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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2013 5:25:44 GMT -5
Apparently it's a whole raw chicken... don't think feathers are included.
I gave him some lamb kidney today, he sniffed and licked it but wasn't sure.
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Post by katt on Feb 1, 2013 4:20:42 GMT -5
Oh that's good it if is whole chicken. That would count as a "whole prey" item then as far as your menu goes. If he doesn't seem to care for the kidney, you can hide it in a soup. Whatever kind of soup he likes, and blend some kidney into it. Gradually increase the amount of kidney while decreasing the other meat(s) until it is mostly to entirely pureed kidney. AND/OR: You can slowly add chunks, and increase the chunks while decreasing the soup. Essentially like a mini-switch. This can be used to introduce any new flavor he isn't sure about. As long as you have access to liver, kidney, and the whole-chicken mince you should be okay on organs. Though more variety is always better, sometimes that's all that people can find. If you come across brain, stomach wall, uterus, spleen, pancreas, etc those are all great organ meats.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2013 5:15:32 GMT -5
He did end up eating the kidney. Also I can get livers and kidneys from chicken and from lamb. Though not regularly. If I see it I'll stock up. Are brains good? I sometimes see them.
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Post by katt on Feb 1, 2013 13:21:02 GMT -5
Brains are very good. They are super nutritious, and they are really high in taurine. I'm glad he ate the kidney for you! Could you give me a list of all of the meats he is eating now? How is he doing with the bones?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2013 18:49:50 GMT -5
Here's a list of things he will eat, but I don't yet have a proper menu for him where he eats this stuff on a regular basis, other than the mince which I rotate. Mince: Whole chicken mince (including bones and organs). Beef/Kangaroo mince (including bones and organs.) Kangaroo mince (very lean meat apparently). Liver from chickens. Lamb kidneys [I've managed to get chicken kidneys in the past but for CJ not for him, so I'll keep an eye out for them] Lamb heart
Turkey mince (human grade, so no organs) Chicken flesh on the bone and off. He'll now rip the meat off a drumstick. Chicken necks Pork flesh, human grade Beef (but it made him have a rumbly tummy) My attempts at duck soup and 'soupies' using the recipe from this forum. Pumpkin Fish such as sardines, though I have to mix it in with other stuff. Salmon and prawns, haha...
Most of it he will now accept in chunks or even big bits. I'm so proud.
I've caught him chewing on the chicken necks too, so hopefully that is cleaning his teeth.
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Post by katt on Feb 2, 2013 15:26:26 GMT -5
Here's a list of things he will eat, but I don't yet have a proper menu for him where he eats this stuff on a regular basis, other than the mince which I rotate. Mince: Whole chicken mince (including bones and organs). Beef/Kangaroo mince (including bones and organs.) Kangaroo mince (very lean meat apparently). Liver from chickens. Lamb kidneys [I've managed to get chicken kidneys in the past but for CJ not for him, so I'll keep an eye out for them] Lamb heart
Turkey mince (human grade, so no organs) Chicken flesh on the bone and off. He'll now rip the meat off a drumstick. Chicken necks Pork flesh, human grade Beef (but it made him have a rumbly tummy) My attempts at duck soup and 'soupies' using the recipe from this forum. Pumpkin Fish such as sardines, though I have to mix it in with other stuff. Salmon and prawns, haha...
Most of it he will now accept in chunks or even big bits. I'm so proud.
I've caught him chewing on the chicken necks too, so hopefully that is cleaning his teeth.
