FrankieFerret's Switching Thread/Sherry

[Heather]

Name: Ashley Bergeron
HF Forum Username: FrankieFerret

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets?
various places online

2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
I am open to whole prey, and either full or partial natural diet. I just want what is best for my ferret.

3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?
My ferret has been having health problems for over two years now. The vets kept saying it had to be cancer. Test finally confirm its not. She has been on multiple antibiotics that haven't remedied any of the issues so I don't think its any kind of infection. Instead of her having possibly multiple diseases or conditions like the vets keep trying to tell me I think all of her symptoms can be explained by long term food allergies and malnourishment.

4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?
I am fully committed to switching my ferret's diet. I am going back to school part time this spring, but my ferret is my priority. I will find the time and patience needed to do what is necessary for her. My little furball is withering away, and changing her diet is really our last shot at turning her health around.

5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for?
I have 1 ferret. Frankie. 6 years old. Female. I've had her since she was 3 months old. She is underweight. She does have major health problems. Her lymph nodes are swollen, her spleen is enlarged, and she has major hair loss, along with being underweight. She is over all a less active ferret. The swelling in her lymph nodes and spleen is inflammation ONLY. Cancer has been ruled out. I believe the hair loss has been caused by long term malnourishment not adrenal disease (although I have read that food allergies can wreak havoc on the adrenal gland, so perhaps there is a link there).

6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc)
Marshall's Premium Ferret Diet kibble. Approximately 1/4 tsp FerretVite 2x daily. For the last two years she has been given dry and wet (1:1 water/kibble) food. I've recently taken away the dry food and tried adding in 80/20 raw hamburger to her FerretVite and wet food (1/4 tsp. each), but stopped after a few days because it was causing birdseed poop. Now I just add a little 1/4 tsp chicken baby food to her FerretVite. She takes the FerretVite with an anti inflammatory medicine. If she doesn't get the FerretVite I notice she drops weight pretty quickly.

7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
I've tried offering neck bones and egg yokes as treats when she was about 3 years old and she didn't want anything to do with it. Just recently when I've added hamburger and chicken baby food she will eat it mixed in with FerretVite (at most a 1:1 ratio), but tends to eat far less when I put even a pinch of either in her wet food. I've also tried switching to a higher quality kibble and she refused. I tired for about a month and gave up not thinking she was having food allergies or any of her health problems could be kibble related.

8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
Frankie's also has an unexplained cough that won't go away with antibiotics, but has been coming and go on and off since August of 2013. It is mucus that she is coughing on. A few months ago the mucus clogged something in her face and the left side of her face became complete swollen to the point her eye was protruding out. The vet lanced the inside of her cheek, drained all the mucus, and everything went back to normal even her lymph nodes (which have been swollen for over two years now). The swelling in her lymph nodes returned with in 2 days. She has two vets and neither vet has any idea of what is going on with any of her symptoms. I have exhausted the conventional route, now I am going towards a more natural route.

9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?
24/7


Hi and welcome to the mentoring program (wave). In a little while your mentor (Sherry) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. Also note there may have been some changes in the application and how you should post so please review these before proceeding. If you have any questions feel free to either ask your mentor or any of the admins. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey.
ciao

[Sherry]

