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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 18:12:11 GMT -5
The whole post read as step by step attack maybe you can't see how you came across but the attitude behind all of it read in a shockingly rude manner. Not acceptable etiquette,try to be respectful and keep conversations friendly. What sherry is saying is true. In the UK adrenal surgery isn't done, it's seen as cruel and excessive in nearly all cases. Okay we do not get adrenal in animals as young as you guys do.. but adrenal surgery, is growingly no longer seen as an ideal option by many people. Attack, yes I was. Thank you for noticing. Please read the entire thread...I have not once discussed Adreanal surgery in the UK. And anything Sherry posted about surgery choices are that, choices. I posting nothing that is not provable fact, unless it was phrased in the form of an opinion. Maybe if Adrenal was no longer ideal as you suggest, the AMERICAN FERRET ASSICIATION would change the information that the Administrator posted from their website.
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Post by Samantha :) on Aug 29, 2015 18:13:08 GMT -5
Ace has so much going on right now that surgery isn't really an option. She needs to get caught up nutritionally, she has a few deficiencies and is anemic. I'm definitely not in a hurry to have her go under and get opened up. The DES implant just seems like the best choice. I've heard such good things about the implant that I feel like it's worth a try.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 18:16:13 GMT -5
I have posted to the admin board and someone should be on to help you.
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Post by bitbyter on Aug 29, 2015 18:16:20 GMT -5
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Post by Samantha :) on Aug 29, 2015 18:19:32 GMT -5
Surgery may have worked for some, implants worked for others. It's a case by case basis. I've had Ace a very short time and don't know her history, but I love her so much already and this is a stressful decision but I think trying the implant is a good start.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 18:21:05 GMT -5
They capture our hearts so quickly. Ace is lucky to have you.
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Post by Heather on Aug 29, 2015 18:22:54 GMT -5
The DES would be my choice, especially for an at risk ferret. I use the 4.7mg and I use it every 6 months. I don't wait for break through symptoms. I also use melatonin but that's up to you. I just find it helps with hair growth and controls the itchies. For me to get an order in usually takes about 2 weeks ciao
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 18:32:32 GMT -5
Certainly. First of all, I hope you understand that this forum exists because of Sherry. We have the utmost respect for her and all of us will always stand beside her and defend her. Sherry has earned our respect, devotion and admiration. If you know Sherry, you know that she always means well and has a kind and loving heart. BASED ON THIS COMMENT I ASSUME YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF A VENA CAVA LIGATION (AND TO DEGREE TUMOR GROWTH IN GENERAL), AND ITS' NECESSITY: IT IS THE ONLY OPTION IN CERTAIN CASES AND CRYO WILL DO NOTHING...also your vet isn't special b/c of this...most vets out west use cryo and have been for years as my 1st had adrenal his removed with cryo in 2000...so not a big deal
Simply put, Caps are yelling at someone. (I can assume what I want...it's called an opion (which we are here to share) and drawing conclusions, you did it above so I am not allowed...doesn't seem fair does it?)
Of course you can have an opinion. We just want it to be polite and stated in a mature fashion. (actually the concurrent conditions that befall an animal with a growing tumor requires much additional care- this was also discussed in Shoemakers research)..and is also more likely to be determined based on the cost of your vets procedures b/c all vets have different cost system...2 des implants = 1 surgery for my vet...what about yours? And given how many (so if more than one person disagrees with you you are automatically wrong?)
What about yours?? so, if more than one person disagrees with you, you are automatically wrong. I can guarantee that there are ways to ask this without sounding angry. You are doing what you accuse Sherry of doing. Posted by your own administrator.....YOUR OWN ADMINISTRATOR!Our own administrator. Who spends an enormous amount of time and effort helping ferrents and their ferrets. Who gives back in a positive fashion. Who has had her heart broken time and again and still come here to teach, Mentor, help, and support. Who does not flame or accuse. Who does give and give and give. Ask yourself if you can say that. I know that even at my age, I will never reach or help one tenth of those who Sherry has touched. So you can get as many people to gang up as you like (though some of them disagreed with your approach towards care BTW and PMd me thanking me for fighting the good fight), FB or anywhere else, that doesn't change the science. Science says one thing, and one thing only. The only cure (for one diagnosis) is surgery.
