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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2015 16:00:50 GMT -5
This is great! Alvin had stella's this morning but tonight I will try 6 hearts plus 1 Oz of liver with 1/4 top eggshell. I'm going to grind the chicken thighs, beef (which is cubed right now for stews but the package did not say what cut), and pork chop. I'm still working up the full menu for the rest of the week but I think I u Der stand the breakdown in general.
Since Alvin hasn't tried bone before would it be best to start him off with adding eggshell or bone meal or to try to crush the smaller bones (such as chicken wings) with a meat tenderizer? How much should he get? The example says 3 chicken WI go but if I try something else in the meantime if he doesn't take to eating crushed wings?
I went to the Asian market yesterday to check out what they have (only bought the quail eggs): Pork brain, rabbit no bones maybe, uterus, chicken feet, pork belly.
For the quail eggs I think Alvin can have 3 per week? Is that better with a meal or as a snack?
What should I do if he refuses bone in meal (crushed)? With his insulinoma should I keep trying until he eats it or offer him something else? That's part of the tough love exercise we talked about the other day.
Thanks! Happy Easter.
Update. just ground 3 8-Oz (volume not weight) pork tenderloin 2 8-Oz chicken thigh and beef, each
Alvin was served 3 chicken hearts and chicken thigh for dinner With some water and babyfood. He ate about half of it with some prodding from me to get him to chew some pieces and not just lick. He ate the heart I gave him O a spoon and used a box for a feeding den. I will offer him some more later. The store did not have liver tonight (chicken). I did find beef liver frozen so I may try that at some point if he likes beef.
Tomorrow for breakfast I will give him any leftovers from tonight plus some more ground chicken thigh and the other 3 hearts that are defrosting now.
For dinner tomorrow should I offer him some pork? Is it best to offer him a new protein at night when I'm home e to watch him for any signs of allergies?
I hope he likes pork tenderloin. It is the easiest to cut and it would make it a lot easier until he takes larger pieces. I will try chicken wings on Tuesday when I have time to pound them to pieces. Or would the Cornish game hen be easier for both Alvin and myself to try for the first time?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 1:25:14 GMT -5
So strange! I've been checking the thread all day while I was adding vets to the directory and I didnt see anything new until now. How strange. So like always, sorry for the delay lol. Alvin had stella's this morning but tonight I will try 6 hearts plus 1 Oz of liver with 1/4 top eggshell. I'm going to grind the chicken thighs, beef (which is cubed right now for stews but the package did not say what cut), and pork chop. I'm still working up the full menu for the rest of the week but I think I u Der stand the breakdown in general.
Oh! Let me know if he likes the hearts and liver with the eggshells! If it didn't say what portion it was, then we'll count it as muscle meat. I'm glad that you understand the breakdown of the balancing out of the menus. No rush on the menu, Just wanted to get you in the hang of writing one up. Since Alvin hasn't tried bone before would it be best to start him off with adding eggshell or bone meal or to try to crush the smaller bones (such as chicken wings) with a meat tenderizer? How much should he get? The example says 3 chicken WI go but if I try something else in the meantime if he doesn't take to eating crushed wings?You can start him off on eggshells or Bonemeal. Bonemeal is ground up bones and well eggshells are jus eggshells. Whichever is better for you. One is free and the other you have to go out and buy lol. You can take one wing and crush it up as much as possible and mix half of it into his food or less and see how he does. Save the rest of the ground up chicken wing for later use. We can slowly add them into his grind. Kind of like disguising the bones in the grinds. Here's a picture of a whole quail chopped up with bones included. Takes some elbow grease but worth it. If you can get the chicken wings any smaller, the better for him since he'll probably think something is up but it taste so good he don't think much about it. I used to sneak in the pred into spoonfuls of soups. My guys would taste it then the soup, I could see the gears turning in their heads but then they kept munching on. Like sneaking veggies to kids lol. I went to the Asian market yesterday to check out what they have (only bought the quail eggs): Pork brain, rabbit no bones maybe, uterus, chicken feet, pork belly.
