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Post by Heather on Mar 30, 2015 23:09:04 GMT -5
Name: Kim Cierpik-Gold HF Forum Username: Alvinsmom Please confirm that you are 18 years of age or older: Yes
1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? I've heard about natural diets in the past but I found your forum recently while searching for enrichment activities for Alvin. I read about the natural diets, saw the pictures that showed very healthy-looking ferrets and was intrigued. I have had many ferrets with adrenal, insulinoma (or both) and I looked at the ingredients listed in my guy's food and treats. I didn't really like what I saw so I came back to this forum and did some more research.
2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret. I would most likely do the frozen-thawed. It is what is more readily available here but I also want to do as much organic meats as well. I would love to be able to get Alvin on a full meat diet and get him off of his high-sugar treats and grains. He is about 6 years old and I have exchanged conversations with members here that they have been able to convert their older ferrets with some patience. He is borderline insulinomic so I'm not sure about how to deal with mid-day feedings if he is not free-fed. I can come home during lunch time but I don't have a long break considering drive times. This is something I would like to discuss with a mentor as well. His last BG was 84 and that was taken a month ago. His previous BG at his last annual was within the "normal" levels.
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? His health and well-being, and also as a chance for he and I to spend more quality time together.
4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment? I am ready now but we are hoping to have a baby. I would love to at the very least get Alvin on a better set of treats, oils (something that could still take a long time but maybe a little more easy to transition). Right now Alvin and the cat are my babies and I'm willing to put in the time - Alvin is certainly worth it! I want him to be a healthy and happy little guy and if I can help put off sugar issues I am happy to do what is needed. My husband is also willing to help (he already talked with our local natural foods store about organ availability and he did so very willingly).
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for? Alvin is my only ferret now. I've had ferrets since 1997 and all had cancer of some sort in the end. I lost my little girl earlier this summer and since then Alvin has been doing pretty well as a single ferret. He is about 6 years old (rescue that I adopted December 2010 at about a year old). He just had his annual check up in December and he is healthy, about 2 pounds and other than the BG of 84 he is healthy. He seems to be a good weight for his size. He has a good appetite and loves his food and especially his treats.
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup? He eats Totally Ferret active (free fed), Bandits raisin or peanut butter treats, ferretone and Nbones chicken sticks (half-stick at a time, try for not more than once a day). I have the recipe for the soupie. I am going on work travel later this week and will try to start him on that once I return.
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? No
8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? Alvin is a goofy boy. He is just getting to meet his new kitten brother (Colby is 7 months old). Alvin used to try to drag his sister, Fretka, around by the scruff so after we lost her this past June we decided it would not be a good idea to bring another ferret into the house. We don't think Alvin was being aggressive, I think he wanted to protect her as his "baby." I enjoy making toys for him so I am also always looking for homemade toy ideas.
9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? Daily. If not on a computer I have my smartphone.
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible). I need to get a better shot of him showing his tummy and back, but here is a picture that shows some of him from above.
Hi and welcome to the mentoring program :wave3: . In a little while your mentor (Jocie529) will introduce themself and you can get started on a new Adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentors can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentors and most of all relax and have fun :heehee: . Your mentors are here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 14:36:38 GMT -5
Location: Miami, FL
About Me: I’m a 26 yr old Chemist. For the past 4 years, I’ve been working as a lab technician at my previous alma mater. Currently, I’m waiting to hear whether I am accepted into the Ph.D. in Chemistry program—I reallllly hope I get in. I decided not to go into grad school right after I graduated so that I could devote all my time towards making Pinky feel comfortable during his last months with us. Once I’m in grad school, I endeavor to study forensic chemistry (Drug analysis/detection) so that I may work at the DEA one day. Since the passing of my two boys, I’ve been trying to become more financially stable before I bring in another little guy into our world, because vet bills aren’t free and I don’t like asking for help.
My favorite color is: I have 2: Purple and Lime Green My favorite food is: Thai Food (Yellow curry chicken w/ brown rice –drools-) My favorite holiday is: Halloween! (Favorite Season: Autumn <3) My favorite hobby is: Reading, organizing, and listening to music.
I like to listen to: Almost everything but, country.
I collect: Office supplies, I have a problem >.>
Something about me you might be surprised to know: My guilty pleasure is hip hop. The beat is catchy.
I became a mentor because: I want to help spread the word that there is a healthier diet alternative other than kibble. As a ferrent who fed both kibble and raw meals, I can tell you the difference it will make in your ferret’s life. Moreover, if they have a health issue, a species appropriate diet will help them. I found myself in a hole when Tiny decided not to eat his kibble anymore. After searching for alternatives, I found HFF and even though my little guys experienced commercial raw for a short period of time, they’re lives were greatly impacted.