Oh good! You have a great variety so far! Are you able to find out what the bone and organ content is of the beef and kangaroo mince meats? If not it's not a huge deal, but it will be very helpful when constructing a menu for helping to figure out the proper ratios of meats. Here is something to consider in the meanwhile. The overall diet should consist of about 10% organ (5% liver, 5% other organs), 10% heart, 10-15% bone, and the rest is all muscle meat. The idea is to mimic a whole prey diet as closely as possible. In the wild they would eat a mix of primarily whole prey items, along with the occasional carrion. SO. With that in mind, I would say that your whole chicken mince counts as a whole prey item because it is a whole chicken. The kangaroo and beef are if not whole prey contents, are pretty close since they have both bones and organs. With that in mind, your menu should have about 10% organ and 10% heart outside of those meats. I would keep the heart on the slightly higher side because taurine is so vital to their health and neurological well being. I'd try to shoot for at least one full meal of heart a week, maybe 1.5. For the organs and bones think of the remaining meals, and what 10% of that would be. Normally THIS is what I recommend: For a 14 meal week (2 meals a day), 10% is one and a half meals. So normally on a frankenprey diet a ferret should get 1.5 meals organ (half liver, half other organs), 1.5 meals heart, and then 7-9 meals containing edible bone. You have some organ and bone in the mince meats. So let's say you feed 4 meals a week of the mince. That leaves 10 meals of other foods that need to be balanced. 10% is going to be one meal, so he should still get one meal of organs, one of hearts. And for teeth cleaning as well as bone content, I'd shoot for at least around 4-5 bone-in meals.****Each ferret is a little different in their need for bones, play with it a bit and watch his poops. If they are too soft, he needs bones more often. Same with the organs since we don't know the exact organ content of the mince meats - if his poops are frequently dark and soft, you may want to cut back a little on the extra organs.**** That's just one example. If you fed mince 8 meals of the week, it would be different. The key is to maintain the 10% organ, 10-15% bone, 10% heart ratio. I would play it on the safe side and NOT assume that the beef and kangaroo minces contain heart unless you find out otherwise and feed 1 full meal of heart meat regardless of how many mince meals you offer a week. Hope that is helpful!
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Post by katt on Feb 2, 2013 15:26:47 GMT -5
I may not be around on Monday, just a heads up. My interview is Tues (for Med school) so Monday night after work I am going to be a bit busy panicking and trying to study up on last minute healthcare tidbits. If you have a question that you want answered before Tuesday, please send Heather or Sherry a PM. I'll be here today, Sunday, and Tues for sure though.
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Post by katt on Feb 2, 2013 15:28:27 GMT -5
Here is some info that I always post towards the end of switches to help with menu making. Some of it will be repetitive, but there's some good info in the next 2 posts. Hopefully parts of it are helpful for beginning to construct your menu. For balance, a raw diet for a ferret should consist of the following ratios: Muscle Meat 75-80% (approximately 10% of which should be heart, gizzards should also be included in the muscle meat) Organs: 10% (half of this should be liver, and half should consist of other organs such as kidney, spleen, brain, stomach, reproductive organs, etc. Organ meat is, in ferret diet terms, classified as any major hormone producing tissue in the body) Edible Bone: 10-15% (please note the use of the word edible. Any bones left uneaten - such as large bones - cannot be included in the % bone in the diet) For Variety: Your ferret should regularly receive a bare minimum of 3 proteins. However, the more variety you can offer the better. Even mixing in new meats on occasion is better than never, some meats are seasonal so we understand that you may nto be able to feed everything in the menu year-round. A minimum of 3 proteins should be fed year-round (for example, pork, chicken, and beef). Most meats sold as fit for human consumption are okay to feed ferrets as long as they are NOT processed, seasoned, or injected with saline (read labels carefully). Also, some meats not “fit” for human consumption can bed fed as well, these include meats such as commercial raw made just for pets, whole prey, butcher scraps etc. Ferrets should NEVER be fed processed meats, seasoned/flavored meats, meats with additives, meats injected with saline to preserve freshness. Below is a list of food suggestions: Check Asian markets, Halal meat markets (African markets), other ethnic markets, and butchers. You can always ask if anyone can save scraps or special order for you. The organs I usually find are: beef liver pork liver pork kidney chicken liver Then when I get whole ducks and rabbits from the Asian market they have the organs in them still. Look around too for a pet store that carries commercially ground raw meats. These are a GREAT way to add variety as they often have proteins that you won't find in the store, and they usually have organ, heart, and bones ground into them (but not always so be sure to check). I can get commercial ground: pheasant, rabbit, chicken (Koda can't eat this), turkey, beef (also a no-no for Koda), bison, quail, tripe. Also if you have trouble finding anything, there are other routes you can take. There are some places online where you can order commercially ground organ meat patties and such, and Worst case scenario, there are supplements that can help fill in the gaps but that is a last resort. OK for variety here are some ideas. Pretty much any meat you can get your hands on is ok for them: chicken turkey pork beef (also veal) bison (buffalo) rabbit duck pheasant quail venison and game meats rodent cornish game hen moose goose lamb goat fish (mackerel, salmon, halibut, goldfish, etc also, fish oil is very good for them) Start trying to add in as many new meats as you can find. The more variety the better! Also, seeing as how it is unrealistic to keep an entire farm in your freezer start just trying to locate new meats so that you have an idea of what you have access to, and where you can find what. When you find them feel free to try them out! Some parts that are good to have of all of the above animals: heart (is a muscle meat but vital for the taurine) liver kidney spleen tongue (is a muscle meat) brain (VERY nutritious organ meat - high in taurine) gizzards (is a muscle meat - great for cleaning teeth) chicken feet (good bone source - i.e. for a bone-in meat you could feet pork chops and chicken feet) necks (also a good bone source) ribs (pork ribs have edible bones - usually that is right on the line of thickest bones they can eat, some ferrets can handle pork ribs other can't, or at least don't, eat the bones, but they can often still get the marrow out depending on the cut) For weight gain if you ever need it, look around for some pork side, pork belly (not stomach, but the meat), or uncured bacon. It is all essentially the same thing - very fatty pieces of pork. Duck is also high in fat. In some places Duck is seasonal, but I find that my Asian market carries it year round. Their diet should be pretty high in fat naturally so unless you are feeding fatty meats as their primary diet you shouldn't have to worry about them being too fattening. If anything they make up for the leanness of chicken. Here are some menus from graduated mentees... Feed them heart at least 1-2 times a week so that they are getting the taurine that they need. And organs should be 10% of the diet. Ideally the organ meat should be half liver, and the other half a variety of things such as: kidney, spleen, and brain.
