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Post by Sherry on Aug 29, 2015 11:17:31 GMT -5
My vet is the most experienced and successful in treating right gland adrenal around. Her survival rate for surgeries are really high. She uses cryosurgery which has a better outcome than ligation. The reason she is hesitant is that over the many years she has been a ferret specific vet she has NOT seen overall higher survival rates with surgery vs medical treatment and has come to the conclusion of why put them through the stress of a surgery when they are simply going to a) develop the disease again, and b) not live any longer than they would have otherwise. So do NOT assume vets who have become reluctant to do the adrenal surgery are being "lazy" or "protecting their practice". Because that is dead wrong. They simply prefer to look to the well being of the animal AND the owner's pocketbook. And given how many in the fb group were telling you the exact same thing @albusandthefuzzbutts, I would really appreciate you not trying to defame the vets we use.
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Post by Samantha :) on Aug 29, 2015 12:20:58 GMT -5
Sherry you seem very knowledgeable and I appreciate all your advice. I'm always nervous putting my ferret under for any reason, so I'm going to see what the vet says but I think the non surgical route is what I'm leaning towards.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 16:49:34 GMT -5
My vet is the most experienced and successful in treating right gland adrenal around (not sure where you are located or what around means, but why listen to just the local?). Her survival rate (ferret survival rates are always high unless you are performing an unusually abnormal amount of delicate procedures- which adrenal removal is not outside of the VCL I mentioned) for surgeries are really high. She uses cryosurgery which has a better outcome than ligation. BASED ON THIS COMMENT I ASSUME YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF A VENA CAVA LIGATION (AND TO DEGREE TUMOR GROWTH IN GENERAL), AND ITS' NECESSITY: IT IS THE ONLY OPTION IN CERTAIN CASES AND CRYO WILL DO NOTHING...also your vet isn't special b/c of this...most vets out west use cryo and have been for years as my 1st had adrenal his removed with cryo in 2000...so not a big dealThe reason she is hesitant is that over the many years she has been a ferret specific vet she has NOT seen overall higher survival rates with surgery vs medical treatment and has come to the conclusion of why put them through the stress of a surgery when they are simply going to a) (maybe say possibly here...i've added context below) develop the disease again, (complete conjecture) and b) not live any longer than they would have otherwise. (this is a localized view without the backing of research)...but what about quality of life?So do NOT assume (I can assume what I want...it's called an opion (which we are here to share) and drawing conclusions, you did it above so I am not allowed...doesn't seem fair does it?) vets who have become reluctant to do the adrenal surgery are being "lazy" or "protecting their practice" (do you feel this is entirely false, partially false, or true?). Because that is dead wrong (PROVE IT). THIS IS A MATTER OF RISK V REWARD, AND VETS WHO ARE TREATING SYMPTOMS AND NOT THE DISEASE ARE NOT IN IT FOR THE PATIENTS, OR THEY ARE IGNORING RESEARCH...NEITHER IS A VERY GOOD SCENARIO They simply prefer to look to the well being of the animal AND the owner's pocketbook. (actually the concurrent conditions that befall an animal with a growing tumor requires much additional care- this was also discussed in Shoemakers research)..and is also more likely to be determined based on the cost of your vets procedures b/c all vets have different cost system...2 des implants = 1 surgery for my vet...what about yours?And given how many (so if more than one person disagrees with you you are automatically wrong?) in the fb group were telling you the exact same thing @albusandthefuzzbutts, I would really appreciate you not trying to defame the vets we use. Posted by your own administrator.....YOUR OWN ADMINISTRATOR!"Surgery The most effective treatment is to surgically remove the abnormal adrenal gland. Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/18924/adrenal?page=2#ixzz3kErL7bJ1" First let me say: bilateral (both at the exact same time- VERY RARE) engagement from adrenal tumor is one case, left adrenal engagement is a separate case, and right adrenal engagement is a separate case. If you have a tumor on the left, that is one diagosis. If the right adrenal gland has a tumor, this is one diagnosis. If both adrenals are tumorous (at the exact same time), this is one diagnosis. Getting your left (or right) removed, and then later the right (or now left) getting a tumor is in no way related unless the first one metasiticizes. This is why early recognition is so important because surgery is THE ONLY WAY TO PREVENT THIS. If you remove one before it's cancerous...you have cured the patient of that diagnosis, period. If you remove it after it is cancerous, which is a possiblity in all animal patients, then there is risk of transference. This is not something a test can/will tell you. Unfortunately its a risk you take for the chance to cure. If you do nothing however, other than symptom treatment, the