About My Ferrets: Tiny (2/12/2006-4/12/2013-Sable) Tiny was a first ferret <3 He was born on February 12, 2006. The sweetest and most docile little fert you’d ever meet. My first encounter to him was back when I turned 18 and wanted someone to love. Some called it impulsive; I called it love at first sight. Tiny was kibble fed until he was 7 yrs old. Sadly, it took him taking a turn for the worse to go online and search for an alternative diet—which is when I found HFF. Mister Tiny was a very easy transition to commercial raw, unlike his brother . Tiny suffered from both insulinoma and adrenal disease. He took prednisolone (and diazoxide later on) and had Deslorein implants every 6 months. Like any fert that has A/D: his prostate enlarged and it lead to a rigorous emergency surgery. Apparently the surgery was so complex that it involved microsurgery and the vet didn’t think he’d pull through. He did though and was titled the miracle ferret. =) Tiny was my heart ferret. He knew when I needed some love or when I was worried. He’d climb up onto the bed and sleep with me. After My surgery, he just laid down next to me. It’s like he knew. What took my heart fert away was lymphoma. His passing was too hard to handle but, I know he’s in a better place now.
Pinky (11/12/2006-9/29/2013)- Das Pink, Pinkysaurus, or Pinkehhhh. The Pinkster was born on November 12, 2006… I think. When I rescued Sir Pinks from Petco, the workers there were messing with him and kept saying how no one will buy him. After I bought him I got this Marshalls pamphlet but was told the date of birth was wrong (it said January 7, 2007 ) but I was told he was 4 months old and I just counted back and voila... a birthday. Pinky was Mr. Big personality in the house. Since Pinky was deaf, he hissed at everyone or everything at first. Of course, we didn’t know he was deaf for quite some time but it’s okay, we still loved him. Pinky was also kibble fed until he was 6 yrs old though. He was a tough transition since he was just diagnosed with insulinoma (He was on Pred and Diazoxide). With some guidance, he finally gave in and his health improved a lot with the switch. Pinky had the nose of a dog! He would be sleeping and I would peel open a banana and seconds later it’d see him tippy toeing with his nose in the air. Sadly, Pink had adrenal disease as well but not as intense as Tiny’s. He was on Des and Flutamide to decrease the size of his prostate. It wasn’t until Tiny passed that we learned about Pinky’s cardiomyopathy. We went to a cardiologist to get him on a medicine regimen (Pimobendan, Enalapril, and Lasix). Even though it helped, the Lasix and the pred/diazoxide were causing stress in his kidneys. I tried everything in my power to help pinky feel comfortable with us but, I knew when it was time. His heart became weak and it was time for him to be reunited with Tiny.
About My Natural Feeding Experience: I started feeding commercial raw early on in 2013. Due to my limited time schedule, I only know commercial raw at the moment. I have experience with both easy and difficult transitions on commercial raw with insulinomic ferrets.
Type of Mentor: Mentor-In-Training
My Specialty: Ferrets with insulinoma, adrenal disease, cardiomyopathy, helicobacter pylori, and some IBD and finally, both easy and difficult transitions to commercial raw.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 14:38:40 GMT -5
Now that you know me a little bit, let's get started! What are you currently feeding Alvin? How many times? Treats? Let me know everything, the more details the better!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 22:22:24 GMT -5
Hi Jocie! Thanks for taking us! Alvin is eating primarily Stella and Chewy'S turkey or chicken meals with a touch of baby food. It has been over a month since he has had kibble (totally ferret) and a few weeks since he ate Bandits treats although his sitter may have given him a few. He will also eat Rad Cat turkey or lamb but he really loves Stellas. He gets a good size serving of sTell as about 2.5 Oz dry mixed with plenty of water twice a day. He eats as much as he wants and there is usually a bit left when he is done. He will eat slivers of chicken thigh, heart and liver but mostly if mixed with Stellas. He is insulin mic and takes .3 ml of pred once a day. After moving to the commercial raw he has had so much energy. He has gained a lot of weight which the vet will check on Friday when he gets his Des implant. He also likes egg and salmon oil.
He absolutely loves his new food. His energy before he got sick in January was okay. About 20 min of play before curling up to sleep. I'm not sure what caused his sickness and we never found a cause. He lost his energy and interest in playing, stopped eating kibble in what seemed overnight and showed signs of stomach aches. I suspected either depression or a bad bag of food. His bordering insulino mic BE levels dropped in a week to 60. That was the beginning of Feb. Now he can play for over an hour and we will see how much weight he has gained by the vet's scale. I estimate a good half pound.