No one is rallying anyone to gang up on you. You have simply been disrespectful of someone who has earned our respect and I for one, am only asking that you state your case or opinion in a polite and respectful manner. I won't go on further. As I said, this is a kind and gentle place. Ferrets are our first concern. Making this a safe place to ask questions, learn more and debate issues is important and something I intend to keep that way. With regards Poncesmom I am not debating the body of work done to create this exchange. That goes without saying. But I will correct anyone who states factually incorrect information, because that's what your mission should be, get as much correct and relevent info in the hands of those who need it. My opinion was stated in the most mature of fashion, suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. My second post was a reply, not my opinion. If you think it too direct, great I'll think on that. Still, even direct it was mature. It's not personal, it's factual and I corrected the inaccuracies. It's not a game, it's about whats provable, and what you believe. I didn't correct what she believed unless she stated it as fact, in fact asked that she do exactly that...state what she's been told, what shes read and what she believes....not to interchange the three. Caps lock to me is outlining, not yelling. Yelling is something that can only be done in person, so this is projection. Maybe I will use bold instead next time, but will that be seen and taken the same? I think the information should be read as it is...no projection as one can't possibly know what the writer implies, where I am from, what language is my first and how I communicate...period. As far as not ganging up, that is not only what's happening right now in this thread, but also what the tag fest on the FB page was all about. It's not the first time. And, I did get much support from a few who were not only critical of the information provided in the previous discussion, the manner in which it was provided, but the way they approached the information I provided as well. I don't care who whom is on this forum, if you tell me what to do then turn and do the opposite I will call you out, plain and simple. Don't be a hypocrite. I can draw conclusions based on what's in front of me, just like anyone else. That is only fair. This whole thing would have been avoided had...I not been attacked. You have a messaging system, no need to bring everything to the front like this and congest the thread...Sherry or anyone else could send a simple message, but instead chose to attack my position which is detrimental to progress. Sherry is a great person I am certain of this. This is not in dispute. But we are all human and prone to mistakes. So maybe, thinking about the process in which others reply to the OP, when someone says here's my opinion (unpopular as it may be), trying to pile on and discredit is not the most productive way. As a whole I get what you are suggesting, point taken. But just because you see something being delivered as one way, doesn't make it so. It takes personal interpretation which involves your personal feeling about the matter, I have no personal feeling and the emotional range of a teaspoon, so this is not emotional for me, it is literal, inthe most extreme of measurements. So I will work to push down negative interpretation, so long as others work to read the words for words, nothing more.
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Post by Celene on Aug 29, 2015 18:33:02 GMT -5
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Post by katt on Aug 29, 2015 18:35:03 GMT -5
Sorry, but I have to point out some inaccuracies here. Getting a tumor in one gland and then in the other is NOT at all unrelated. There is an underlying process that is causing the tumors, and that process affects BOTH glands. Lack of gonadal feedback through the HAPG-Axis causes the adrenal glands to receive continuous stimulatory signals from the pituitary gland.
Normally, the hypothalamus sends signals to the pituitary gland, which then in turn sends signals to the adrenal glands and gonads (testicles and ovaries) to produce hormones. Adrenal glands produce sex hormones, but in much smaller quantities than the gonads. NORMALLY, the gonads produce hormones - let's use Testosterone from the testicles. The testicles produce testosterone, which then travels through the blood stream and has many different effects in the body. One of these effects is to send a negative feedback signal - when the testosterone in the blood is high enough it tells the hypothalamic-pituitary system "STOP - we have enough tetosterone," so it stops signaling the testicles. When testosterone is low, the hypothalamus senses this, and turns the signals back on. So, when you remove the gonads, the testicles, there is now SIGNIFICANTLY less testosterone being made. This low Testosterone is sensed by the hypothalamus which goes "OMG we need more testosterone in here guys!" The hypothalamus then signals the pituitary, which send a big "MAKE HORMONES" signal to the testicles AND adrenal glands. However, we have no gonads....so the "ON" signal remains on and in full force, and yet the body STILL remains low in testosterone, so that signal gets ramped up even more. The poor adrenal gland is being bombarded with a massive "make hormones" signal and trying madly to compensate.
When ANY organ is forced to be overactive like this, it will undergo hyperplasia and/or hypertrophy - which means that it increases the number and size of cells. More cells mean it can make more hormone to keep up with the increased workload being demanding of it. In time, the cells begin to multiply more than needed and with the abnormal growth and signals, they become PRE-cancerous. There's more cells, and often those cells are each producing More hormone than a normal cell. Carcinoma In-Situ is a tumor or cancer, that is NOT yet malignant - but that has the capacity to become malignant. At this point we now see TUMORS in the glands, that are producing abnormal amounts of hormones that lead to the symptoms of adrenal disease. These tumors are NOT malignant at first. Given enough time under continued stress of "ON" signals from the pituitary though, and continued abnormal cell growth, the tumors can become malignant and invade other tissues. A tumor is NOT malignant UNTIL it invades other tissues - that is the medical definition of a malignant cancer. (Invasion of blood vessels = malignancy).
