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Post by Heather on Apr 21, 2012 19:13:42 GMT -5
Name: Mary Fore HF Forum Username: Mef
1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets?
While browsing the internet looking for health info on ferrets.
2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
I would like to feed a combo of frozen whole prey and raw food with kibble as an emergency back-up. I just ordered a bag of Wysong Epigen for ferrets for that purpose.
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?
I lost my first two ferrets to diseases that I believe could have been avoided if they had been on a raw/whole foods diet. Very sad and unnecessary. I just bought a new baby ferret and I want him to have the happiest healthiest life possible.
4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?
YES
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for?
I have 1 ferret kit named Tomo. He is approx. 10 weeks old. I bought him from a pet store specializing in exotics on April 1.
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc)
The owner of the pet store wouldn't let me take him home unless I bought their pet food which she insisted was superior (I have other ideas). It is called Blue Wilderness and it is cat food. He gets free choice kibble and 1Tbl canned 2xday. The canned is supposed to have organ meats but it doesn't have it in the ingredient list. I also bought some frozen fuzzy mice and have been giving him one a day mixed with his canned food. I have to chop it up pretty small or he seems to have trouble chewing it.
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
I tried giving my first two (dearly departed) whole pre-killed mice but they wouldn't eat them. They were very stubborn about changing up their food and I didn't have a clue how to go about it. They were already 6 or 7 years old and not feeling well.
8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
I really want to start Tomo out right and would be very appreciative of any help you can give me!
9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?
Every day.
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).
Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (Sunnyberra) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 21:25:46 GMT -5
Yay! Tomo and I can't wait to get started with Sunnyberra.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 23:37:38 GMT -5
Hi, there, Mary! My name's Annie, or as I'm known on the forum - sunnyberra or sunny. I see you've got a little baby to switch. That's great - generally they are insanely easy to switch (though this isn't ALWAYS the case. My two youngest were pretty stubborn. Taking about 3 weeks for a full switch, rather than the day/day and a half my other babies were, haha). I'm not completely up to date on kibbles and commercial raw. But the Epigen I know is good, and I know Blue Wilderness is one of the better choices, as well, so if you want those as backups you're on the right track! Also, wow, GREAT that little Tomo is eating cut up mice. He may be having issue with eating it because 1) he's a baby and they have to learn, and 2) kibble requires different muscles usage and different movements compared to raw/whole prey. ALL my guys went through a really awkward stage when they first switched, when they had to build up unused muscles and learn how to actually turn their heads and use their teeth instead of just pick up-crunch-shatter the kibble. So it's good, start in small pieces and slowly work him up to chunks (defined as 2 inch by 2 inch piece of meat) or whole prey With the young guys and raw I always like to do the kibble dust test. It's simple - just dice chicken breast up into very thin, small bits and dust with kibble powder (put kibble in a bag and crush with a hammer of something else). Quite a bit of the time if you take their food up for a few hours, and play play play that kit out and put the food down after (possibly with an oil enticement of whatever he likes - ferret tone, olive oil, fish oil, etc) that's really all it takes and they're eating raw! If that's not the case (even after a scruff and stuff session) then don't worry - we've got a soup recipe that - in the long run - has always worked, too, given time. Here's the recipe: 8oz chicken meat 1-2 chicken hearts 1 liver 1/4 tsp powdered eggshell Enough water, or homemade chicken broth(straight chicken, no spices, veg, etc) to make a soupy texture Puree all of the above together, freeze in ice cube trays, baggie cubes after frozen Pick up his kibble an hour or so before putting the soup down. Try to play or engage him, too, anything to work up an appetite. Let him, right now, just explore it. If some time goes by and he doesn't seem that interested, you can dab some on his mouth or paw (whichever he is likely to lick clean) to get him to taste. As for the humdrum "business" side of the switch. I prefer frequent checkins, daily or every other day, but I completely understand when that's not possible. Things happen If it's going to be an extended absence (week or what not), just let me know either in this thread or in a pm, whatever suits. I also like weekly health logs - weight, energy, temperament, poos, food consumption. And anything else that you might want to bring up. That part's easier to forget, so if it slips your mind, I'll just through a reminder out, no worries
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 10:49:52 GMT -5
Hello Annie! My name is Mary. I see from the bottom of your post that you recently lost Pixie. I am so sorry. She must have been a special ferret, even more special than a regular ferret because all ferrets are special. Since I signed up Tomo and I have been striking out on our own and made quite a bit of progress so let me update you. I bought the stuff for the soup on 4/4 and he weighed 550-575gms (he's hard to weigh on my kitchen scale). I started feeding him the soup but I didn't put broth in it so it was a thick paste. I mixed the soup with the canned he was already eating. I also gave him a fuzzy each day and cut it up less each day until he would eat it whole. On 4/11 I weighed him again and he weighed 750gm! I have a picture of him I took that day. We kept on with the soup but I made it more chunky and started giving him some bone pieces like parts of chicken neck and wing. I also bought some little dried anchovies and some whole smelt at the asian market (I think they are smelt, couldn't read the package cuz it was in korean). On 4/18 he weighed 850 gms. I couldn't get a picture because he won't hold still at all. His energy is insane! Sometimes his poo is a little runny but his coat looks fantastic. Tried him on some cubed pork yesterday and he ate it up. He eats A LOT. I get the feeling if I put a whole chicken in there it would be gone by next feeding time. I have created a monster!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 15:08:57 GMT -5
Yes, sadly I lost my Pixie on the first of the this month - and you're right, she was my heart-ferret, and meant the world to me, and her business. I really, really appreciate the kind words. Wow, though! You have made so much progress! In order to gain a better picture of what he's getting can you tell me what's in the soup, how often he gets it and what constitutes his other meals? (is he still getting kibble?) And hahahaha, there's a reason kits are called "stomachs with teeth." They live to EAT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 23:11:26 GMT -5
I made a bunch of the soup from the recipe posted on the forum with chicken meat, heart and liver plus ground egg shell. I usually buy whole chickens and cut them up for us humans, make broth with the carcass and give the giblets to the dog so its easy for me to buy an extra one to cut up for Tomo. I really like the ease of feeding the little cubes and feeling like they are fairly balanced nutritionally. But it seems like that is a transition stage for most people. I read about people just giving their ferrets pork chops and things.