Hello there! I'm Sherrylynne, and I'll be your mentor for their switch
First, a little about me. I'm 54, and have my own housecleaning business here in Calgary Alberta. I have 4 cats, ranging in age from 11 yrs, to 19(only one would eat raw, unfortunately ). I also have 8 ferrets. Boris and Vincent(rip) came first, two brothers, a sable and albino. Then Sinnead(rip). I got her when she was 4. She passed at almost the age of 8, had adrenal for 3 years, treated with lupron for 2 of those.
After that came my first deaf ferret, Lucrezia. A marked DEW. Then two foster ferrets, whom we fell in love with and adopted- Zeus(DIP) and Athena(DIP), both two years old at that time. Both were adrenal, and on lupron until they passed from adrenal related lymphomas at the age of 5.
After that, a little abused ferret we called Willow. She was the worst fear biter I've had, although now she's become a sweetie . Then, Emily. 1 month younger than Willow, and those two have bonded strongly. She's the only one Willow wasn't terrified of.Suki is the last one, I swear! She was a little 8 month old darling the pet store was having a hard time selling, so were getting ready to send her back!
While transitioning the first four, Boris was my hold out. EVERYTHING I gave him was poison, in his mind . Worst little drama queen I've seen yet . Twisting to get away, gagging, retching- he did all of it! Then one day- he ate it! Every single piece on the plate ! Those four haven't looked back.
The next two for transitioning were the fosters. Until we adopted them, I could only supplement with raw. So in order not to cause unnecessary tummy upsets(mixing kibble and raw too closely can cause some problems- more about that later), I'd give them raw one day, and kibble on a different day. So, by the time we adopted, they had no problem with 100% raw diet.
With Willow, I brought her home, and she flatly refused to eat the totally ferret kibble, so I went back to the pet store and got her a small bag of the crap they were feeding them there, and brought it home. I tried to give her some, but she just upset the dish. So- I tried her with some chicken breast. She ate it up! Hasn't had kibble since . Emily came to us as a raw fed ferret, so no issues there. Suki was another kibble head, but caging her in the daytime with Miss Emily showed her how to eat raw. And now- we've added Mr. Frodo, who essentially switched himself second day he was here
That's me and mine in a nutshell

The reason I started looking a raw feeding was something my vet said to me. I was, at the time, giving them small pieces of fruit for treats. She told me that was VERY bad for them, and in fact, some studies have started to link early feeding of sugars with insulinoma later in life. So- I started thinking. Kibbles are full of carbs. It's all those grains/veg/fruits in them. Those are converted to sugars by the body. To me then, sugar= potential insulinoma.
So, I started checking out various diets. I had no idea what an obligate carnivore was at the time. I found out! Not much wonder there was soooo much poop in the box! I may as well have been tossing my money in there. They can't process anything that's not meat based! So I feed meat
Their fur is softer, their energy levels are amazing- no mad rushes then crashing. Even my three year old's teeth are amazing. No plaque whatsoever Healing is faster, and if they do get ill, they have more reserves to rely on than when they were just kibble fed!
And there is a LOT LESS POOP!!!! Yay!
I'm looking forward to helping your little ones get on a much healthier diet, and having fun while we're at it
We have now adopted 4 more ferrets from the local rescue, bringing our numbers back up to 10 again 7m old Cody as well as a bonded trio of 2yr old males, Judge, Indie, and Odin(also adrenal).
All are also now fully raw fed
Ashley, I have sent you a pm about your wee girl(sorry, called her a boy!). Your ferret definitely presents with adrenal disease. Best bet is going to be a 3 month trial with monthly lupron. If she gets better with it, then it's confirmed. If she doesn't, no harm done. Also, a blood glucose test needs to be done. If she presents with 70 or less, she has insulinoma and needs prednisolone. This will definitely have an impact on how we approach this diet switch.
I understand you don't think she presents with adrenal, but believe me she truly does. Talk to your vet about a trial only, see what he/she says. It's actually how my vet diagnoses as the panel is WAY too expensive here in Canada.

[Deleted]

I will definitely talk to my vet again about trying to get Lupron in, but I am VERY worried about Frankie having a reaction to it (and not in the intended way). When Frankie had her fine need asprite done on her lymph nodes the vet also did x rays and an ultra sound. We did the works! She said everything looked normal besides the unexplained inflammation in her lymph nodes and spleen. She never mentioned any possibility of insulinoma, but I will talk to her about the blood test as well. Is there anything I can be doing in the mean time?

[Sherry]

Definitely For the interim we'll act as though she DOES have a low bg.
Do you have the fixings for the soup? If so, let's get her going on it! Only remove her kibble maybe an hour prior to trying her with the raw. You'll start by dabbing a bit on the end of her nose and letting her go. Do this over and over and over every 5- 10 minutes while she is out playing.
Do NOT be surprised by any reaction you see They can and often do include spitting, retching, twisting, whimpering, etc. Ferrets tend to be major drama queens.
As for the lupron- it is a completely different drug to melatonin. And the carrying agent is different as well so there shouldn't be a problem.

