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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 11:39:46 GMT -5
I have 2 ferrets that have been on rad cat for 4 months and have been unsuccessful with switching to full raw. The rad cat does have some chunks that they will chew through but when the smallest and I mean smallest sliver is introduced they refused the whole plate of food, when I blend some other protein and mix it the whole plate is refused. Scruffing and stuffing does not work. I have one guy with IBD. I was told by my vet not to scruff one of my guys for 2 weeks because he has ulcers in his mouth from stress that we are treating with meds. We are currently on rad cat because we were being mentored by Erinn Whitmore who has just disappeared and her website is down. I had a mentor on here a while back but do not have the time in my schedule to get on here daily unless needed and the chicken recipe was such a harsh change that my one guy got blood tinged stool. Any help greatly appreciated. I have been trying to switch to full raw since the wysong formula change.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 13:48:09 GMT -5
Welcome back. I remember hearing about Riley and Bubba. I went back thru to see how old Riley and Bubba are. Ferrets imprint on their food sometime before they turn one. Did you have a previous switching thread with @muchasbellas? One of my Mentees Mandi recently met Erinn Whitmore (Mustelamania, right?). She is working at a health food store, but I don't know about her mentoring business. I'm not a fan of scruffing and stuffing. What I would do is to blend the rad cat up into a soup. Add some warm water. Then sit on the floor with them and dab some on their lips. They have to lick it off. Then offer a spoon to them. Gently pick one up and put him on your lap, let him lick it off the spoon. Once he's doing that, then lower the spoon to the plate and let him eat off the spoon on the plate. Then once he's doing that, you can remove the spoon. And try again with the next one. Sit there with them. Success is all about patience, persistence and coaxing. It's not that they are being difficult, they simply don't recognize any new food as food. After you have been feeding this 'soup', slowly increase the thickness and add some small pieces to it. The idea is to work them out up in size until Riley and Bubba are use to the feeling and texture of larger pieces and there is less soup and more meat. Ideally, a ferret needs a minimum of three proteins. Once you are successful with their eating the rad cat, I would buy two other flavors. Different animals have different nutrients and you want a full range of nutrients. Also, you want to keep an eye on their teeth. Unlike a natural diet, they will need some help keeping their teeth clean. Otherwise they will develop plaque and gingivitis. That can lead to a host of problems including heart disease. So, for their sake and to avoid dental bills, a once a week cleaning would be a good idea. You can take some gauze, mix some oil and dried eggshells and wipe that over their teeth. Or you can buy a pet toothpaste and brush. Avoid any pet toothpastes with sweeteners. I believe the oxy fresh pet gel is considered a very good quality paste. It's nice to have you back and don't hesitate to ask any questions.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 14:26:13 GMT -5
They are eating rad cat morning and night but 90% of the time I am spoon feeding them. They will readily spoon feed the three rad cat flavors but will hardly accept it on their own....they just wont eat.
Yes Bella was my mentor.....I work 12.5 hours three days a week and have a 40 minute commute both ways so when I get home from a 14 hour day I would rather play with my babies then sit at the computer and state everything about the day.......so I thought maybe just asking questions rather then the mentoring program may be a better fit.
I hired Erinn the first week in November and have had maybe 10 correspondents with her in the last 6 months, but her last email on March 6th basically stated she is moving and started a new job and basically just didn't have time. So here I am spoon feeding my babies rad cat since January because they are refusing kibble now, wont readily eat the raw chunks and are refusing slivers or any advance I take in the transition.
The vet said they just may never take to raw. I just had a $400 vet bill for teeth cleaning because of gingivitis and plaque and use oxy jel for them once a week. They are taking carafate because of ulcers and blood tinged stool.
I was complaining on AFA and Celene said to give HFF one more try without the actual mentor....so here I am. I want the best for them but have stressed them since October 2014 and I don't know that they want raw or will ever take it. This is my last ditch effort. The vet said rad cat has too much eggs and not enough calcium/phosphorus and taurine so I will try and transition them off to a home grind/soup again. I will use the soup recipe with bone meal though.How much bone meal do I use in the mix? They love the salmon oil.....how much is too much to use a week in the soup?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 12:47:58 GMT -5
You want to use 1/2 tsp of bone meal powder per 8 ounces of meat. Bone meal powder is not really intended for long term use.
Salmon oil (any oils) should be limited to 1/2 tsp every 3 days, per ferret.
Some ferrets are more picky than others. Sherry had one that took almost a year.
It takes patience, persistence and coaxing.