I was feeding him the cubes of "soup" along with a fuzzy and about a tsp of cooked squash each day. A couple times a week I gave him some fish. They are small, about the size of a sardine and have all the guts. I feed him in the morning and at night with free choice of kibble.
A few days ago I stopped giving him kibble because he was ignoring it and I'm trying to give him enough raw food to last til the next feeding. I have also started giving him the chicken back pieces that I cut up. They have bone in and he seems to handle them fine.
I ran out of fuzzies and probably won't be able to get more til next month. I am hoping to work him up to whole mice and feed a couple a week if I can get a good price.
So this is the part I need help with. Coming up with the weekly menu. He is a pretty enthusiastic eater at this point and I don't mind doing the preparation. I just need to know how much of what how often.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 0:26:27 GMT -5
The thing to remember, when feeding whole prey and raw, is variety. For whole prey, it can mean different animals and different ages. Since whole prey is the foundation of his diet (really, just a supplement), giving him a variety of mice at different ages would be good. Each age has different nutrients - if you look at the nutritional whole prey charts, you'll see young mice tend to have more iron and such, but adults have more calcium, etc, so getting him up to adults is great, but keeping that variety is essential as well.
For the raw diet, the requirements are: at the minimum 3 different protein sources. 8-9 raw, meaty bone meals (the bones have to be edible to the ferret. You'll find that - besides pork button bones - that beef and pork, as well as weight bearing bones - legs, etc - are not completely edible, so don't count as an RMB meal, but as a meat meal). The rest of the meals should consist of 1-2 heart meals, 1 or 2 organ meals (depends. Some people prefer to break the organ meals into a liver day, and a "other organ" day. Some feed both at once. Totally up to you) - organ should consist of 2 oz liver and 2 oz some other organ (kidney, brain, anything that secretes). The rest are meat meals.
The soup is balanced as is. And while it is considered a transitional thing, a lot of ferrents will have a soup day, or feed a bit of it each day. It's just some extra nutrition, and it keeps it in the fuzzy memory, so that if they get sick or otherwise go off their food, you have something they know and like as a back up that is easily swallowed and digested and that can be syringe fed (if needed).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 18:49:14 GMT -5
Okay, so I have some questions. If I go with chicken as a main food then the chicken bones will be his bone source mostly. Mice and the little fish I have don't have a lot of bone. About the fish--how often? Once a week for fish? Also--if I feed him some of the soup on a regular basis, do the organs and heart in it count or should I also give some liver and heart as a separate meal during the week? Can I feed chicken heart, liver and gizzard for organ meat plus the organ meat he will get in his mice and fish or do I have to look for beef or pork organ meat too? I would rather feed him meat that he would conceivably eat in the wild. He may think he can take down a cow, but realistically, I doubt it. Last question--how much is a "meal" 4 oz? Last night I gave him a chicken neck, a wing tip and a gizzard and it lasted him through the night--first time I've given him enough I guess. Honestly--where does he fit it? He's not that big!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 19:12:02 GMT -5
Having chicken be a staple BONE source is fine (also cornish game hens/rock hens are wonderful, and genetics does consider them separate), you just have to use the other meals to provide more variety. In this case, getting beef/pork organs would be wonderful, since it is going to be different, not just chicken, chicken, chicken, other source, chicken, other source, chicken .... and on. For fish, that is given sparingly, because the toxins that are found in it (usually wild caught) can build up, usually every two weeks is good, really. For the organs, you might have to play with numbers. Using soup with organ is not going to count as a complete meal for the week, since the #s aren't high enough, and heart doesn't count as organ, and with only a couple heart in the soup, it won't count as a heart meal either. So feed your soup and your mice, and maybe cut the organ meals so that it's a 1.75 oz (or 1/2 the size [or slightly more than 1/2, depending] of a chicken liver), and see how Tomo does. One week having a bit less and one week a bit more than the last time won't hurt, it'll balance in the end. Generally, males eat 3-6 ozs (generally staying in the 3-4 oz range) a day. For a kit? That's out the window. They eat when they're hungry, and sometimes they can eat 3-4 times a day. This is exaggerated, too, on a raw diet. When he hits the later months of his first year, he'll slow down, and you can really get him settled into the twice a day, standard sized feedings, so don't really worry about ounces, just worry about how he's doing. Are you giving enough that he has a *small* stash left at his next feeding? If so, that's great for him. If he finishes and is out, feed more the next time. (personally, I don't weigh or anything anymore, though I know numbers can be comforting when first starting out). His weight is another indicator - even visually keeping an eye out for extreme gains or losses or maintenance will let you know, especially looking at him from a bird's eye - standing up and looking down at him while he's on the floor. Be careful, though, and check hidey holes and the area he roams! If you're ever concerned about the amount he's putting away, he might be stashing more of it in places you don't expect! Nothing's funner than finding the desiccated remains of a meal given days or weeks ago I once found a dried out lower jaw of a rabbit stashed in my babies' box maze, ugh.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 11:07:37 GMT -5