NOW, going back to your statements...BOTH of the adrenal glands are under the same stress from the increased "ON" signals. This means that typically BOTH glands will undergo the aforementioned process of abnormal cell growth and abnormal hormone production. The process occurs at different rates in different cells, so tumors might become apparent in one gland sooner than the other in the same way that tumors might show up in different spots on one gland at different times. Removing ONE gland does not at all stop the stressful "ON" signals that the second gland is still receiving AND to top if off, when you remove that gland you also remove the hormones it made...which means less negative feedback...which means MORE stress on the remaining gland. The single remaining adrenal gland now has to compensate for the missing gonads AND the missing adrenal gland... At this point, it is really only a matter of time until disease starts to appear in the remaining gland. Removing ONE gland may remove the tumor in THAT gland, but it will by no means produce a cure of the underlying problem.
Removing BOTH glands is a big mistake though. The adrenal glands are super important and produce vital hormones that our bodies need to function. With decreased adrenal signals, you develop Addison's Disease. With NO adrenal function at all, you develop Nelson's Disease as the Pituitary becomes the main player receiving increased "ON" signals. Removing both glands is just trading one disease for another much more complicated and dangerous disease.
The Adrenal Disease Symptoms that we see in ferrets are caused by the hormones, not the "cancer." ["Tumors can grow through viens, into other glands and effect their output and eventually rupture (see below). If they are cancerous as well, they spread through the various systems in the body (metastasize)" <---- By definition a tumor is cancerous, or malignant if it grows into the vein. When Invasion and Mets happen, you are now dealing with more than just a diseased gland, you are dealing with outright cancer,which is really a very different issue.] So..what can we do about this? Well the ROOT of the problem remember, is that there is nothing telling the Hypothalamus and Pituitary to stop sending ON signals to the gonads and adrenal glands. This is where Lupron and Des come in. These do not get rid of the abnormal cells in the glands, but they DO treat the underlying issue. Lupron and Des are both hormones that work to turn down the Pituitary's signals. (The way they do this is complex, so I will not go into detail but long story short they make the pit insensitive to the ON signals from the hypothalamus). When we turn down this "ON" signal from the pituitary, we remove the constant over-stimulation on the adrenal glands - they are no longer constantly being bombareded with "MAKE HORMONE" signals. If the glands were not yet *too* diseased, this removal of over-stimulation can actually allow the adrenal glands to return to a more normal activity level and any tumors present may actually shrink or even disappear. And indeed there have been many reports of adrenal gland shrinkage on the Des implant. (Why Des works so much better than Lupron we don't really know, bc they are almost identical hormones - it is likely the constant hormone release of the implant that makes the difference). Now obviously, not all of the diseased glands and tumors will shrink - typically by the time the ferret is showing symptoms the gland is too diseased. The abnormal cells remain and if they contain the right (or rather, wrong) genetic mutations from their aberrant growth, then they will tend to continue to grow abnormally. However, without the constant "ON"signal from the pituitary, the growth will slow VERY significantly, AND the hormone over-production will slow if not stop, causing symptoms to improve and disease progression to slow.
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Post by Samantha :) on Aug 29, 2015 18:45:13 GMT -5
Thank you hurricanekatt! I learned a lot just now. I can't wait for Ace to see the vet next week and we get this ball rollin'!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 18:48:31 GMT -5
katt doesn't just play doctor on the HFF, she really is one.
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Post by katt on Aug 29, 2015 19:00:37 GMT -5
katt doesn't just play doctor on the HFF, she really is one. Well almost lol If readers want credentials I have a B.S. in Biology and I'm a 3rd year medical student. I've completely finished the book-work end of things and am now in my clinical years. In other words, I have a lot of training in physiology and disease. But not quite a doc yet - 2 more years, THEN I can finally add the MD to my name! (dance)
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Post by bitbyter on Aug 29, 2015 20:15:51 GMT -5
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Post by Sherry on Aug 29, 2015 20:45:15 GMT -5
Given that this issue was also argued ad nauseum on facebook, and since evidently that was useless exercise in trying to explain it, this thread is now locked. I am sorry you have been subjected to this Samantha, please join us here. We normally aren't argumentative except when ONE person insists all their info is right and everyone else in a variety of countries who also deals with very experienced vets must be wrong. That problem is now solved.
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