tumor will grow...it will not stop. Tumors can grow through viens, into other glands and effect their output and eventually rupture (see below). If they are cancerous as well, they spread through the various systems in the body (metastasize) which will cause much h*ll to these little babies systems (watch the surgery videos on line and here these vets talk about ferrets who only had injections but there tumors wreaked havoc inside the little bodies). How long does this take, it's a guessing game b/c there are NO studies here...and it'd be quite difficult to study as you can't control this environment. To defame someone you must name them, I named no one. If you are defending a vet I didn't name ask yourself why, you should be defending the process you believe in. I defend the process I believe in which is backed by study and science. It just so happens that my vet is writing the book on the process and teaching vets across the country what's right and what's wrong. So you can get as many people to gang up as you like (though some of them disagreed with your approach towards care BTW and PMd me thanking me for fighting the good fight), FB or anywhere else, that doesn't change the science. Science says one thing, and one thing only. The only cure (for one diagnosis) is surgery. To all who are reading: If you lost your hair and got a little snippy/snotty because of a tumor on your adrenal gland, would you rather rid yourself of THAT cancer (because recurrance = the same gland BUT a second occurance is a second disease) or take some medicine to grow your hairback and help you behave all the while allowing the tumor to do what it wants? Look at the links I posted earlier, there are some great photos of what a ruptured adrenal gland looks like. That's what happens when the tumor (cancerous or not) is not removed. It ruptures and spits blood (and cancer if it is cancerous) all through the body effecting other organs and making them cancerous. The quality of life, especially at the eventual end of life, is not even close to the same. THINK about what you are actually saying here Sherry. You are saying the manufacturer of the treatment you and your vet use, emphatically states there is only one cure for this disease, and you and your vet refuse this option. That's your right but you should have much more diplomacy in engaging members and tell them the facts, then your opinion, then why/how you came to that conclusion in spite of the facts. Going after a member for opening the door to fact just doesn't look good....it's all too defensive really. Shoemaker, whom I have met and discussed this with at length, who's study was used to shift the use of Deslorelin implants to ferrets (READ THE BOTTOM OF THE DESLORELIN IMPLANT BROCHURE), writes in that study how important it is NOT to remove surgery as a result of the success of his research. Just imagine if we were having this conversation about your medical doctor....try and relate. It's always important to read more. So listen to your vet, then ask them where their information comes from. Then read that. Then read more. Never stop reading. Just b/c your vet percieves it to be the same life expectancy with surgery v without, doesn't make it so. That's what large blind studies are for...not your local experience. If local experience were all anyone cared about we'd still think the world was flat. Get your hands on the research reports and studies (or ask your vet for them and to explain them to you (afterall don't you pay them to help you make an informed decision?)), where people are scrutinizing what the outcomes are. Not somewhere someone has a financial incentive...that just ruins the whole thing. IDK if your vet thinks something is best, great, but there is a conflict of interest, so ferret it out and use the available information, or a second opion to make the decision. Did you buy the first house you saw? First car? If someone else told you it was best for you, didn't you look in to that? So why do anything different here? Again there are vets out there currently writing the book on this terrible disease. I linked one of them. She will review your case for $50 and give a medical opinion and discuss it with your vet (and every vet she works with knows how important she is to the field and respects her opinion more than you'd believe). Nothing is more important than that. So if your fuzzies life is in your hands, get as much information as possible before making the decision. THERE IS ONLY ONE CURE, AND ours have been cured each time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 16:59:04 GMT -5
Disrespecting our Sherry is not acceptable @albusandthefuzzbutts. The forum willingly listens to all opinions, but we expect them to be in a mature and thoughtful debate. It is very easy to get caught up in an emotional outburst on a keyboard. This is not the place for that. We are kind and gentle and expect our members to always remain polite. Our first interest here will always be, what is best for the ferret. When someone wants to get their point across, we expect them to be thoughtful, polite and open minded. With that in mind, please find a more considerate way to state your case. Poncesmom
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 17:26:35 GMT -5
I am open to hear the parts you feel were disrepectful. Please quote and point out, thank you.