For the quail eggs I think Alvin can have 3 per week? Is that better with a meal or as a snack?Ooh! Gotta love asian markets. Brain and uterus will be good for the other organs! The chicken feet can be used as snacks of you can mix them in with some muscle meat to count it as a bone in meal! Pork uterus though... Let me get back to you on that one. I know that ferrets, when they eat whole prey, do not eat the intestines but I'm not 100% on the stomach. Let me ask the other mentors on pork belly. But Good job while on the hunt!! I see possible purchases in your future lol 3 quail eggs = 1 Chicken egg... So correct! You can give it as a snack. Some add an egg to their kids food (meats, soups, etc.) so as long as his stools do not get very loose or slimy, he should be okay. What should I do if he refuses bone in meal (crushed)? With his insulinoma should I keep trying until he eats it or offer him something else? That's part of the tough love exercise we talked about the other day. Since you're worried about this. Put a small portion of finely crushed bone-in into his meal and leave the other portion without the bone-in. Like I explained it earlier. It's all about gradually getting him used to it. If anything, you can mix up the crushed bone-in with a little bit of soups and the grinds. Make it as irresistible as possible. It's all about becoming a master of disguising and remembering that this transition will not happen overnight. Since he has insulinoma, he needs food available. So some FDR left out or his left overs is fine.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 1:41:58 GMT -5
Alvin was served 3 chicken hearts and chicken thigh for dinner With some water and babyfood. He ate about half of it with some prodding from me to get him to chew some pieces and not just lick. He ate the heart I gave him O a spoon and used a box for a feeding den. I will offer him some more later. The store did not have liver tonight (chicken). I did find beef liver frozen so I may try that at some point if he likes beef.
Sounds like a good start! Remember that it's going to take some time for him to adjust. Some owners try handfeeding their ferts the very small slivers covered with a little bit of soup. Remember that I suggested making some soup (slightly thick-thick consistency) and mixing in the grinds/ slivers? We want to make sure he's used to the smaller slivers before we move onto slightly larger slivers and so on. The usual transition is Soup > small slivers > slivers > chunks > organs > bones. So we usually use something they already know to mask the new thing we're trying to introduce.
Tomorrow for breakfast I will give him any leftovers from tonight plus some more ground chicken thigh and the other 3 hearts that are defrosting now.
For dinner tomorrow should I offer him some pork? Is it best to offer him a new protein at night when I'm home to watch him for any signs of allergies?
Breakfast sounds food! Try adding maybe a few drops of salmon oil or any oil he likes into the meal and see if he likes it a little better?
If you feel more confident being at home to watch if he has a reaction to the new protein, then yes feed it at night when you're home. Remember that the time it takes for the food to get digested and come back out the other end is 3-4 hrs. Monitoring stools is how we can tell what is happening inside their stomach so if something doesnt look right, let me know.
I hope he likes pork tenderloin. It is the easiest to cut and it would make it a lot easier until he takes larger pieces. I will try chicken wings on Tuesday when I have time to pound them to pieces. Or would the Cornish game hen be easier for both Alvin and myself to try for the first time?
Let me know how Tuesday goes and I hope he enjoys the pork as well! Cornish game hen is easier to crush into small pieces! Let me know how it goes as well.
Happy Belated Easter to You and Mr. Alvin =)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 12:10:40 GMT -5
After giving Alvin a second chance at dinner last night he figured out he can chew and he likes the raw! Happy dance. He did eat about 2.2 oz of chicken with the other 3 hearts but he pretty much left the hearts. I froze the plate for a few more minutes and left it for him in his playpen so we will see if he ate any of it today. I also rehydrated some Stella's to leave out but I put that in a dish (he prefers plates these days) to hopefully encourage him to eat the hearts first. He usually doesn't eat any of the food I leave for him but with only 2 oz he may change his mind. I'll let you know how the pork goes! Oh yeah, the 2 vets I usein Denver were on your list already.
His evening meal consisted of the leftover heart and some stella's when I got home from work. He didn't eat any of the food I left out for him today. He looked a bit lethargic so I fed him the leftovers immediately. He ate it all with me holding him. That is his new thing right now. He did the same when I started him on soupie. He did eat all of the larger slivers though! The pork hadn't defrosted so when hubby and I went to the store I got him some ground turkey thigh. He really seemed to like that but again I had to hold him. He did have enough energy to chase the kitten. Colby is about 9 months old now and is a bundle of energy. Alvin puts him in his place though!
Tomorow we have turkey, pork, the hen is defrosting and we have liver. He needs his liver serving that was missed yesterday and he also needs his bone in meal. I still want to try breaking down the hen tomorrow night. So if I CA get Alvin to eat 1/4 of the hen he will have 1 of his 8 bone in eats for the week?
If he ate 6 hearts this week, he still needs 3 more (for 1.5 heart meals)? He also needs 1.5 Oz of liver Plus eggshell. That leaves 3 muscle meals. The grinds of chicken, beef, turkey and pork all fit under this? How many ounces of muscle meat is one good serving for Alvin? He is 3 pounds 5.5 oz as of last Friday!
