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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2013 18:56:13 GMT -5
Kyle poked it with his nose at least! But then he realized what it was and lost any interest. I'll be home all weekend so I'll have plenty of time to work on this. Kyle and Johnny get about a teaspoon each night when I put them to bed (it's diluted with olive oil). The babies don't like it as much so they just get a little...they tend to roll in the litter box if I give them too much. One (or more) of them don't seem to use the litter boxes overnight very well as there's almost always a mess to clean in the morning. They're only locked in there for around 9 hours at a time and they're much better during the day. I wonder if the tone has anything to do with that. I'm actually surprised that Johnny isn't taking to it better. He's been the only one to eat different things in the past, including cooked meat. Jayden was the pickiest until now! Go figure I can definitely get beef liver. Maybe turkey giblets. I don't have a car so I can't really get to places outside this city easily. My parents are getting less and less enthusiastic about making the drive so I don't want to have to rely on them to get any of this. I don't think I've seen any freezers in this city at pet stores either...but I will check that out.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2013 20:45:05 GMT -5
Well at least he showed a little interest!! Mine are caged the same amount as yours, it sounds like. Mine go back and forth with the litter pan as well Just part of having ferrets. I switched their litter last week tho and they seem to be using it more. Strange! I will post more tomorrow on something to try over the weekend. It's along the same lines as wht you said earlier about putting it down when you know they're hungry, but it will require you to really watch them so they don't starve. It's what I had to do with mine, and after 1.5 days they were pretty much switched!! I'd write it all now but I'm using my phone! Will get to you first thing tomorrow though. In the mean time, are you leaving soup in the cage over night at all, along with the kibble? If not, maybe try that and see if it looks like they've eaten some in the morning. If they have, leave less kibble out.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 9:40:51 GMT -5
OK so what we may need to try is, over the weekend, completely remove the kibble from their cage, and only leave the raw/soup in there. This will require you to stay home and watch them closely to make sure they don't get TOO hungry and start having bad reactions. It will also require your attention so that you can see who is eating it and who isn't. The general idea is, they'll eat when they get hungry enough. You cannot do this if you are not going to be home to watch them, though. Even if you just do it Sunday, it will be a good start. If you are home in the evenings this week, you can do it then as well. Just don't leave them unattended without food. Could have bad results!
Let me know how it goes!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 10:37:54 GMT -5
I didn't give them any ferretone last night and there weren't any accidents this morning! It might have been a fluke so I'll try it again tonight. I haven't left any soup out overnight, but I will tonight.
That sounds simple enough though! I'll start today by moving their food into the living room so that they have to leave their room to come eat. I used to keep a food bowl out here but they always made such a mess so I decided to keep it confined to their room. I live in a two bedroom apartment with my partner and the ferrets have one of those rooms (the bigger one I might add). I'm home almost all the time now that I left school and will be until I find a job so I'm with the kids all day. I open their room and let them out in the morning and they all play for a couple of hours and then they go back to their room to sleep. Then throughout the day, each will come out randomly for some love and attention, usually individually. Johnny spends more time out with me by himself than anyone else. They all then come back out to play again an hour or two before I go to bed. They've made this routine by themselves and stick to it each day. This might work to my advantage because it's fairly predictable to know when they'll be awake. In a few days I might even figure out if they eat with any kind of routine.