"She uses cryosurgery which has a better outcome than ligation. BASED ON THIS COMMENT I ASSUME YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF A VENA CAVA LIGATION (AND TO DEGREE TUMOR GROWTH IN GENERAL), AND ITS' NECESSITY:"
This is a factually incorrect statement in need of correcting, (there is no disrespect and the only place you could suspect such). When a tumor grows through the Vena Cava there is only one option, which I listed in my OP, and that is a VCL, vena cava ligation.
Reading print is challenging, one should not assume emotion is involved.
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Post by Samantha :) on Aug 29, 2015 17:28:32 GMT -5
The vet I originally took Ace to told me she felt all of aces symptoms were not adrenal, she believed it was just a neglect case. Shes a happy go lucky ferret, loves everyone (despite what she's been through ). The vet ruled her hair loss out as urine burn but I wanted a second opinion because I honestly didn't like the vet. I felt like she wouldn't answer my questions and wanted to push me out the door as fast as possible. I also heard negative reviews about the vet and the way they treated exotic clients. Anyway... next week ace goes in to a vet I feel comfortable with. The staff is friendly and knowledgeable. I've only had her for about 3/4 weeks but her hair is growing back with proper diet and care. She looks so funny in this regrowth stage! I'll keep everyone posted on how little Acers does and what course of action we take. I like what I've read about the DES implant. Am I correct that the DES implant is also used as a kind of preventive for Adrenal?
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Post by Celene on Aug 29, 2015 17:33:02 GMT -5
I also feel the need to point out, @albusandthefuzzbutts that while "Sherry's on administrator" did post that quote, she herself was quoting it from another website. I'm not going to indulge you in pointing out exactly where you were being disrespectful (in fact, it was the entire post, and your tone throughout it). I want only to say that Sherry is head boss around here and you'll notice folk respect her and will stick up for her. People have differences of opinion, even people who agree on most things can vehemently disagree on others. It's not about the ONE OPTION and what's "right" vs "wrong", it's more about equipping members with as much information as possible (both pros and cons of everything) so they can make their own informed decision.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 17:35:42 GMT -5
Samantha the Des implant has shown very good results when used very early in a ferrets life. www.westendanimal.com/id4.htmlThis page has 2 links that discuss the disease and the treament options. This is the vet I mentioned involved in the studies the manufacturer of the implant is conducting. She is using it as a preventative for 6mos and older ferrets, and has seen good results when it's used very early on in place of surgery. Read through the page, you will learn a good bit and your new vet will be happy you have informed yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 17:36:28 GMT -5
I also feel the need to point out, @albusandthefuzzbutts that while "Sherry's on administrator" did post that quote, she herself was quoting it from another website. I'm not going to indulge you in pointing out exactly where you were being disrespectful (in fact, it was the entire post, and your tone throughout it). I want only to say that @sherry is head boss around here and you'll notice folk respect her and will stick up for her. People have differences of opinion, even people who agree on most things can vehemently disagree on others. It's not about the ONE OPTION and what's "right" vs "wrong", it's more about equipping members with as much information as possible (both pros and cons of everything) so they can make their own informed decision. Tone is implied. Just because you projected a negative tone doesn't make it so. Thanks for you "piling on".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 17:38:51 GMT -5
Disrespecting our Sherry is not acceptable @albusandthefuzzbutts. The forum willingly listens to all opinions, but we expect them to be in a mature and thoughtful debate. It is very easy to get caught up in an emotional outburst on a keyboard. This is not the place for that. We are kind and gentle and expect our members to always remain polite. Our first interest here will always be, what is best for the ferret. When someone wants to get their point across, we expect them to be thoughtful, polite and open minded. With that in mind, please find a more considerate way to state your case. Poncesmom I agree. It also goes both ways. Thanks for the feedback.
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Post by Celene on Aug 29, 2015 17:41:52 GMT -5
- Excessive use of caps
- Red font
- Passive aggressive comments (which do not contribute to the message of your post)
- Direct insults of intelligence/experience
Perhaps I could be projecting one or two of those as I read, but all of them together? That's you, not me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 17:47:27 GMT -5
Certainly.
First of all, I hope you understand that this forum exists because of Sherry. We have the utmost respect for her and all of us will always stand beside her and defend her. Sherry has earned our respect, devotion and admiration. If you know Sherry, you know that she always means well and has a kind and loving heart.