With the spoon, let them eat off of it for the first few bites. Then lower the spoon to the plate and let them eat off the spoon on the plate for the next few bites. Then leave the spoon sitting there and sit with them. Hopefully, they will get the idea.
Have you considered making your own grinds using a food processor. You would follow the Frankenprey plan and yo would want to clean their teeth, since they are not getting whole bones to keep them clean.
We've had quite a few ferrents successfully switch their ferrets on an unofficial switching thread.
Keep posting and all the Mentors should pop in and offer advice.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 20:10:26 GMT -5
I just thought I would try bone meal because when I tried the soup before they wouldn't eat it with the egg powder in the mix. What would you consider long term??I am in the process of getting a meat grinder for home grinds.I know grinds are not ideal because of the teeth cleaning but this would be the next best option with teeth cleaning included.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 10:02:14 GMT -5
Hi and welcome back! I have not read your other thread(s) so I can only go off of here.
Poncesmom gave you some great advice so far! I know switching is hard (I have 5 ferrets) and when you throw a full time job and long commute (I work 5 days a week and have an hour and half round trip commute each day-blah!) but hang in there! You can do it and Bubba & Riley will get there...it just takes time.
If you have a blender or food processor, you can make the frankenprey soupie.
8oz chicken thigh
1oz chicken liver
1oz chicken heart
1/2 - 3/4 tsp egg shell (or bone meal) powder
You can make a couple batches of the soup and freeze it either in tupperware containers or ice cube trays. That way, you can pull (from the freezer) what you need and you don't have to make it everyday. (The soupie can stay out for 6-8 hours and in the fridge about 2-3 days.)
My Zoey, prior to the switch would not eat anything but kibble. When I started the raw soupie, she was convinced I was poisoning her and I felt hopeless. I thought for sure, she would not be able to switch. She was my toughest and took the longest in the beginning, but she's now crunching bones like everyone else! It took about 6 weeks of me finger feeding and spoon feeding her soup-every single day! It's time consuming but it does create this beautiful bond between you and your babies! I don't know how to explain it, but it's incredible! :hug:
For the egg shell powder, I got a mortor and pestle. I tried blending the egg shells in my magic bullet blender, but it did not get it fine enough (and the babies would not eat the soup with it in there). Once I got the egg shells into a fine powder, they ate the soup no problem and then had better poops. For bone meal, that's a fine substitute for egg shell powder, but make sure you get human grade bone meal.
As for the "long term use"-bone meal cannot compare to the nutrients found in bones themselves. Dental health wise, as well, cannot compare to the real thing.
Hang in there and ask away! There are incredible mentors and raw feeding ferrents here that can help you out! :thumbsup:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 23:00:43 GMT -5
Ah yes I read your post on the AFA page. Best of luck to you in your switch.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 20:46:18 GMT -5
Could somebody please post the link to the menu guidelines I can't seem to find them? I bought a grinder and will go from Rad cat to ground without bone then slowly transition to bone in then hopefully whole bones...... but I want to get my percentages right while they are on full grinds. Thank you.
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Post by FireAngel on May 2, 2015 21:49:38 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 18:15:20 GMT -5
Would anybody be able to post a sample of their weekly meal plan that they have been successful with for their IBD baby??? Thank you. Mine are eating chunks and Riley is tolerating everything but my IBD kid is only able to tolerate turkey even with very very slow transitions to other proteins.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 19:16:36 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 19:18:58 GMT -5
Also under the Health and Medical page on the Home Page, you can look at IBD and all the threads that fall under it, until someone posts a menu for you.
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Post by Celene on Jul 23, 2015 20:25:52 GMT -5
What symptoms is your IBD baby showing?
My Nova hasn't being diagnosed with IBD, although she does seem to have a sensitive tummy and get diarrhea easily. I find it helps a lot if within a week I group my proteins together. For example, if I was feeding a protein (say, rabbit) three times a week, instead of doing rabbit Monday, Wednesday and Friday mornings (alternating with other proteins), I would do rabbit Monday morning, Monday evening and Tuesday morning... Then my next protein (say quail) for the next meals. I still spread out my organ meals evenly though, and always sandwich them between two bone-in meals. I like to feed my organs in a ground soup so that I can mix in probiotics, digestive enzymes, and sometimes slippery elm depending on her tummy.
Nova can't tolerate turkey either. I believe lamb is *generally* the most well-tolerated and least allergenic protein (although there are some ferrets who can't eat anything with hoofs) and chicken and beef are the most common sensitivities.
For ferrets with severe IBD I would recommend checking with your vet, and perhaps starting on a low dose of pred or other medication.