So I'll let you know if they eat any soup overnight. I'll try removing their kibble either tomorrow so that they have today to figure out that I've moved their food.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 11:58:07 GMT -5
Ok great so you can go ahead and get started with everything! Just always keep soup with the kibble and try to encourage the soup/raw! Until you take the kibble away, they will most likely continue to only eat that, as it's what they're used to. The other method kind of forces the raw upon them I really think ferretone/ferretvite causes some nasty poopies. Everyone says it's not good for them any how. I only give them the vite now when I'm clipping their nails, or if one of them gets hurt and is freaking out (I should probably look into Rescue Remedy for that, but for now the vite is what I have). Also, please let me know when/if you find more organs. And could you also let me know what proportions of what meat you used in the soup? I think before you just told me what kind of meat you used Just want to make sure they're getting a good balance. With the ones that are ok with the S-N-S, continue to do that as they allow it. Try to do it when they're hungry, though. Keep me posted!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 15:22:38 GMT -5
I'm starting to think the same about vite/tone and their poops. I completely agree that the vite is bad. It was the only treat Charlie would eat until recently so I had to spoil him with something! I'm sure Kyle misses it . I can't see the harm with the tone though if you only give a tiny bit. As far as ferret junk food goes it has to be the best. I followed the recipe you gave me but I replaced 1 ounce of ground turkey with gizzards. I'll be going to the grocery store on Monday to look for other organs. Kyle and Johnny get mice as enrichment about once a month. Charlie and Jayden have no killer instinct and would probably make friends with the mice if the other two didn't get to them first haha. I always end up throwing the mice out, so instead, I could dissect them and use their organs if it comes down to it. Kinda gross, but I did a lot of dissecting in my animal physiology classes so it doesn't bother me anymore. Everyone is fast asleep and they haven't come searching for their food yet. So I'm just playing the waiting game!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 15:54:33 GMT -5
Jayden just came out and went to eat some kibble. I scooped him up before he got any and offered soup from my finger. All I had to do was get some in his mouth and he gobbled some down! He didn't even go back to the kibble when he'd had enough!!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 16:57:11 GMT -5
yay!! Those babies are the easiest to get to eat it Good job! As far as dissecting the mice - their little organs are so tiny, it may not be worth going through the trouble You'd have to get A LOT of them. Hopefully you can find some at a grocery store or butcher. I know around here, there are certain grocery stores that carry the odds and ends (cow tongue, liver, kidney, etc..many things that make you want to throw up hahaha) because certain cultures in this area love that stuff. Maybe you'll have some luck! If not, you may be looking at ordering some, if possible. I'm not overly familiar with any places to order from in Canada, but I know one of the moderators lives there as well. I can ask her for you if it comes to that Keep doing what you're doing! It's great that you have so much time with them during the switch! I think it will ultimately make it a little easier. Keep trying different consistencies as well (soup, frozen, mushy, semi-frozen, etc). Sometimes that's all it takes. You can still toss in the odd chopped up bits to the kibble and/or soup as well. TINY, though. Anything you can think of that you think might get them to eat it, go for it!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 17:00:07 GMT -5
OH and as for treats, if you can ever find dehydrated pieces (I can order dehydrated lamb gullet, beef, etc) that's a healthier option. And if you can find freeze dried food, that is good for them as well. For example, the Stella and Chewy's brand of freeze dried cat food is good. I'm just not really aware of what is available where you live. If you do find the freeze dried, though, be sure to add water and blend it. That's ultimately what I wound up using to switch my boogers. I found some locally and then when my commercial grind came in, I blended it with the freeze dried instead of the kibble and weened them that way. It's also a MUCH better alternative to kibble if you ever can't find the rights meats and need something to get you by in between.
I feel like I'm giving you a bunch of random information LOL sorry i'm kind of scattered this week.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 17:49:47 GMT -5
Haha no problem! I'm usually quite scattered I'm very grateful for the info! It's definitely paying off already. I got Charlie to eat more soup too! Yay! He made faces, but he gobbled some down. I can't believe I was so wrong about who would try this first! Hopefully by the time I get more mice they will actually eat the things by themselves haha. They're really weird about treats. They love freeze dried chicken, but only the Purebites brand. They all turned their noses to a Canadian version of the same thing. I've seen organ treats before so I'll give them a shot. If they don't like them my dogs sure will. Everyone but Kyle loved the Wysong archetypal raw "kibble" so there is hope. If I even went near the bag they would run to their bowl. I'll go on the hunt this weekend at the pet stores.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2013 22:05:02 GMT -5
With the mice, if you get the already dead ones (makes me sad lol kudos to you for beig able to stomach whole prey) maybe trying making some cuts on them so they kind of have somewhere to start. Same for any kind of meat on the bone that feed them. After a while they get the idea and will rip in to it without you having to cut it first. May even have to smash it up a bit with a mallet or something. Oh I think you said earlier that you were mainly using turkey. That's great to start with, but don't forget you will want to find at least 2 other animal sources to feed. 3 total at a bare minimum. Pretty much any animal is fine for them. Chicken and turkey are the best to start with, as they are generally pretty tasty to ferts!! Even if you can find some chicken breasts that haven't been injected. Just chop em up or blend them with a meal. Once we get them all to accept the raw as food, we will go deeper in to the correct ratios and all that. Since you seem to have a couple that are already really taking the soup, you can start trying to feed then slivers of meat instead of blending it all. I would generally sliver mine and mash it with a mallet so that they can really start chewing it. Then you work your way up to larger pieces as their muscles get stronger and they are actually able to gnaw on the meat. This could also be why they aren't exactly devouring the mice - they don't have the jaw muscles yet You're doing great! Keep it up and keep me posted. Remember to leave the raw/soup in the cage over nice. If you leave chunks in there, be sure to check toward the end of day tomorrow that they aren't stashed somewhere - clearly you want to throw it away if its stashed for a long time. With the weekend coming, I may not be able to respond as much through out the day, but i will definitely be checking in at least once a day. And you have my email if you need it!