This morning Tomo weighed in at about 950 gm so his weight gain over the last couple of weeks has been consistent. I got a pic of him and I will try to get it and the others uploaded soon. Last night I fed him a few 1" x 1" bone in chunks of chicken from the breast. I took the breasts off for a meal for us so it wasn't a ton of meat. There were still two chunks of four left this morning. I worry that he doesn't process the big chunks well enough and that I should go back to some soup. I don't want to baby him too much but I don't want to rush him either. (?) I will get some beef liver, they have that at the grocery store. I live in the country and have friends that raise cows so if I tell them I want the parts they don't eat they will save them for me when they butcher. So fish not often, how about egg? I've heard only once a week and only the yolk?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 13:04:28 GMT -5
Something else--chicken feet. I have some and I think they are really nasty but I guess they are good for you...but where do they fit in the diet? Are they bone in? It seems like they are all bone and skin, not much meat there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2012 20:52:51 GMT -5
As for the chunks - it might be because he had a big meal before. They will find their rhythm, and they won't always need to eat. Though he's young, and voracious, even kits will need to fast, or semi fast (it helps ... "reset" their bodies), so don't worry if he eats lightly or even skips a meal now and then as long as his temperament and such stay the same.
If you are worried, though, you can make them slightly smaller (not much, he's fully capable of eating a 1x1" chunk, as long as the bone isn't a weight bearing bone), and keep him there for a few days and build him up to the size you want.
Chicken feet are GREAT, especially for ferty joints and such, they actually do have a lot of nutrients, but they're about a once a week meal. For eggs, you can give yolk and the whites once a week. It's best if you can powder the eggshell and add in too - what you have to be careful of is the albumen in the whites. Generally, if you feed the whole egg (shell and all) it's more balanced and that risk of them getting too much of it is reduced.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2012 22:27:25 GMT -5
He's eating the chunks now but you are soooo right about the skipping meal thing and the hiding food thing. I usually put his food up when I let him out so that he can't do that but I forgot one time. For the last couple days I smelled something nasty when I went to bed (one of his stashing spots is under my bed). I didn't have time to go hunting til tonight and I found a nasty smelly piece of chicken UNDER MY BED!!! He has been so naughty this week , digging in my plants, stealing my socks, hiding my balls of yarn. But he's so stinkin cute while doing it that I can't really get mad. So when he doesn't eat much do I leave it there or throw it out and give him fresh at the next meal time?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2012 8:31:59 GMT -5
Ahahahahaha, their utter charm is the only thing working for them some days, you're right (though Tomo sounds so, so darn cute!). But, left overs should get thrown out at the next meal when they're found. There's always going to be a situation or two where something goes undiscovered til much later (just the name of the game), and it's alright - raw, minimally processed meat generally goes dry and jerkified before it goes rancid (though you will find the exceptions, even ferrets won't tend to go for THAT, when they actually get around to wanting to eat it. Animals tend to have a pretty good sense about what will and will not harm them. At least when it comes to food.) My guys have even stashed old, dried bones (a bigger no no than meat), and have cracked into them with no harm. I take them away when I see, but things do slip by sometimes
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2012 12:08:12 GMT -5
I think I'm starting to get a handle on this. I've been keeping track of each meal and I'm writing up a menu. I think it will be easiest if I feed certain meals on certain days, like heart on Sunday and Thursday, organ on Tuesday, and so forth. Tomo is very cute, we don't recall our other ferrets being so playful and energetic, even as kits. I think it must be the diet. The thing I like most about him is that he is so friendly with everyone, our dog, out cats and everyone who comes to the house. He lives up to his name--it means friend or companion in Japanese. Thanks so much for giving your time to help us! Next question--ground beef? I can get grass fed hamburger (for free ). Is it good for boneless meals?
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