[Deleted]

I'm so sorry I didn't get a chance to post yesterday. I hosted my families huge Christmas eve dinner (for the first time) last night. Turns out hosting is REALLY chaotic!!! I did manage to speak with my vet for a moment yesterday. I just happened to catch her while I was in picking up Frankie's medicine. I didn't get a chance to ask about the Lupron yet, but I did mention the Blood Glucose test. She suggested doing a CBC to test if we were going to do blood work. Either test she does she was pretty confident she would have to sedate Frankie because she moves to much. Frankie has been through a lot in the last six weeks and has already been sedated a couple of times. At this point I would like to wait on putting Frankie through any more procedures/test. Being poked and prodded and shuffled back and forth to the vet is taking a toll on her. If it's okay with you I'd like to see how her body react to the soup and go from there.

I thought I had bought chicken hearts and livers, but realized I have hearts and gizzards. No worries though, the dogs will love them! I'll go back to the store tomorrow and make sure to get hearts and livers. Can't start today anyways. I've learned NEVER to start or change anything with Frankie on days I know my vet isn't in. The #1 thing you need to know is Frankie never has normal symptoms and never has normal reactions. Hence my fear of Lupron, which I'm sure will be fine, but you just never know with her. Frankie body never seems to do what a ferret body is "suppose" to do.
Before I get started tomorrow I do have a couple of questions about the recipe.
It calls for 8 oz chicken, 1 oz chicken liver, 1 oz chicken heart, and 1/2 tsp eggshell powder.
This is all raw, correct?
We don't have to transition her from whole cooked protein to raw protein?
Will her tummy be able to handle that?
How many eggshells does it usually take to make 1/2 tsp powder?
What is the best way to store the soup, fridge/freezer? How long does the soup stay good for?
As I am posting pictures of Frankie's progress is it appropriate or inappropriate to also post pictures of her stools? Lately they have been less birdseed like, a few seemed normal, but most of them somewhere in between.
OH! And I should definitely let you know Frankie's vet said to start her on a round of metronidazole after Christmas to see if that helps with the stool. She has been on this antibiotic before but that doesn't mean much. She had taken the antibiotic that almost killed her a couple times before without problems. So just out of precaution my vet and I never make changes when we know she will be out of the office.
Hope you and all your fuzzies have a very Merry Christmas.

[Sherry]

I did manage to speak with my vet for a moment yesterday. I just happened to catch her while I was in picking up Frankie's medicine. I didn't get a chance to ask about the Lupron yet, but I did mention the Blood Glucose test. She suggested doing a CBC to test if we were going to do blood work. Either test she does she was pretty confident she would have to sedate Frankie because she moves to much. Frankie has been through a lot in the last six weeks and has already been sedated a couple of times. At this point I would like to wait on putting Frankie through any more procedures/test. Being poked and prodded and shuffled back and forth to the vet is taking a toll on her. If it's okay with you I'd like to see how her body react to the soup and go from there.

I have to admit I can understand your position. However I AM suprised the vet isn't willing to do a simple bg test in office. Most trim the tiniest bit too short on a back claw while the ferret is distracted(they seldom even flinch- we've done it several times). I hold them for it all the time. All they need is a drop, literally. And of course if you prefer trying diet first, we'll do that.

I thought I had bought chicken hearts and livers, but realized I have hearts and gizzards. No worries though, the dogs will love them! I'll go back to the store tomorrow and make sure to get hearts and livers. Can't start today anyways. I've learned NEVER to start or change anything with Frankie on days I know my vet isn't in. The #1 thing you need to know is Frankie never has normal symptoms and never has normal reactions. Hence my fear of Lupron, which I'm sure will be fine, but you just never know with her. Frankie body never seems to do what a ferret body is "suppose" to do.

 


My guys ADORE their gizzards, . However it will be a bit before she's ready for them. You can either feed the dog with them, or freeze them for later. They will be good for several months. 
As for the lupron, I've never heard of any ever being allergic if it's any help. What it CAN do however is allow the blood sugars to go back down to where they would have been without the adrenal disease being there. Adrenal can artificially increase bg and once brought under control the hidden insulinoma then shows up. Which is why it's important to have that test done prior to lupron so the prenisolone can be started.

It calls for 8 oz chicken, 1 oz chicken liver, 1 oz chicken heart, and 1/2 tsp eggshell powder.

This is all raw, correct?

Correct

We don't have to transition her from whole cooked protein to raw protein?

Will her tummy be able to handle that?