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Post by katt on Feb 2, 2013 15:28:54 GMT -5
Here are some example menus. Your final menu should look something like these... SUNDAY: AM- Cornish Hen: Wings , rib cage and diced meat PM- elk tendons and commerical Duck patties (pretty sure the Duck patties have bone in them, not sure about organs - yet to pick them up) MONDAY: AM - Organs (chicken liver, hopefully other types of liver, beef organ patties eventually and pork brain - what other organs do they need? spleen? kidney?) And I realize they are going to have nasty poops ;D Do I give a whole bunch of organs at once or alternate them each week? Is it better to split this into two meals? PM - Cornish Hen: Legs, back and diced meat (basically the rest of the cornish hen from Sunday) TUESDAY: AM - Pork Muscle Meat (depending on what I have on hand this will be one or more of the following: pork tenderloin, pork chops, pork ribs - they don't really eat the bones so it counts as muscle meat, pork belly sliced - it looks like unseasoned bacon, the closest thing I could find to what you described) PM - Hearts and chicken necks(Chicken hearts for now, but hopefully I can get pork and beef hearts too) WEDNESDAY: AM - Goat meat (stewing goat chunks/some bone, commercial ground goat/includes organs) PM - Chicken wings and chicken backs THURSDAY: AM - Turkey Necks and split turkey wings PM - Hearts and chicken gizzards(hopefully a different kind of heart from what they had earlier in the week) FRIDAY: AM - Lamb meat and bones (commercial ground lamb/includes organs, and lamb bones to chew on - don't think they can eat these, just suck the marrow out) PM - Whole Quail (bone in) cut into smaller chunksSATURDAY: AM - Hearts (hopefully different from whatever kind of hearts they got earlier in the week - if I could go pork hearts one meal, chicken hearts one meal and beef hearts one meal I think I'd be set and wouldn't have to supplement with Taurine? Or should I get taurine supplements anyways?) PM - Commerical rabbit meat (ground carcass with bone- I too think this includes organs but let me know if you find out) I do want to get Beef in there somewhere too once I can get them eating it. I actually bought veal cutlets and am going to try them with veal first and then work my way up to the beef ;D Also possibly work frozen thawed mice in eventually, but I think for now that's a decent menu? Would this be a little better? MONDAY -Chicken wings -Turkey neck TUESDAY -Pork chops -Liver and hearts WEDNESDAY -Quail -Turkey breasts THURSDAY -Hearts, gizzards and kidney/liver -Lamb FRIDAY -Veal and liver -Chicken ribs SATURDAY -Rabbit meat -Chicken wings SUNDAY -Chicken legs -Pork chunks I'll try getting in some more variety, if I can find goat, buffalo, duck, etc...I'll add some in there! I could also try giving them a rat or a mouse here and there but I'm not too comfortable with seeing a ripped open mouse in my cage just yet. ;D When I get more comfortable with prey, I can get some frozen rabbits at my reptile store, I'm sure they would enjoy that. Just a few examples. The ratios should be roughly (as a reminder) 10-15% bone, 10% organ (at least half liver), and 75-80% muscle meat (including heart, and gizzards). Ok a few things. You are still going to need more bone in the diet. Think of how much bone is in each bony item and how that compares to the amount of meat in overall mass. Then shoot for 10-15% bone. Also, just because a bone is not edible does not mean that you cannot offer it, it just means that it doesn't "count." I give my boys pork chops and they will often eat the smaller pieces of bone and suck the marrow out of the thicker parts. It is still good for them to chew on as long as it is not too heavy (beef bones are typically a no-no, most pork bones are okay). With the bigger bones just be sure to remove them after 24 hours as they will begin to dry out and they can crack their teeth on them. Your heart ratios look a bit better. I would make sure that the liver is a significant portion of the meal that day too. If it helps you any (I know it makes it easier for me) think of it this way... 7 days a week x 2 meals a day=> 1 meals a day. So ONE whole meal is going to be slightly less than 10%. 7 days a week x 3 meals a day=> 2 full meals is going to equal almost exactly 10%. They need organ 10-15% bone 10-15% and the remainder should be muscle meat - gizzards and heart are both muscles, and heart should be a significant portion of that. I'd try to shoot for about 10% heart - so 2 meals a week - at least. As long as their poops are solid, more heart never hurts. So as a ROUGH GUIDE: FOURTEEN MEALS One meal organs (1/2 liver, ½ other organ) One meal half heart, half liver One meal hearts The rest of the meals should be mostly muscle meat, including heart, gizzard, and BONE. Let me know if you have any questions on any of that!