He isn't showing interest in freeze dried snacks yet but I keep trying.
I'm very much looking forwardo to learning more! I'm guessing now I should maintain his food and weight journal. What other things should I track? Do you want pictures weekly? More frequently? I post a lot of fun pics on the facebook site.
I'm hoping to give Alvin a healthy diet lots of fun play and try to give him some variety so boredom and depression doesn't take over again. Thanks so much!
Kim and Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 14:35:46 GMT -5
"...Primarily Stella and Chewy's turkey or chicken meals with a touch of baby food..."
Cool, I'm going to assume that it's the frozen patties and not the Freeze dried raw (FDR)?
It has been over a month since he has had kibble (totally ferret) and a few weeks since he ate Bandits treats although his sitter may have given him a few.
Awesome! Totally ferret isn't the best kibble food brand. I'm not quite sure which one you were feeding but I can tie in why Alvin got insulinoma. This might be long but I'm going to list the ingredients of one of the bags and explain what all the highlighting means:
Ingredients: Chicken by-product meal, rice flour, egg product, chicken fat (stabilized with natural mixed tocopherols), poultry fat (stabilized with natural mixed tocopherols), wheat flour, corn meal, herring meal, beet pulp, chicken liver meal, brewer's yeast, lecithin, fish oil (stabilized with natural mixed tocopherols), salt, vegetable oil, calcium carbonate, l-lysine (essential amino acid), dl-methionine (essential amino acid), potassium chloride, taurine (essential amino acid), zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, Vitamin E supplement, iron sulfate, ascorbic acid (Vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin supplement, thiamine mononitrate (Vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), copper proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (Vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, calcium iodate (source of iodine), manganese oxide, Vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenite, Vitamin D3 supplement, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (source of Vitamin K activity), and folic acid.
Okay, the highlighted portions are the bad things. Carbs, in both humans and ferrets, are usually converted into sugar. Kibble is usually left out constantly so they can eat whenever. What happens is similar to what happens when we eat McDonalds, for instance. McD is full of carbs as well (bread, ketchup, etc.) and after eating this carb load, we feel a little tired afterwards. The carbs spikes out Blood glucose (BG) and then it drops back down. The same thing can be said about kibble. They eat, high BG spikes and they go to bed and the cycle repeats when they get hungry again. So their BG is on this rollercoaster ride and it causes stress on the pancreas which will eventually lead to insulinoma. The same goes for sugary treats. So this is why ferrets usually end up with insulinoma. The kibble food industry is the best out there. Oh! Another thing I highlighted was beet pulp. Ferrets cannot process vegetables like humans can. Kibble industries usually uses veggies to boost up their protein content because ferrets need a high protein diet so why not add a little bit of peas to boost those numbers up? Peas are very bad for ferrets, causes kidney stones. I hope all this made sense, It's a little intro to tie insulinoma and kibble together.
He will also eat Rad Cat turkey or lamb but he really loves Stellas. He gets a good size serving of sTell as about 2.5 Oz dry mixed with plenty of water twice a day. He eats as much as he wants and there is usually a bit left when he is done. He will eat slivers of chicken thigh, heart and liver but mostly if mixed with Stellas.
That's great!!! My guys loved rad cat. So he's eating slivers of chicken thighs, hearts and liver! That's awesomeee, most ferts hate liver. Now we need to introduce other protein sources such as turkey, cornish game hen, rabbit, etc. and other organs such as kidneys, spleen, etc (Here's a list: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/13628/defines-nutritional-organ-meat). I'm not sure if you have butchershops or ethnic stores around your area in order to expand on different organs and different protein sources. Also, we need to work in bones in his diet. I know Radcat has eggshells in their meats but bones are better for them. It helps keep their teeth clean and helps them gain strength in their jaws. Usually when feeding commercial raw, it's often recommended to brush their teeth because plaque starts to build up in the molars.
You said stella and chewy's dry, so it is FDR?
He is insulimic and takes .3 ml of pred once a day. After moving to the commercial raw he has had so much energy. He has gained a lot of weight which the vet will check on Friday when he gets his Des implant. He also likes egg and salmon oil.
So he's on Prednisolone, that's good. I just want to make sure that you're giving him the pred with food, correct? Pred is known to cause ulcers if given on an empty stomach. Pinky got ulcers and one ruptured one night. We almost lost him to blood loss. So just putting that out there if your vet hasn't already said so.
The energy boost is because he's on a high protein diet. The closer they are to their species diet, the better. With a high protein diet (frankenprey, commercial raw, etc) the longer their BG maintains stable instead of spiking and dipping low.