No you don't, and yes it will A carnivores stomach acids are amongst the strongest on earth. They are literally BUILT to handle raw meat/bone/organs

How many eggshells does it usually take to make 1/2 tsp powder?

Not a lot. TBH I'm not certain. I know I powdered up a couple dozen worth about 6 years ago and STILL have some.

What is the best way to store the soup, fridge/freezer? How long does the soup stay good for?

Once it's made, keep a small dish out, maybe a couple tbsp. It will hold for a couple days in the fridge. The rest freeze in ice cube trays and when frozen pop out and baggie. Then you just take one out at a time until she's fully accepting it. THEN you'll go through it faster than you can make it

As I am posting pictures of Frankie's progress is it appropriate or inappropriate to also post pictures of her stools? Lately they have been less birdseed like, a few seemed normal, but most of them somewhere in between.

That's fine

OH! And I should definitely let you know Frankie's vet said to start her on a round of metronidazole after Christmas to see if that helps with the stool. She has been on this antibiotic before but that doesn't mean much. She had taken the antibiotic that almost killed her a couple times before without problems. So just out of precaution my vet and I never make changes when we know she will be out of the office.

She does sound like she COULD have IBD. If so, raw will help eliminate triggers.

Here is some reading for YOU to do. It will help explain raw diet, IBD, adrenal, and insulinoma. Just so you are aware- if you see her staggering, drooling, "spacing out", or god's forbid seizing, grab the karo syrup and rub it on her gums and her anus. Once she comes around give her a high protein meal, even meat baby food, or her kibble ground, soaked, and pureed. Then get to the vet ASAP.

Raw feeding:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/124/recommended-reading-natural-diet-newbies

IBD:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/board/28/irritable-bowel-disease

Adrenal:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/board/1/adrenal-disease

Insulinoma:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/board/30/insulinoma

[Deleted]

Thanks for the links! IBD! That sounds like Frankie. I just don't see insulinoma in her. Possibly Adrenal, but what I see as possible adrenal could just be symptoms of chronic IBD that hasn't been treated. I'm so excited to start her new diet. I was planning on starting yesterday, but the butcher was still closed for the holidays and she started a round of metronidazole (which is going well) and thought it would be best to not start two things on the same day. So if there was a reaction (good or bad) I'd know which is causing what. We are going to give it our first go around this evening when she wakes up from her nap. This way she will be hungrier. I'm hoping for a miracle (that she will at least try it), but keeping real expectations (that she is a stubborn little stinker). I can't wait to post how things go!!!

[Sherry]

Okay, sounds good Keep in mind the possible reactions, and just dab her nose and let her go over and over. Let me know how she does!
If she IS sensitive to chicken, you will notice super funky stools(worse than on kibble). This is where stool pictures will come in handy. One of mine had uncontrolled IBD for a long time and I think I've seen d*mn near every IBD stool there is.

[Deleted]

We had successes and partial failures. In the process of making the soup there was an accident with the eggshells and so this soup doesn't have any (uhh oh)! Yesterday evening was our first try. I started out using my finger to dab a little on her nose. We did this for awhile, but I ended up wearing most of it... so we cheated. I used just the inside part of one of Frankie's medicine syringes and put a dollop of chicken on the end (her soup came out really thick, more like a paste). Then I just barely dipped the tip in some FerretVite. She ate about 1/2 tbls worth of chicken to about 1/8 tsp of FerretVite. I tried not to mix the two so she gets use to the taste of the chicken. As long as the smell of the FerretVite was on the tip of the syringe she would eat the chicken paste. I know FerretVite is a big no no, but I tried to out weigh the lesser of to evils (her not eating meat vs her eating FerretVite). Frankie already takes FerretVite mixed in with her medications. It keeps me from having to scruff her. The inflammation in her lymph nodes and general neck area make it very painful for her to be scruffed. I use it VERY sparingly, especially after joining HFF and learning about insulinoma.
How often and how much soup should Frankie be getting each day? Frankie currently takes FerretVite 3-4 times daily. Each dose is about 1/8 tsp. Twice for her metronidazole and once or twice for her metacam. It use to be 1/4 tsp a dose but I use it as minimal as possible now.
Her stool is still improving. It almost looked completely normal this morning. I read on one of the threads that lamb and goat are considered to be hypoallergenic so just in case the butcher I found does sell lamb, and a friend said she would bring me some goat she has in her freezer (she raised them herself).
I can't thank you enough for choosing to be mine and Frankie's mentor. I think last night was the first night I got to actually sleep, and when I woke up my first thought wasn't "Frankie is sick. What am I going to do about Frankie." It was "Frankie is healing." I just can't put into words this feeling of hope I have... and excitement!