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 0:12:41 GMT -5
After giving Alvin a second chance at dinner last night he figured out he can chew and he likes the raw! Happy dance. He did eat about 2.2 oz of chicken with the other 3 hearts but he pretty much left the hearts. I froze the plate for a few more minutes and left it for him in his playpen so we will see if he ate any of it today. I also rehydrated some Stella's to leave out but I put that in a dish (he prefers plates these days) to hopefully encourage him to eat the hearts first. He usually doesn't eat any of the food I leave for him but with only 2 oz he may change his mind. I'll let you know how the pork goes! Oh yeah, the 2 vets I usein Denver were on your list already.
Ooh he's munching on slivers! That's fantastic news! (dance)
His evening meal consisted of the leftover heart and some stella's when I got home from work. He didn't eat any of the food I left out for him today. He looked a bit lethargic so I fed him the leftovers immediately. He ate it all with me holding him. That is his new thing right now. He did the same when I started him on soupie. He did eat all of the larger slivers though! The pork hadn't defrosted so when hubby and I went to the store I got him some ground turkey thigh. He really seemed to like that but again I had to hold him. He did have enough energy to chase the kitten. Colby is about 9 months old now and is a bundle of energy. Alvin puts him in his place though!
I'm glad that you noticed his lethargy and acted immediately. That's great. I've been in the holding phase too. How are you holding him? Is he on your lap and you're holding the bowl/plate? Is he on the floor but you're hovering over him? I had to gradually get Pinky from the holding phase to him eating alone. What I did was first I held him and his bowl together. Then we transitioned to him eating on the floor in between my legs (unfolded and straight out) while I held the bowl while slightly hovering over him. Then I started to hover less and put the bowl down on the ground and slowly back away while he was eating and then he got used to eating alone. The reason I did that was so that he could get used to eating when I'm not around. It's something we tell ferrents, thing is you're not always going to be home to hold him while he eats. We need to break the habit as soon as possible but gradually as always. I'm super excited to hear that he ate larger slivers and that his energy levels (and probably his BG) increased.
Tomorow we have turkey, pork, the hen is defrosting and we have liver. He needs his liver serving that was missed yesterday and he also needs his bone in meal. I still want to try breaking down the hen tomorrow night. So if I CA get Alvin to eat 1/4 of the hen he will have 1 of his 8 bone in eats for the week?
If he ate 6 hearts this week, he still needs 3 more (for 1.5 heart meals)? He also needs 1.5 Oz of liver Plus eggshell. That leaves 3 muscle meals. The grinds of chicken, beef, turkey and pork all fit under this? How many ounces of muscle meat is one good serving for Alvin? He is 3 pounds 5.5 oz as of last Friday!
It sounds like you're trying to follow the unfinished menu that I posted. That was just a template/ example to show you how to balance a menu. Those numbers were based on what one of my previous mentee's ferret ate. Not all ferts eat the same amount of meats. Some eat less during the spring but pig it up during the winter. If you have a scale (I'm pretty sure that you have one) weight the plate/ bowl with the food before feeding and repeat the weighing after feeding to get an idea of how much Alvin is eating. This goes for everything (muscle, hearts, organs, etc.). Furthermore, the 8 bone-in meals in the earlier post was another example. The 7-9 bone-in meals depends on Alvin's stools. If you see that they are becoming toooo dry, back off the bone-in/ bone meal and feed muscle instead but keep track of how many bone-in meals he's getting a week so that you have an idea of how many bone-in meals he can intake without causing his stools to dry up.
So if he did eat 6 hearts, the 3 would count as half. As far as liver goes, see how much he's willing to eat. The idea is to mold a balanced menu around Alvin's needs. If he eats around 2 oz of chicken thigh, it would be wasteful to serve him 4 oz, right? That's the idea behind the scale. weight things out to see how much he's eating. But also you don't want to serve him less than 2 oz (example) and have him eat everything and have no left overs in between his meals. It's all about balance. Once you know how much he's eating, you can begin to eye ball portions out but for now, we're trying to work around Alvin.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 7:13:38 GMT -5
2 oz of turkey thigh plus 2 baby spoon scoops of baby food in addition for breakfast.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 14:34:34 GMT -5
Sounds good!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 21:54:05 GMT -5
Alvin loves pork tenderloin! He ate the 2 oz chicken for breakfast, 1.3 oz of very wet stella's during the day and 1.3 oz pork for dinner. He even ate some of the pork off the plate without me holding him I think part of the reason he likes to eat the bigger pieces while being held is because otherwise the slivers just mush around the plate. He doesn't like bowls at all so I think I will keep an eye out for a baby plate or even recycle a lid from our own food. Maybe something small with a bit of a lip will help.