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Post by katt on Feb 2, 2013 15:29:29 GMT -5
Oh wow, a lot of those disappeared.... I'll try to figure out how to fix it later.
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Post by katt on Feb 4, 2013 18:35:44 GMT -5
Just checking in. I probably won't be on again until after my interview tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 18:40:21 GMT -5
That's alright. Did you sort out the things that disappeared? I can't tell. I don't know if I have anything to report. Nibbler likes drinking blood, he's a little vampire. I gave him a fat slice of heart with some beef/kangaroo mince meat and he went for the heart first which is good. I haven't been bothering to cut up the heart other than cutting the massive lamb's heart into three or four slices, and I've been giving him the kidneys whole. He seems to enjoy it.
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Post by katt on Feb 6, 2013 21:11:17 GMT -5
Here are some example menus. Your final menu should look something like these... SUNDAY: AM- Cornish Hen: Wings , rib cage and diced meat PM- elk tendons and commerical Duck patties (pretty sure the Duck patties have bone in them, not sure about organs - yet to pick them up) MONDAY: AM - Organs (chicken liver, hopefully other types of liver, beef organ patties eventually and pork brain - what other organs do they need? spleen? kidney?) And I realize they are going to have nasty poops ;D Do I give a whole bunch of organs at once or alternate them each week? Is it better to split this into two meals? PM - Cornish Hen: Legs, back and diced meat (basically the rest of the cornish hen from Sunday) TUESDAY: AM - Pork Muscle Meat (depending on what I have on hand this will be one or more of the following: pork tenderloin, pork chops, pork ribs - they don't really eat the bones so it counts as muscle meat, pork belly sliced - it looks like unseasoned bacon, the closest thing I could find to what you described) PM - Hearts and chicken necks(Chicken hearts for now, but hopefully I can get pork and beef hearts too) WEDNESDAY: AM - Goat meat (stewing goat chunks/some bone, commercial ground goat/includes organs) PM - Chicken wings and chicken backs THURSDAY: AM - Turkey Necks and split turkey wings PM - Hearts and chicken gizzards(hopefully a different kind of heart from what they had earlier in the week) FRIDAY: AM - Lamb meat and bones (commercial ground lamb/includes organs, and lamb bones to chew on - don't think they can eat these, just suck the marrow out) PM - Whole Quail (bone in) cut into smaller chunksSATURDAY: AM - Hearts (hopefully different from whatever kind of hearts they got earlier in the week - if I could go pork hearts one meal, chicken hearts one meal and beef hearts one meal I think I'd be set and wouldn't have to supplement with Taurine? Or should I get taurine supplements anyways?) PM - Commerical rabbit meat (ground carcass with bone- I too think this includes organs but let me know if you find out) I do want to get Beef in there somewhere too once I can get them eating it. I actually bought veal cutlets and am going to try them with veal first and then work my way up to the beef ;D Also possibly work frozen thawed mice in eventually, but I think for now that's a decent menu? Okay sounds good, I added more bone to the menu, I was so glad to hear that I could use them more than once For some reason some meats (even the obvious ones) are hard to find here Oh well, let me know what you think, again Fifth ferret menu.Monday: turkey breast, turkey necks, heart Tuesday: gizzards, pork loin chop meat, chicken wings Wednesday: chicken feet, salmon Thursday: heart, veal- only meat, chicken drumstick or thigh (bone broken up) Friday: liver, chicken ribs Saturday: heart, chicken or turkey neck Sunday: chicken wings, heart, and beef sirloin I will also switch out some of these meats for bison, lamb, and other fish (such as whitefish, halibut, and tilapia) I noticed the local market has duck feet and head, as well as pig face which appears to have meat, fat, skin, and cartilage. My fuzzes already love eating the bones in chicken feet so I bet duck feet would be a no-brainer. I could incorporate