What was his last BG reading, if you remember? Since he has insulinoma, I would recommend buying a glucometer. The thing with insulinoma is that sometimes you may have to increase their feedings to maybe 3 or 4 a day. It depends on how advanced it is but, if you have a glucometer at home and you suspect that he's going to crash (very low - low BG leads to crashes: drooling, pawing at the mouth, seizures, blank stares, etc.) you can take his BG at home and push a high protein meal to increase his BG. It's all about preventing a crash and also knowing that if something goes bad at home at 3am, you can test his BG and you know what to do. I was the kind of ferrent with a plan but always panicked lol.
He isn't showing interest in freeze dried snacks yet but I keep trying.
Pinky was more into FDR than Tiny was. I guess it depends. Pinky's favorite was Nature's Variety Instinct's raw boost minis (http://www.instinctpetfood.com/product/instinct-raw-boost-minis-cats-chicken-225-oz-box). He loved them but again, every ferret is different.
I'm very much looking forwardo to learning more! I'm guessing now I should maintain his food and weight journal. What other things should I track? Do you want pictures weekly? More frequently? I post a lot of fun pics on the facebook site.
Sure! Keep a journal for sure! Keep a record of his weight, BG readings (during vet visits), his vet's (and emergency vet) info, the pharmacy's info, what meds (and concentration) he's on and the amount, any illness or allergies. Anything that you can think of. Here's how I thought of it--if anything were to happen to me, the journal contains everything about my kids so someone could step in and know what's going on. Also, you can always ask for a copy of Alvin's medical records. It helps to have a copy in order of an emergency, the eVet can have a medical history straight from your vet.
Pictures? Sure! I'm living vicariously through everyone else's ferret since I'm still waiting on getting another little one. My 2 left me with a mountain of vet bills and I'm almost back down to owing nothing. Woo, Lol. Pictures do help because if his stools get iffy, pictures are better to decipher than it is to read a description of it. Whatever you want to show me, go for it! lol
I'm hoping to give Alvin a healthy diet lots of fun play and try to give him some variety so boredom and depression doesn't take over again. Thanks so much!
So again, it wasn't a depression he was going through. It was the BG spikes and dips. It happens and do not feel guilty. I fed my guys horrible kibble before coming to this forum. I had this guilt that lingered over me after their passing because I could've prevented their insulinoma but, their last few months with us they feasted like kings.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 14:56:41 GMT -5
I forgot to ask, can you make me a menu of what he's eating. I know you said radcat, stella and chewy's, Chicken thigh, hearts, liver, and chicken baby food but I want a little bit of a Monday AM, Monday PM, Tuesday AM, Tuesday PM, etc. If you can remember what he was fed from Sunday up until today that'd be great or begin writing it down so I have a clear view of what he's eating and when he's eating it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 16:39:14 GMT -5
Hi Jocie, just a very quick update. I'll adress more later. He is eating the FDR if Stella's which I rehydrate. I wasn't aware they made frozen patties! I will have to look for those. I leave the rehydrated Stella's out and alvin doesn't eat it during the daytime. I come home to find his plate has turned icky brown. I will write more tonight! Thanks again and I am very excited to get moving more on Alvin's transition.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 18:44:28 GMT -5
Yeah, they make frozen patties and frozen morsels are they call them. Sadly the cat version doesn't come in patties. You'd want to buy the cat version because it contains taurine. But, I'll wait for the update. Want to get him started on a balanced diet as soon as possible =D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 20:33:54 GMT -5
The menu for the past week has been entirely Stella's Tummy Lickin Turkey cat dinner. I usually make about 0.5 oz dry, mix with enough warm water (not hot) to make a soup-like consistency. I add about 1 to 1 1/2 tsp chicken baby food. He gets a plate (he now refuses anything out of a bowl of any kind, silly boy) at 5:30 am and then he gets the same when I get home sometime between 4:30 and 5:00 pm. I've left out some of his prepared Stella's during the day and it usually just sits there turning an odd color brown. He gets his pred with dinner. I know it can give major upset tummies if taken on an empty stomach.
He doesn't show any signs of his BG drops. I know that does not mean he doesn't have significant fluctuations. It took me a while to figure it out. His BG in mid-Dec was 84 and by Jan 29th it was 78 so he started pred. In a vet check Feb 7th it was 60. Doubled the dose of pred for a few weeks. He has a vet appt this Friday so I'll ask them to check his BG again. I should get a monitor and calibrate it then as well. I'm so nervous about pricking his tail though. Gotta get over that though, be good to my boy.