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 9:33:13 GMT -5
It took a long time to stomach it. It's hard for me to watch them kill live mice . I used to have rats as pets and mice are just as cute. They never broke the skin when killing them so I have tried cutting them up after but it didn't work then. Once they know that meat is food I'm sure that will change. Should I get different meats now? With my dogs, I found that if I gave too many options at first they got overwhelmed. I had to get them used to eating raw before changing it up on them. I wrote a research paper on raising captive bred black footed ferrets and until recently one of the biggest reasons re-introduction was so difficult was because they weren't being raised on appropriate prey. The ferret's skulls were getting smaller and smaller over generations so that they were actually unable to eat prairie dogs. Same concept! I didn't have much luck with Kyle and Johnny last night. They both ate some soup, but with Kyle it was a two person job. He would flail so much that there was no way for me to hold him by myself. The bowl with soup weighed less this morning but that was probably just water weight. It didn't look like anyone touched it (no surprise). I'll keep at it though! Kyle or Johnny (probably Kyle) was mad at me overnight and knocked over all these books and binders that have never bothered them before. Spiteful little guy. I'm not sure what to do with him. Johnny will be easier, but right now I don't see any way to do this with Kyle without stressing him out. I also tried frozen and watered down soup last night with him and well, I got a lot of watery meat juice on my face lol. I'm going to withhold kibble today to get him hungry so hopefully that will help. I'll try giving some meat slivers to Jayden and Charlie later like you suggested because they were gobbling the soup down last night again. Thankfully none of them stash food, ever, but that could always change with the meat!
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 9:47:39 GMT -5
LOL oh yes it will change with the meat I used to feed mine their dinner in the living room until I flipped one of the couches over to vacuum one day and found all sorts of treats hahaha! Now that they are using the potty pads/litter pans regularly, I leave the door to "their room" open while they're out so they go back in the cage to eat. That's great that Jayden and Charlie are taking to it!! I figured they would since they are younger. Definitely try completely taking away the kibble today. And don't put it back down unless they start acting weird. They can crash sometimes and you don't want that! Just keep a close watch on them. I'll go back and re-read everything, but did you say you already tried a syringe with Kyle? (Sorry it's still early here so I'm still asleep/brain dead). I will go ahead and consult with the other mentors as well to see if they have any other suggestions for him. I don't want him to get stressed out/angry Maybe wait to try the whole prey again until they've all really taken to the raw. I had a pet rat before the ferrets as well. I loved her, but she was a handful when it came to keeping the cage clean/not stinky. I can honestly say our house stunk worse with her than it does with the ferrets. I know the people she's with now, though, so I don't feel TOO guilty. I definitely couldn't watch them kill any other animal. I'm too big of an animal lover. I know it's in their nature and it's the natural food chain and all that, but I can't do it. I'm a sap haha! You don't want to overwhelm them with options right now, but you might find that Kyle, or any of them, take more to certain meats. For instance, mine hate rabbit, but LOVE chicken, turkey, and mutton. And bison. They also don't like duck. So sometimes changing it up actually helps the situation. I mean obviously don't give them 20 options at once LOL! But you get my drift. That's interesting about the black footed ferrets and their skulls. Is that related to the Waardy stuff, since that effects their skull shape, etc? So sad that people don't care enough about them to breed them correctly. Hurts my heart. Let me know if the wee ones like the slivers! Start with really small pieces so their jaws can get worked up And I will get back with you about other possible techniques for Kyle!
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 10:21:09 GMT -5
Oh lovely! That would not be fun to find! I could see my guys doing something like that. They'll definitely get put in their room to eat. I don't want to find that under a couch! They leave enough "presents" around the place as it is haha.
The syringe is a no go with Kyle. As soon as he sees it he freaks out. My finger was better, but he still did his "helicopter" move when scruffed. He can get out of my grip so quickly.
I'll try other meats with Kyle when I get to a grocery store. There's a butcher really close to me that I just found out about so I'll give it a try. I was a vegetarian up until a year ago, so having meat on hand is pretty new for me!
I'm just thawing some chicken breast for them to try. I'll let you know how it goes!
I'm not sure about Waardy, I'm not familiar with him/her? Them? It? lol.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 10:35:20 GMT -5
LOL Waardenburg Syndrome. It's similar to Downs syndrome. Some are deaf and kind of 'slow' and others aren't. It's interesting if you read about it. Just found out about it recently.
Are you going to sliver up the chicken or blend it or both?
I left a message with the other mentors and will let you know as soon as they get back with me! At least for now you have 2, sometimes 3 eating it. We will find a way to get Kyle to eat it!
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