BASED ON THIS COMMENT I ASSUME YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF A VENA CAVA LIGATION (AND TO DEGREE TUMOR GROWTH IN GENERAL), AND ITS' NECESSITY: IT IS THE ONLY OPTION IN CERTAIN CASES AND CRYO WILL DO NOTHING...also your vet isn't special b/c of this...most vets out west use cryo and have been for years as my 1st had adrenal his removed with cryo in 2000...so not a big deal
Simply put, Caps are yelling at someone.
(I can assume what I want...it's called an opion (which we are here to share) and drawing conclusions, you did it above so I am not allowed...doesn't seem fair does it?)
Of course you can have an opinion. We just want it to be polite and stated in a mature fashion.
(actually the concurrent conditions that befall an animal with a growing tumor requires much additional care- this was also discussed in Shoemakers research)..and is also more likely to be determined based on the cost of your vets procedures b/c all vets have different cost system...2 des implants = 1 surgery for my vet...what about yours? And given how many (so if more than one person disagrees with you you are automatically wrong?)
What about yours?? so, if more than one person disagrees with you, you are automatically wrong. I can guarantee that there are ways to ask this without sounding angry. You are doing what you accuse Sherry of doing.
Posted by your own administrator.....YOUR OWN ADMINISTRATOR!
Our own administrator. Who spends an enormous amount of time and effort helping ferrents and their ferrets. Who gives back in a positive fashion. Who has had her heart broken time and again and still come here to teach, Mentor, help, and support. Who does not flame or accuse. Who does give and give and give. Ask yourself if you can say that. I know that even at my age, I will never reach or help one tenth of those who Sherry has touched.
So you can get as many people to gang up as you like (though some of them disagreed with your approach towards care BTW and PMd me thanking me for fighting the good fight), FB or anywhere else, that doesn't change the science. Science says one thing, and one thing only. The only cure (for one diagnosis) is surgery.
No one is rallying anyone to gang up on you. You have simply been disrespectful of someone who has earned our respect and I for one, am only asking that you state your case or opinion in a polite and respectful manner.
I won't go on further. As I said, this is a kind and gentle place. Ferrets are our first concern. Making this a safe place to ask questions, learn more and debate issues is important and something I intend to keep that way.
With regards Poncesmom
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 17:47:48 GMT -5
The whole post read as step by step attack maybe you can't see how you came across but the attitude behind all of it read in a shockingly rude manner. Not acceptable etiquette,try to be respectful and keep conversations friendly.
What sherry is saying is true. In the UK adrenal surgery isn't done, it's seen as cruel and excessive in nearly all cases. Okay we do not get adrenal in animals as young as you guys do.. but adrenal surgery, is growingly no longer seen as an ideal option by many people.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 17:51:44 GMT -5
The vet I originally took Ace to told me she felt all of aces symptoms were not adrenal, she believed it was just a neglect case. Shes a happy go lucky ferret, loves everyone (despite what she's been through ). The vet ruled her hair loss out as urine burn but I wanted a second opinion because I honestly didn't like the vet. I felt like she wouldn't answer my questions and wanted to push me out the door as fast as possible. I also heard negative reviews about the vet and the way they treated exotic clients. Anyway... next week ace goes in to a vet I feel comfortable with. The staff is friendly and knowledgeable. I've only had her for about 3/4 weeks but her hair is growing back with proper diet and care. She looks so funny in this regrowth stage! I'll keep everyone posted on how little Acers does and what course of action we take. I like what I've read about the DES implant. Am I correct that the DES implant is also used as a kind of preventive for Adrenal? It's very smart to trust your instincts. If you feel like a second opinion is necessary, I would go for it. I would also like to apologize for some of your thread going south. This is not a normal way for the forum to interact and you should not have to worry about that, while worrying about little Ace. I will get some ferrents who have dealt with Adrenal to help answer your DES implant question.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 18:08:27 GMT -5
- Excessive use of caps
- Red font
- Passive aggressive comments (which do not contribute to the message of your post)
- Direct insults of intelligence/experience
Perhaps I could be projecting one or two of those as I read, but all of them together? That's you, not me.
Got it, use blue and all lowercase next time. What about punctuation...is that out too? No passive agressive comments exist. All statements and opinions are direct, maybe that is where you are confused. Imparatives...please show. An assumption of missing knowledge is not an insult when such proof is provided by the statement being objectified. This is fact. You can not use Cryo for a impeeding VCL tumor. The is a knowledge gap here.
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