He will eat small slivers, but if they get too big (not even tip of pinky sized pieces) he will carry it somewhere and drop it. If I chop them up enough he will eat the thigh, heart, liver but prefers it mixed with something as well.
We have Asian markets nearby and I need to check those out. My hubby broke his collar bone a month ago and had surgery to repair it so our very small freezer is full of ice packs, leaving little room for food for us or Alvin. So, the meat I have been buying is going bad before we can use it. I did buy a meat grinder to help me make the pieces small enough to the point Alvin will eat them. I want to try pork this weekend.
Alvin enjoys egg but I've been keeping that limited as it makes his poops very icky. He also likes Salmon oil. How frequently can he get that?
He doesn't seem to have allergies to any of the food I've given him although he does not like the salmon/chicken mix. He regurgitated that right away. The cat won't even eat that mix.
Is there a meal plan that mixes both the commercial FDR or raw plus the meats I can offer him? I like the convenience of the FDR but sometimes it can be hard to find. You mentioned the treats so I'll try those. Is there any other FDR that would be good for us to try? I like to also have the grocery store meats to offer Alvin for times when we run out of Stella's and can't find a replacement right away.
What new meats do you recommend we try first? Should I look for other organs first?
Thanks! I'll have to upload pics soon. By the way, on a personal note good luck with grad school! I work with a lot of chemical engineers (I'm an aero myself) and I let passing the entrance exam or not to be the deciding factor of whether or not to continue past the Master's program. I loved it but it was very hard to manage money and time. I adopted by first ferret Khobi my first year into the Master's program because I really wanted a critter to love and keep company. I did a ton of research before I got her, but that was in 1997 and I've had ferrets ever since. Zoey, Mia, Harry, Sable, Otis, Gabriel and Fretka are the ones I've since lost. Alvin is the last one now. We may get another ferret about Alvin's age if our rescue finds one that gets along with Alvin. Although, we are trying to have a human baby as well so we will have to see what happens. Alvin seems okay as an only fert, but I do understand the need for a companion of your own species. The cat is a fun distraction for Alvin, but it's not quite the same.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 2:54:08 GMT -5
The menu for the past week has been entirely Stella's Tummy Lickin Turkey cat dinner. I usually make about 0.5 oz dry, mix with enough warm water (not hot) to make a soup-like consistency. I add about 1 to 1 1/2 tsp chicken baby food
Is there a meal plan that mixes both the commercial FDR or raw plus the meats I can offer him? I like the convenience of the FDR but sometimes it can be hard to find.
Question! What exactly is the plan. The application says you want to do frozen-thawed and this can be frankenprey, commercial raw, or whole-prey. So you want to do a half commercial raw and half meats? Let me know so I can have a better understanding. I'm asking because we usually treat commercial raw/FDR as a complete balanced meal. Radcat has hearts, livers, eggshells (as bone), and muscles in addition to other ingredients. The same goes for stella and chewy's FDR minus the heart though. They add in taurine supplement. So let me know so I can work on a balance between commercial and meats.
The idea would be for him to get on frankenprey as it has no additional ingredients that commercial raw has such as seaweed, kelp, pumpkin seeds, etc. It's more healthier for them, it has no added veggies or carbs (thinking of the insulinoma) and like I stated earlier, bones and gizzards leads to healthy teeth! The gnawing cleans the molars while commercial grinds and grinds in general begin to build plaque and brushing should be done.
The reason he probably isn't getting used to bigger slivers is because he knows he'll get a soupy FDR/ baby chicken food meal later. Why build jaw muscles when I can be lazy and nom on my soupies. Lol. Ferrets are like toddlers, so a little tough love must be dished out for their own good. If you want him to get to bigger slivers we can try adding them to the soups and slowly removing the soups or making them thicker until it's completely removed. Again, let me know what exactly you want to do so I know what direction to head into as far as meal balancing is. I will teach you how to balance out a week's worth of meals as well as soon as I know what the plan is.
Alvin enjoys egg but I've been keeping that limited as it makes his poops very icky. He also likes Salmon oil. How frequently can he get that?
The rule of thumb is 1 egg per ferret every 3-4 days and 1 teaspoon (tsp) of oil every 3-4 days. You can work out the tsp of oil to a few drops per day. The conversion is 1 tsp = 98 drops (or 14 drops per day), to be specific. The poops are icky because he's chowing down on two slimy substances. Try and not put a lot of oil on the eggs and see if that helps with the poops.
Is there any other FDR that would be good for us to try? What new meats do you recommend we try first? Should I look for other organs first?
Other FDR? Not one that comes to mind. I've used both Stella's and Nature's Variety with success.