@poncesmom already tagged her, but Katt's little boy has very severe IBD so she is probably a better resource on the topic than I.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 22:11:55 GMT -5
Symptoms......He has watery stools that are blood tinged with any small changes in diet or any variation. He has done the 6 weeks of amox/flagyl, carafate, pred and pepcid, wholistic probiotics, digestive enzymes with relief. He has had x rays that showed gi inflammation and blood tests that showed only mildly elevated liver enzymes. The vet even went a step further and had labs sent out for protein analysis that were normal. The vet is requesting I put him back on Marshals kibble because that is what he ate for 7 months before I brought him home and he had normal poops.....she thinks he has IBD (only thing left to do is a biopsy to diagnose) and says he may not tolerate raw and that if we don't get this under control he may end up with lymphoma because of the prolonged GI inflammation. So this is my last effort to try and get his gut stabilized with raw. Both my kids hate lamb.I've never tried beef because I know red meat is even hard for humans to digest so I'm thinking it wont help my IBD kid.Any help with meal planning to sooth upset tummies much appreciated.
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Post by katt on Jul 23, 2015 23:49:19 GMT -5
Symptoms......He has watery stools that are blood tinged with any small changes in diet or any variation. He has done the 6 weeks of amox/flagyl, carafate, pred and pepcid, wholistic probiotics, digestive enzymes with relief. He has had x rays that showed gi inflammation and blood tests that showed only mildly elevated liver enzymes. The vet even went a step further and had labs sent out for protein analysis that were normal. The vet is requesting I put him back on Marshals kibble because that is what he ate for 7 months before I brought him home and he had normal poops.....she thinks he has IBD (only thing left to do is a biopsy to diagnose) and says he may not tolerate raw and that if we don't get this under control he may end up with lymphoma because of the prolonged GI inflammation. So this is my last effort to try and get his gut stabilized with raw. Both my kids hate lamb.I've never tried beef because I know red meat is even hard for humans to digest so I'm thinking it wont help my IBD kid.Any help with meal planning to sooth upset tummies much appreciated. Of course they had "normal" poops on Marshalls kibble. The stuff is so full of fillers that don't get digested that it passes right through and comes out the other end looking the same as it did going in. Kibble is NOT good for IBD ferrets and Marshall's kibble is the very last thing I would want any IBD fuzz on. Putting an IBD ferret on kibble to normalize their poops is like covering up a gunshot wound with a bandaid - you might not be able to SEE the problem anymore, but it is still there. holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/79/scat-dissectionAll of the extra ingredients, fillers, and additives in kibble just means more things your ferret's body has to work against. The fillers will firm up the poops sure, but the grains, other carbs, and additives can continue to add strain to an already diseased/delicate system (and let's not ignore the serious strain on the pancreas). Even with a high quality kibble, you completely lose control of what goes in. If there is a reaction or a flare-up there is NO way to know which ingredient in the kibble is causing the problem, and even less ability to be able to remove the offending agent. Raw diet on the other hand offers complete control - if there is a specific protein they react to, you know exactly which one it is and it is easy to remove it. You are in complete control of what goes in. Additionally, a huge risk of any illness in ferrets but particularly of illnesses affecting the GI tract, is dehydration. The constant indigestion, soft stools, and inflammation can all contribute to water loss in an animal that is already prone to living in a state of borderline dehydration. Hydration is absolutely CRUCIAL for gut function. Raw hydrates, kibble dehydrates... For diagnosing the IBD, I would not bother with a biopsy. That is really invasive and comes with a whole pile of its own risks (risk of anesthesia, bleeding, infection, etc) and won't alter the treatment course. If you can't get the inflammation under control through diet (again firming up the poops with filler-kibble doesn't get rid of the inflammation it just hides it), then you will need to put him on pred. Often you can even do a short course of pred to calm things down and get his system under control, and then wean back off of it. Or he may need to be on pred for life. I would really recommend doing a protein trial to determine what your boy is sensitive to. Something to consider is RadCat has added ingredients - FAR less than kibble but it is still a possibility that one of those ingredients could be a trigger as well. Are you able to order from HareToday instead? They sell grinds, but they don't have the added ingredients. They also have whole-animal grinds - whole prey is the #1 best thing you could give an IBD ferret. For proteins, Beef is actually one of the most common triggers for ferrets with allergies or IBD. Lamb and goat are great - goat tends to be more accepted than lamb. Rabbit is awesome, but very lean and low in taurine, duck is usually a very safe meat. I would really recommend reading this thread: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/17731/protein-trial-elimination-diet-ferretsI also discuss other supplements in that thread. Pancreatin and Slippery Elm are particularly helpful. |
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