touch with the vet about that. Pawing at the mouth is caused by pain or nausea, which could be from ulcers, low BG, upset tummy, the mass in his belly, any number of things. Or a combination of things. Poor baby...give him a hug for me.
You're doing great! Patience, persistence, and lots of trial and error...they'll get there!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 11:56:05 GMT -5
Me too! Honestly I have no idea what they used to weigh through the seasons. I've never weighed them before switching. Yes, the pieces are larger, about 2" long slivers and the bone pieces are quarter size with some smaller. The last couple of bones meals they eaten around the bones even Ty. I have no idea why they are doing this. They are however, able to chew right through any large or difficult pieces. I let them work and work on them and I haven't rescued in a while. Here is a picture of breakfast this morning and I put a pen there for reference. This is what I do for each meal. I chop whatever they are getting in various sizes from small to large about 3-4oz each meal add a little water and a splash of EVOO. I put the plate in the feeding den and watch them. Most of the time they eat for a short while and then one by one leave the den. They seem to be doing more licking than eating at first. Otis and Ty go in and out of the den throughout the day. Otis usually steals the food hides it in his spot and eats it later. Ty eats only in the den but he doesn't seem to mind where he eats thus far. I am still adding a little bit of EVOO bc if I don't add something they won't even eat it. I've tried the tough love thing as well and I've also served them breakfast for dinner. This morning was the 3rd beef meal they've had and I am beginning to think they like their beef aged which is fine bc I now I know. Linus still eats better if I hold him but I first put him down solo, then I place my hand of him, then put him in my lap and finally, if I'm not satisfied I hold him. However, every meal I have leftovers from 1-2oz. A few days ago I threw a Hail Mary pass and put a little watered down baby food to entice Ty. Well, he didn't do any better and neither did the others, it was a CGH (body of bird with no legs or wings). I've also tried adding some beef bone marrow to a meal and no difference. They are driving me bonkers. Am I doing something wrong? I feel like I took a huge leap forward but from then on I'm moving backwards with them. They are all acting fine, playing well together and their poops are all solid, even Riot. Kidney- Linus ate some on his own. Ty wouldn't touch it and when I put it in his mouth he spit it out twice. Otis ate a piece or two. It wasn't a huge hit but, right now, they have to learn to tolerate it bc my selection of organs is low. I have to agree with them it smells absolutely gross. Riot, I have to admit, has stolen my heart. What a love she is and she even gave me a bunch of kisses. She is doing very well and I've been pushing her hard. Right now she's on 1/3 soup 2/3 large slivers (1-2" long) and I'm decreasing the soup with every meal. I'd like to get them all on the same page ASAP. She also eats in the den and each meal is 2oz or above.
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Post by gfountain on Feb 8, 2015 13:00:06 GMT -5
If poops and activity is still normal, I would just not worry about them eating less than you think they should. It's hard, I know, to not worry when you don't think they're getting enough, but apparently they ARE getting enough. If they will go to the dish on their own to eat and food is always available and they're just not eating it, then they must not be hungry. And if the baby food didn't make him do better, then nothing will, lol. If they are leaving 1-2 ounces each meal, cut back so you don't have so much waste.
I don't feel like you've gone backwards. Well, just a tiny bit from the big bone back to the pieces but that's nothing to worry about. You're doing great! You're at the point where you just have to out stubborn them. This is where people tend to give up. You're not really moving forward a measurable amount and it's very frustrating! Hang in there longer than the ferrets resist and you'll see changes again. Maybe they're just waiting for Riot to catch up!
Kidney....lol. It is horrible smelling. My kids don't like it at all. But they have to eat it. They will eventually be eating it with liver. They might like it better mixed with liver.
You need to get a menu planned ASAP. We need to keep track of when they get their organs and heart so we can make sure they're getting enough.
What did you think about Ty's weight when you dangled him? Tube shaped or not?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 13:45:04 GMT -5
Okay, I trust you. I feel exactly as you described so I'll push on forward & I'm so glad it's normal. I was just a little concerned bc he's been going down every week and at his highest weight was 3lbs. He's acting, normal digging on the side of my couch right now! I swear next time I'm getting leather. I just tried to hand feed hi one piece at a time warming it up under running water dipping it in EVOO...nope then I tried dipping it in baby food. He ate a couple of pieces but each one was a struggle. So, I put it back in the den and let it age. If they don't eat it today I'm giving it to them tonight too! Mommy can be just as stubborn. .
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 13:50:27 GMT -5
I took a picture of him hanging. He's in the process of growing all his hair back so he's still a bit bald I'll go read your post now. I do much better when things are planned..thanks gfountain! I feel much better.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 14:28:24 GMT -5
Okay here I go and please correct me. I think I remember reading that I should follow an organ meal with BIM bc of loose/funky poops?