New meats could be turkey, cornish game hen, beef, pork (but you're trying that soon!), rabbit (asian market), duck, lamb, venison (bambi, lol), ummm goat? Just some ideas.
Organs: Kidneys, spleen, brain, pancreas (Go here >>>> holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/13628/defines-nutritional-organ-meat)
Nonorgan muscle meats: gizzards!! Awesome for teeth!
My hubby broke his collar bone a month ago and had surgery to repair it so our very small freezer is full of ice packs, leaving little room for food for us or Alvin. So, the meat I have been buying is going bad before we can use it. I did buy a meat grinder to help me make the pieces small enough to the point Alvin will eat them. I want to try pork this weekend.
Ouchh! I can only imagine the pain he must be in. Frozen chicken (whole) is good in the freeze (0 °F or below) for 1 year while chicken pieces is good for 9 months [Source: www.foodsafety.gov/keep/charts/storagetimes.html]. Ideally, meat does not go bad. You can feed him freezer burned meat, they eat it just fine.
About the grinder, I'm not sure. It's a great idea if you're going to stay at grinds. We can use it if that's the plan if not we can use it at the beginning and work out way up to bigger slivers. Again, let me know.
Let me know how pork goes!! What part of the pork are you feeding him? Just curious. Hope it goes well!!
He doesn't show any signs of his BG drops. I know that does not mean he doesn't have significant fluctuations. It took me a while to figure it out. His BG in mid-Dec was 84 and by Jan 29th it was 78 so he started pred. In a vet check Feb 7th it was 60. Doubled the dose of pred for a few weeks. He has a vet appt this Friday so I'll ask them to check his BG again. I should get a monitor and calibrate it then as well. I'm so nervous about pricking his tail though.
Wow, what a drastic drop. You don't have to buzzard his tail, some do some don't. I used to buzzard the side of one of the toe pads with the smallest gauge lancet. You have to practice at it because they clot very fast. I would have my bf scruff them, I'd clean the area, quick buzzard, take the blood, clean the area again and give them a little oil and loves. Some people put a little bit of vasoline to get a perfect bead of blood. Also a tip would be to do a massage to help blood flow to the paw or tip of the tail. Without that you may not get enough blood for the test. Walgreens has 10 dollar glucometers, I have ReliOn from Walmart since they keep the strips out in the aisle and not behind the counter like walgreens. If I need strips at 3am, I can just do a quick drive over there.
Thanks! I'll have to upload pics soon. By the way, on a personal note good luck with grad school! I work with a lot of chemical engineers (I'm an aero myself) and I let passing the entrance exam or not to be the deciding factor of whether or not to continue past the Master's program. I loved it but it was very hard to manage money and time. I adopted by first ferret Khobi my first year into the Master's program because I really wanted a critter to love and keep company. I did a ton of research before I got her, but that was in 1997 and I've had ferrets ever since. Zoey, Mia, Harry, Sable, Otis, Gabriel and Fretka are the ones I've since lost. Alvin is the last one now. We may get another ferret about Alvin's age if our rescue finds one that gets along with Alvin. Although, we are trying to have a human baby as well so we will have to see what happens. Alvin seems okay as an only fert, but I do understand the need for a companion of your own species.
Can't wait for the picture! I wanna see the little guy <3 The entire thing with grad school is up in the air right now. I have to wait until sometime in the summer to see if I got accepted. The PhD program for chemistry is verrrrry competitive and even with my GPA and job experience, I didnt get in last year. If I don't get in this year, I'll take a lab manager position and work on potentially an AA in criminal justice and a Masters in forensic science. We'll see, again everything is up in the air and I hate it lol. I would prefer to conduct research but I can work with what I'm given.
That's pretty cool that you have your masters. One could only wish lol. One day though! Ferts can be single ferret, you just gotta give them a little more attention and loving. Make sure that they don't get bored and stuff. You can make him a rice (or bean) box to go digging or have him explore (supervised) the no-no areas of the house? A walk around the front yard. Something new every now and then. I remember when I took my 2 to the park once. Tiny stuck his face directly into the sand and I panicked hahaha.
Human babies, I'm not ready for those yet. Actually, I'm not sure I could have them yet. I haven't been tested but I have a condition that makes it difficult to get pregnant. It's in the back burner until I finish a higher degree lol. But, that's awesome that you're trying! You've had practice with the ferts so when you do get pregnant, you'll be a great mom!