[Sherry]

Okay, for now, keep the ferrevite strictly for the medications With the soup, thin it out with some water to a thinner yogurt consistency. Dab that on the nose and let her wander. Each time, offer her a taste of the soup from your finger and if she doesn't try it, dab her nose and let her go again.
Right now we aren't concerned with amounts as she will still have access to her kibble most of the day/night. It's more just getting her to accept it willingly from your finger.

[Deleted]

Poor Frankie! Her mama is such an eager beaver. Okay we will give it another go.

Update: Yesterday morning Frankie's stool was looking basically normal! Yea!!! But then I went and messed up her metronidazole on accident. She basically got one dose in the afternoon instead of the normal dose in the late morning and at night. What I observed was her stools are basically normal when given the proper metro, but quickly turns back to birdseed without it. There was even a small amount of dark greenish color mixed in. She also threw up yesterday afternoon or at least tried to (that is a new symptom). I only saw her do it the one time in the afternoon right before I gave her the metro.
Her stools looked the same when I fed her hamburger a few weeks ago.
Is this consistent with IBD?
She had her metronidazole this morning and all is well again.

[Sherry]

That is actually normal when giving metro. I've only had to do that horrible stuff with them a couple times, and both times the stress was SO bad stools were horrendous. I flatly refuse to use it any longer. My vet even describes trying to hide the taste akin to trying to disguise Buckley's cough syrup for a 2yr old. It can and does cause ulcers with them it's that bad.

[Deleted]

I figured out why Frankie was puking gagging Saturday. Her face is starting to swell again. I'm assuming it's the mucus that made it swell last time (it was not an infection). I've noticed it early this time and it's not to the point where her eye is being affected yet, but both her vets are out of the office today and even the secondary exotics vet at her back up vet office is out. I've tried calling a third vet office in town and they are to busy to get us in! I'm trying to figure out whether I can get her to the exotic specialist that is a couple hours away or not. At this point I really don't know what to do. I had so much hope the other day, and now I feel like we've hit a wall again. Do I continue trying with the soup? She is still eating her wet kibble (I think the dry is too uncomfortable right now)?
If you don't use metronidazole, what do you use? It's the only thing I've found that is keeping her stool normal. Without it her poor tummy is going crazy. Does the IBD cause the ulcers or does the medicine?

[Sherry]

Metro itself is known to sometimes cause ulcers simply because of the stress of forcing it down their throats. For IBD we used higher doses of pred to reduce the inflammation in the digestive tract.

[Deleted]

Finally found a vet in town, and was able to get the mucus pocket drained (it's most likely a ruptured salivary gland and needs surgery in order for this to quit happening). Sigh, If it's not one thing it's another!!!
While I was with the vet I talked to her about all of Frankie's other symptoms. Insulinoma didn't come up, but of course adrenal disease did. The new vet had one last Lupron on hand, and could get more if I called in advance (she doesn't normally keep it on hand because most of her patients use the implants now). With what you talked about earlier I went ahead and took it. She said that it's not common but that her inflammation could be caused by adrenal disease. She is still on the metro and metacam for now, but hopefully only for a little bit longer.
So far I'm still managing to wear more soup than she is eating. I don't know how she does it (it's like an art form almost!) but this time I am just as persistent as she is.
1. Ferret's name: Frankie
2. Ferret's weight: 950-980 grams
3. Frankie eats approx. 1/2 oz dried kibble, 1/2 oz of wet kibble still not taking soup willingly
4. Stools on various proteins: while given chicken: stools are normal with metronidazole, and birdseed without it. Stools were not entirely normal before given chicken.
5. Activity levels: noraml-normal for Frankie is low. Extra tired Sunday evening and Monday because of swollen face.
6. Weekly Menu: 1 oz Marshalls kibble daily, dabs of chicken (breast, hearts, liver) soup - daily