Sunday AM: 1/2 chicken liver 1/2 beef kidney PM: chicken wings
Monday AM: beef PM: CGH
Tuesday AM: heart PM: lamb necks
Wednesday AM: pork PM: chix backs
Thursday AM: 1/2 beef liver 1/2 beef kidney PM: CGH
Friday AM: chix legs PM: beef
Saturday AM: pork PM: chicken thighs
I'd also like to add an egg in there as well. Which day or meal would you suggest? One of these days I'll break down and get a duck and I'm still looking for more organs.
So here are the proteins I have access to
Chicken backs, wings, legs and thighs Pork chops Lamb necks, lamb stew meat CGH Beef
Organs Beef : liver, kidney Chicken: liver
Heart: beef heart, chix hearts, beef tongue
I'd like to add later: Duck Turkey Ox tail
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 14:31:02 GMT -5
While looking at my food journal on day 1, which was Sept 11. Ty weighed 2.5 oz. maybe he goes up during the winter and then down towards the spring. This makes sense and I should have looked at my journal. Duh! i also had a question about the raw soup recipe. I've noticed that most ppl say 1oz of liver however, in the recipe bitbyter has up in the newbie thread it calls for 2oz of liver. Can you please clarify for me? heres the doc I am referring to docs.google.com/document/d/1aRms_O0F38lNSQktABNYDqievQ9GZSR4rRR6fcAcPHA/mobilebasic?pli=1
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Post by gfountain on Feb 8, 2015 20:15:29 GMT -5
First of all, in that picture Ty looks... ummmmm, plump. He is a pear shape and looks like he can definitely afford to lose a few more ounces. I took pictures of my kids so you can compare. This is Slinkee, 2 lbs 6 oz. Although I would like him to be a little heftier, he has a whippet body style, long and slender. Notice that his belly is tube shaped, rather than pear. This is Leon. He weighs 3 lb 1 oz right now. (Thanks for giving me a good reason to check weights!) He was 3-3 last week and he's beginning to shed so he's probably beginning his spring weight loss. Notice that he has the same tube shape as Slinks in spite of being heavier. The bulge on his side is his spleen...that's normal. Casper is next. He weighs 2 lb 8 oz and he's beginning to drop also. His body style is completely different from Slinkee's. Notice that although he's only a couple of ounces heavier, he looks a lot rounder. That is because he's shorter and stockier (and fluffier). He is a bulldog type and in this picture, he looks little chunkier than he should be. But I'm not going to worry about it because it's winter weight and fur. And this is Minnie the Menace, tiny but mighty at 1 lb 8 oz. She rules the roost. She's a whippet style like Slinkee, so she's long and slender but she has that same tube shape when dangling. And she has her seasons backwards, so she's getting ready to put on her winter apparel while the boys are taking theirs off, lol.
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Post by gfountain on Feb 8, 2015 20:35:00 GMT -5
Now on to the menu... You have 2 whole organ meals and only 1 heart meal. That's too much organ and not enough heart. You should have ONLY 1.5 organ meals and AT LEAST 1.5 heart meals. Most people do a whole organ meal, a whole heart meal, and a third meal that is half organ half heart. You can feed more than 1.5 meals of heart if you want, but not organ. If you overfeed the organ consistently, it can cause vitamin A toxicity. When I say consistently, I mean every week, week after week. A little extra here and there isn't going to hurt them. If they were in the wild, I guarantee they wouldn't be turning down the livers because they had already had their quota for the week. Feeding raw is not an exact science. We just try to get as close as possible to natural.
You only have 6 bone in meals and all of those are chicken. They need at least 7 bone meals to keep poops firm, sometimes more than that. And while I know you're having trouble finding bone in meats, I also know that the menu won't be approved with 6 chicken meals. But this is just a first menu, not the final one so its not a problem yet. What about the turkey? Didn't you get some of that?
Egg can go anywhere. Some mix it with a muscle meat, some mix it with organ. Some feed it as a treat. I give mine egg on Saturday mornings while I'm fixing human breakfast, then give them their meat after we eat.
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Post by gfountain on Feb 8, 2015 20:43:53 GMT -5
Sorry for all the replies...trying to get to all your questions and I'm afraid the forum is going to lose them again so I'm doing it in sections.
Back to weights.... They definitely do go up and down with the seasons. They can actually fluctuate up to 40% of their body weight! And you've just discovered another good reason for keeping a journal. My guess is that Ty gained both for winter and because soup is easy to eat and therefore he OVERate. 8 oz a day is pretty excessive, even if a lot of it is water.
1 ounce of liver per soup recipe is correct; that is 10%. I've posted in the mod forum about the discrepancy so it should be corrected soon. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 22:48:40 GMT -5
Yes, I can get turkey. I also have CGH is that considered chicken too? Maybe I should break down and duck as a 3rd BIM? That would be 3 different BIM proteins plus, pork, lamb and beef. Otis is loving the beef. He's been up and downstairs stashing like crazy. He's hysterical to watch with meat hanging out of his mouth running as fast as he can down the steps. A week ago he had never used a step and now he's a pro. I'll rework my menu go down on the organs and up on the heart. Thanks for the pics. They are soo darn cute. I could look at fuzzy pics all day
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