Hope to hear from you soon!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 8:14:19 GMT -5
Let's do this: frankenprey now that I know Alvin will eat the commercial FDR that will work nicely when he goes to the ferret sitter. If it's healthier and if we can get away from issues with commercial availability let's go that route. Back in January when Alvin stopped eating kibble (this is before we started venturing out into raw) I went for something easy after he started eating soupie. I took a sick day today so I'll spend some time today printing the documents off the forum. I would probably start with the meat grinder and slowly start increasing the size of the pieces mixed in with the ground. I wanted the grinder (very cheap find off of Overstock) to help reduce the time of cutting up the slivers. Before you were paired with me Celene was suggesting also to freeze the meat section just solid enough to use a veggie peeler and use that to slice the meats. That would be perfect for stepping up the size of slivers. Make smaller ribbons instead of full grind. I like how you related ferrets to toddlers. Alvin turned his nose up to the chicken Stella's today. I guess it isn't what he wanted (i.e. Turkey or even consistency) but I didn't offer him anything else. I'll try again with his plate in a bit. I'll look for that meter at Walmart. That sounds like a good option. I like easy. Here are some recent pics of Alvin. Such a sweetie! Here are some of his body length pictures that are on his unofficial switching thread as well: From Jan: From March:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 11:38:27 GMT -5
I got a Cornish game hen and some beef (packaged for stew). I know I shouldn't introduce at the same time. we have chicken thighs in the fridge but it has a sell by date of march 24 so it may not be healthy at this point?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 16:08:54 GMT -5
Let's do this: frankenprey now that I know Alvin will eat the commercial FDR that will work nicely when he goes to the ferret sitter. If it's healthier and if we can get away from issues with commercial availability let's go that route.
Awesome!!! So how do you want to do it, a slow gradual change to frankenprey or more of a commercial raw in the AM and frankenprey at night? If you think about it, they get 14 meals a week. 7-9 of those meals has to consist of bone-in meats (chicken thigh, turkey neck, bones that they can chew on with muscle meat attached), 1.5 of that has to be heart meals, 0.5 liver and 0.5 other organ, the remainder is for muscle meat only. The total should be 14. The 7-9 meals depends on how Alvin does with bones. Too much and his stools become to dry so we back off a meal or 2, too mushy and we need to add. But, since he'll still be on FDR we need to adjust the meals by a bit since FDR is considered a balanced meal (much like whole-prey). So if you want to do half/ half we need to adjust accordingly. So, that's why I'm asking how you would like to approach this since you are the one who will have to go out shopping and chopping.
I know he's taking in small slivers, but how do you feel about reverting him back to soups? We can use soups, which he acccepts, to introduce the grinds slowly then thicken the soup and increase the grinds and then introduce slivers again? Slow process but to make sure he's accepting the change.
Back in January when Alvin stopped eating kibble (this is before we started venturing out into raw) I went for something easy after he started eating soupie. I took a sick day today so I'll spend some time today printing the documents off the forum.
The same thing happened to Tiny when his insu got really bad. It was the second I joined HFF. I didn't know what forums were back then but my Bf was always on car forums soooo why wouldn't there be one for ferrets! Lol. The reason this happens is because insulinoma causes them to feel sick or nauseous. When you feel like that, you really don't even want to look at food.
I would probably start with the meat grinder and slowly start increasing the size of the pieces mixed in with the ground. I wanted the grinder (very cheap find off of Overstock) to help reduce the time of cutting up the slivers. Before you were paired with me, Celene was suggesting also to freeze the meat section just solid enough to use a veggie peeler and use that to slice the meats. That would be perfect for stepping up the size of slivers. Make smaller ribbons instead of full grind.
I've never heard of the veggie peeler idea! That sounds pretty awesome. The grinder, does that also grind bones or do you have a meat tenderizer? We can start him on munching on crushed small pieces of bone mixed in with the grinds. Nature's variety's frozen raw has little bits of bones in them.
I got a Cornish game hen and some beef (packaged for stew). I know I shouldn't introduce at the same time. we have chicken thighs in the fridge but it has a sell by date of march 24 so it may not be healthy at this point?
WOOO! I can't find cornish game hen here So, so far you have cornish game hen (bones included?), beef (what part), pork (what part), and chicken (thigh, heart, and liver)? Let me know everything that you have available so we can work on a schedule for the weekend or next week! For now you can offer him some soup (the raw soup we have posted) with some FDR ^_^
Now on regards to the meats. You're only refrigerating them and not freezing? I know that the freezer has more ice packs and little space in there. The shelf life of refrigerated meats is about 2 days, it's better to freeze them and thaw them out. Regarding the chicken, expired meat is typically fine for ferrets. Although, if it does go rancid (smells bad) they will not eat it. So if it smells bad, they will not eat it.
A fellow mentor posted this regarding meats:
Just thought I would share that with you so that you can have some piece of mind regarding how long meat stays out.