Alvin had a lot of energy today. He played with the cat for a couple hours (separated by a long nap) but Alvin had more energy than I had tonight! Good day for Alain and he looks so happy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 2:16:52 GMT -5
Ahhh, I'm so happy that he's liking the pork! That's so awesome! Try looking at the cat bowl section. When i was bowl hunting, I saw a little plates/ bowls. When i saw bowls I don't mean tall side bowls, it was more of like wet food kind of plate. I saw them at Walmart years ago though. Recycled lids sounds like a good idea but it might slide? See how that works? It could work for all we know lol.
When are we attempting bone in? If youre not confident to feed it yet, you will need to supplement with bonemeal or eggshell. We can work on him getting used to slivers. It's upto you. Let me know.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 22:07:23 GMT -5
Just a quick update. Alvin ate 2 oz of pork at breakfast, 1 Oz of stella's that I left in his playpen today plus hen and pork for dinner. I wasn't very successful at crushing the one though. I gave Alvin a tip of a wing and he liked it for a while but didn't do more than that. He is eating larger pieces directly off the plate now so progress there! Should I go ahead and give him some liver tomorrow with the egg shell? I saved the rest of the hen in the freezer so I can try again. Need a cleaver I think, similar to the one in your picture. Alvin had a great time playing today. Happy boy!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 1:11:44 GMT -5
Alvin ate 2 oz of pork at breakfast, 1 Oz of stella's that I left in his playpen today plus hen and pork for dinner.
Yes! More success on frankenprey. Loving it!
I wasn't very successful at crushing the one though. I gave Alvin a tip of a wing and he liked it for a while but didn't do more than that. I saved the rest of the hen in the freezer so I can try again. Need a cleaver I think, similar to the one in your picture.
Yeah, crushing bones isn't my forte either. Hopefully with the cleaver you can get it smaller. As far as Alvin liking the tip f the wing, YES! At least he didn't spit it back outand ignore it! It shows interest and adding bones may not be as bad as you thought!
He is eating larger pieces directly off the plate now so progress there! Should I go ahead and give him some liver tomorrow with the egg shell? Alvin had a great time playing today. Happy boy!
You can give him liver. Remember that it's 1.5 meals a week of liver/ other organ. Since he's starting out, liver is fine but sooner or later we need to add in the other organ. Eggshell, yes as well. I was going to have you add eggshells to his meats as well since he's not on bone-in yet. The ratio is 1/2tsp to every 8oz meat, 2/3 to 10oz. But since he's eating about 2oz per meal it'd be 1/8 tsp. I forgot to mention that, I'm sorry about that.
I'm so happy that he's eating slightly larger slivers. Way to go Alvin!! I'm curious about their size, would you mind showing me the size of the slivers? I just wanna see where we are. If you can, of course =)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 7:20:40 GMT -5
Thanks! He had 1 oz of liver and I mixed in 1/4 tsp eggshell. Added some ground turkey to it as well. Also a baby spoon sized scoop of baby food. That is his only treat and it helps him get started eating off his plate. I have larger pieces of the Cornish hen and I'll give him a couple of the larger pieces just to see what he does with it. His slivers are the size of ground meats. Before they were very tiny pieces that would be much more like soup. I will try to get some pics later. I saw your post after I served breakfast. Talk to you a bit later!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 18:14:03 GMT -5
Here is a picture of a typical plate for Alvin (this is hen and ground turkey). It is more of a paste consistency - trying to break away from the licking with soup. Here is a bigger sliver of hen. It is sitting on a baby spoon on top of a small fork for size comparison. He went for it right away, went to his feeding box and I seriously thought he was going to drop it and walk away. He ate the whole piece. His largest so far! Just for fun - here is a picture of Alvin from Christmas (before his switch). He was not too happy about being dressed, but he is mighty fine looking, if I do say so myself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 1:53:20 GMT -5
What a great accomplishment!!! I can't believe he ate such a big sliver. Perhaps he's ready for bigger slivers! ahh how awesome!
And great job on chopping up the hen! ^-^ did the hen had the pieces of bone in them? I couldn't really tell. Great things are happening sooner than I thought ^-^
Keep up the great work! Oh, how's the menu working out by the way? Just wondering.
I absolutely LOVEEEE his little man suit. Where did you get that? I have never seen something sooo adorable.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2015 16:36:17 GMT -5
Do you recommend Hare today for bone in meals? What about Wysong for treats (not for meals)? i was supposed to be able to pick up a container of chicken hearts from whole foods today but they didn't come in. so, Alvin has had heart, pork and got some beef today but so far he isn't liking beef so much. I am still trying to work in bones or eggshell. should I add some eggshell to some of the muscle meat (would that equal a bone in meal)? Thanks!
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