those, to get this: Third draft: Monday morning - Mousey (whole, jumbo mice) Monday night - Rabbit legs or ribcage (I forget which I have left) Tuesday morning - Chicken hearts Tuesday night - Chicken wings Wednesday morning - Turkey neck Wednesday night - Turkey back and ribs Thursday morning - Duck hearts with chicken feet Thursday night - Pig heart with chicken feet Friday morning - Chicken back & breast Friday night - Pig face Saturday morning - Beef heart with duck feet Saturday night - Beef heart with duck feet Sunday morning - Chicken liver & gizzard Sunday night - Turkey liver & gizzard What do you think? Today is beef chunks and some left over ground turkey. There is some pork on sale for $1.29 a lb, so I am going to pick some of that up this weekend. I'm not sure if you saw my "Diet of mostly rodents" thread. I definitely want to do mostly whole prey eventually. The cost right now isn't necessarily feasible, but that is my eventual goal. With my girls pickiness, I don't think large whole prey will be an option for a bit. If I just put a rabbit in front of them they will pick and choose what they want. But with smaller whole prey, that is much harder What do you think of this diet: Monday: Mice Tuesday: Rats Wednesday: Bone in meal Thursday: Hamsters Friday: Gerbils Saturday: Bone in meal + extra organs Sunday: Bone out meal Would this be a little better? MONDAY -Chicken wings -Turkey neck TUESDAY -Pork chops -Liver and hearts WEDNESDAY -Quail -Turkey breasts THURSDAY -Hearts, gizzards and kidney/liver -Lamb FRIDAY -Veal and liver -Chicken ribs SATURDAY -Rabbit meat -Chicken wings SUNDAY -Chicken legs -Pork chunks I'll try getting in some more variety, if I can find goat, buffalo, duck, etc...I'll add some in there! I could also try giving them a rat or a mouse here and there but I'm not too comfortable with seeing a ripped open mouse in my cage just yet. ;D When I get more comfortable with prey, I can get some frozen rabbits at my reptile store, I'm sure they would enjoy that. Just a few examples. The ratios should be roughly (as a reminder) 10-15% bone, 10% organ (at least half liver), and 75-80% muscle meat (including heart, and gizzards). Ok a few things. You are still going to need more bone in the diet. Think of how much bone is in each bony item and how that compares to the amount of meat in overall mass. Then shoot for 10-15% bone. Also, just because a bone is not edible does not mean that you cannot offer it, it just means that it doesn't "count." I give my boys pork chops and they will often eat the smaller pieces of bone and suck the marrow out of the thicker parts. It is still good for them to chew on as long as it is not too heavy (beef bones are typically a no-no, most pork bones are okay). With the bigger bones just be sure to remove them after 24 hours as they will begin to dry out and they can crack their teeth on them. Your heart ratios look a bit better. I would make sure that the liver is a significant portion of the meal that day too. If it helps you any (I know it makes it easier for me) think of it this way... 7 days a week x 2 meals a day=> 1 meals a day. So ONE whole meal is going to be slightly less than 10%. 7 days a week x 3 meals a day=> 2 full meals is going to equal almost exactly 10%. They need organ 10-15% bone 10-15% and the remainder should be muscle meat - gizzards and heart are both muscles, and heart should be a significant portion of that. I'd try to shoot for about 10% heart - so 2 meals a week - at least. As long as their poops are solid, more heart never hurts. So as a ROUGH GUIDE: FOURTEEN MEALS One meal organs (1/2 liver, ½ other organ) One meal half heart, half liver One meal hearts The rest of the meals should be mostly muscle meat, including heart, gizzard, and BONE. Let me know if you have any questions on any of that!
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Post by katt on Feb 6, 2013 21:12:10 GMT -5
There were some menus missing for some reason. You can use those as a guideline to start working on making a menu so you can graduate.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2013 22:29:28 GMT -5
I found some lamb fry today!
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