He's so adorable by the way!! Just wanna kiss that little nose haha. The 3rd picture down reminds me soooooo much of my Tiny, although he was a sable. He used to hang out with me in bed, Pinky did not like the bed so much.
And sorry for taking a while to respond, I'm at work and trying to work on the vet list. It needs a massive update and editting >.< If you want me to list your vet, let me know (Vet's name, clinic name, address if you have it) and I'll add it. All the vets are collected from the majority of the ferret forums/ FB pages.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 6:52:45 GMT -5
Thanks! That snippet of the post with times will be helpful. The Cornish game hen is a frozen full bird. The beef didn't say what part (packaged by the grocery butcher). I may just get a new package of chicken thigh and I need to get the pork still. What do you suggest? I checked the grinder and it will not do bone so I will get a meat tenderizer for breaking bones. Alvin is not eating a lot of the chicken Stella's but his energy is still pretty good. He may be having some seasonal allergies. Vet gave me a dose of children's benadryl to try but you know how much ferrets like cherry flavoring. Other than that maybe he is starting his spring lighter eating plus he is now good with proper nutrients? Thanks so much for your help! Looking forward to having some homework this weekend,
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 19:17:26 GMT -5
Sorry for the late response, the vet list is brutal. Finally caught up! I had 8 pages of vet's that I had to google individually.
The Cornish game hen is a frozen full bird. OOOOOH! That's good! You can crush up the bones and grind up the meat and feed them together. We're not there yet but it's an idea!
The beef didn't say what part (packaged by the grocery butcher). I may just get a new package of chicken thigh and I need to get the pork still. What do you suggest? I checked the grinder and it will not do bone so I will get a meat tenderizer for breaking bones. Was it ground beef? You can feed that! Parts of the pork? Hmmm... I haven't fed pork in a good while but If you're going to get anything with bone, he cannot have the bone. The bone would be too hard for him to gnaw on.
Alvin is not eating a lot of the chicken Stella's but his energy is still pretty good. He may be having some seasonal allergies. Vet gave me a dose of children's benadryl to try but you know how much ferrets like cherry flavoring. Other than that maybe he is starting his spring lighter eating plus he is now good with proper nutrients? Thanks so much for your help! Looking forward to having some homework this weekend
I'm glad that his energy is still good. Since you mentioned allergies, you haven't noticed any funky stools after he eats chicken right? Some ferrets have issues with chicken. Something called Inflammatory Bowel Disease. Hopefully it is not that and just the seasonal weight loss since it is spring now.
Okay, so last time I explained how the meals work. 14 meals a week
- 7-9 Bone-in Meals
- 1.5 heart meals
- 1.5 liver and Other organ (Kidney, Spleen, etc.) meals
- The remainder = Muscle meat
So for example, let's say Alvin can have 8 bone-in meals to achieve perfect poops (not too dry, not too watery). With what you currently have (game hen, pork, chicken thighs, heart, and liver) make me a weeks worth of a balanced menu. Of course I'm not going to throw you into the ringer without help or an example! lol.
Example Menu:
Here is my unfinished example. Maybe you can help me finish it? It's color coded because I'm a visual person. (Your homework does not have to be on excel, I just use excel on a daily basis and it makes it easier for me to see everything out and color coded. Your's can be hand written if you want. Whatever is easier for you is fine by me!)
Here we have :
- 6 Bone-in Meals
- 0.5 heart meals
- 1.5 liver/ other organ meals
- 2 muscle meals
This is a total of 10 meals. This particular ferret is like alvin so he needs 8 bone-in meals. So he needs 2 more bone-in meals, that brings up the total to 12. We're missing 1 whole meal of hearts, so that brings the count up to 13 meals. Now we look at the outline and we've hit all of them sooo, 1 meal of muscle it is.
I hope this was able to help you understand how the balanced out frankenprey menu works. If you're still confused, that's okay.. I was confused when I started! Always feel free to ask me anything even if you think it's a stupid question. I'm here to help you every step of the way.
Okay so the whole game hen can be broken into quarters so there are 4 meals there! You have chicken thighs and (soon) pork. Plan out a menu for me.
A tip regarding the 1.5 hearts and 1.5 liver/ other organ. Some give 1 whole meal one day and to get the other half, they do half heart and half liver/ other organ like my example. Some sprinkle on eggshell or bone meal to the liver/ other organ meals to help firm up the stools because they tend to be very slimey and some ferts can get a small prolapse. It all depends on the ferret.
Happy homeworking! There's no due date really but if you do get confused, I will work on it with you. This is the first one and soon we'll be applying your menus to alvins real menu with his grinds!
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