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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 10:00:49 GMT -5
And I will post pictures of the bloodwork and hope it is readable on here.
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 21, 2014 13:59:26 GMT -5
Ok, in my opinion, jumping to the conclusion of parasites based on blood work is pretty sketchy. There are several things that can cause strange blood work that are far more likely than parasites. Also, if you put them on kibble you WILL see a change in their poops because kibble poops ARE different than raw poops. We still need to see what her poops have been like. MANY farrents panic because of the poop change.
Now this isn't to say I don't think there is anything wrong with Pearl, obviously there is but I still find it highly unlikely that it is parasites. Are you sourcing your meats at a grocery store? If so, the chance of parasites is very low. We find it much more likely that it is either some kind of bacterial overload that the antibiotics just aren't dealing with well, a food sensitivity / allergy or something else.
Honestly, I'd toss the batch of meat you are using that you suspect has parasites in it. Buy new meat from a new source (different brand, different store) and then use the anti-parasitic meds you were given. If nothing changes then you KNOW it isn't a parasite because the meds didn't help. The chances of the new meat having parasites as well as the suspected meat is VERY, VERY LOW.
To give you an idea. I've been doing this for 4 years now and I think I've seen 1 confirmed case of parasitic infection in some rescued ferrets from a farm in the UK. That's 1 confirmed case between the FB page and the forum combined. That's a LOT of ferrets.
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 21, 2014 14:08:56 GMT -5
The first link you posted is not even raw food. It is a kibble or home cooked meals site. Also, look at the ingredients they require for an "approved menu" (lentils, bananas, cabbage, PEAS, etc). Also, they REQUIRE you to buy their supplements.
So basically they are asking you to prepare a COOKED species inappropriate menu (obligate carnivores remember). THEN they want you to buy their supplements to replace what the cooking has removed.
The second link just goes to a universities nutritional course information for vets. Not sure what that is for.
Honestly to me, your vet sounds like he is passively aggressively trying to convince you NOT to do raw. In the end it is your own choice but at the moment, the service you are getting from your vet sounds very suspicious to me. I'd be getting a second opinion if it were me. I'd suggest going to another vet, do not even mention raw (or the previous visits) and see what diagnosis they come up with.
Remember Pearl hasn't lost any weight as of yet so she is still getting what she needs nutritionally.
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Post by Heather on Nov 21, 2014 17:57:07 GMT -5
Hi there.....I've been reading through this and one thing to remember about raw fed animals and blood work...the base lines that you see are for kibble fed ferrets. Raw fed ferrets have different readings. If you could post here it would be appreciated, that way we can help you understand what it is that's being seen. I've had a couple of vets try and mess with my head regarding blood work, I don't tolerate it anymore. Your little girls stools, should have shown up positive for parasites if they were there. Bacteria issue maybe not so much, there are a couple that sometimes don't show positive all the time. Are you using frankenprey and are all your meats grocery store? not hunted meats? You will not find parasites in grocery store meats (bacteria, salmonella yes, not parasites). These meats are federally inspected. There has been a fallacy that has been perpetuated since forever that by feeding raw meats pets get worms or parasites....chances are they had fleas first...they cause worms. It's just that, a fallacy and vets know this but they do a really good job at perpetuating this. It sells worming powders when you don't need them and it keeps would be raw feeders running scared. I honestly believe that's where you're at right now in dealing with this vet. See if you can post, a pic of a stool sample from your little girl and get the copy of the blood work posted this could help us see where the infection is and how it relates to the blood work. What is the anti-parasitic that is being used? Parasites aren't like infections, they require very specific meds to cure them, so your vet is going to have to have some idea as to what he's treating. There are very few parasites you can get by eating raw meats and they're well known. All are considered game meats or are from wild foraging stock. So unless your ferret has a brain prion .....or toxoplasmosis (caused from eating raw wild game...usually mice) you should be made aware as to what that parasite is. Toxoplasmosis the most common parasite has to be treated by a medical doctor as well as you need to be treated too. It's harmless to most hosts and most people don't even know they've got it. What are you feeding right now? What is the bone to meat ratio? or egg shell or bone meal? Have you tried some pumpkin? 1 tsp is the dosage. I've been feeding raw for close to 30 yrs, a lot of prey animals and hunted game too....I've never encountered this type of parasitic concern. I've also dealt with a lot of vets, some are very subtle about their dislike of raw feeding and can be a real pain at mis-diagnosing just enough to scare people. They're the ones that are really scary because a full bull rant you can understand, subtle insinuations and manipulations of test results that you're not probably going to understand in the first place is just bad business (but you're more likely to listen and not get angry). How you choose to feed your wee ones is your business and I can't change your mind, but don't let a manipulative vet give you false information that scares you away from something that you know is right for your wee ones. Constant loose stools, is a problem but there are a lot of dietary avenues to check before resorting back to kibbles which you know will cause your ferret health issues in the long run. ciao
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 21, 2014 18:29:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the input Heather. I appreciate it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 23:30:13 GMT -5
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Post by Heather on Nov 22, 2014 2:24:45 GMT -5
Ok....I've only really looked at your flyers (highs and lows). Anyone who's a chemist or medical student (katt) will be better able to interpret this than I...Here's my go using the information that I've got MHC came in at 18.1....normal reading for a ferret is 15.5 to 19....your ferret falls within the normal range..higher but he's a raw fed ferret so it's been known that this happens MCHC came in at 37.7....normal reading is 29 to 36...high but not over the top...again a raw fed ferret will come in slightly higher than a kibble fed ferret WBC came in at 10.04.....normal readings is 2.5 to 8.0...high...what this test is for AKA Leukocytes- it's the bodies defence against bacteria, virus and fungi. Increased numbers represent body fighting an infection. NEU came in 3.45.....normal range is .62 to 3.30....over the high end but if fighting an infection might be an understanding. EOS (Eosinophils) came in at 1.50....normal range is 0.1 to 0.6. this is high but...This is produced in the bone marrow. It's the bodies ability to destroy foreign bodies. Increased numbers can indicate current infection or allergy and depending symptoms IBD. PLT came in at 21...this number I find concerning so I'm hoping Katt or someone can help me out here. The is related to the bodies ability to clot blood. The normal range that I've got is 300 to 700. This would bother me more than any of the numbers I've found so far. GLU is glucose the number as tested is 94...it's still a safe level for a ferret. Normal is 80 to 120. So the ferret's BG level is well within the normal range Creatine is .3 the normal range is .2 to .8 This is to measure the waste product produced and eliminated by kidneys. Increased numbers can indicate kidney disease or dehydration. ALB is 2.6 normal is 2.4 to 4.5.....decreased or low number may indicate damaged intestines (IBD) or kidney disease. Though these numbers are lower they are still within norms. I'm wondering if your ferret has IBD. It's just my thoughts on the information that I've read here. I'm not a vet, nor am I a biologist/chemist. If you can get Katt to look at these numbers, Jason and get her to see what I've thought on it. Please try not to laugh too hard ciao
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Post by katt on Nov 22, 2014 3:08:05 GMT -5
Skimmed through and will post after I read more thoroughly in the am. Definitely have some feedback.... I will say this though. Diagnosing parasites based off of elevated eosinophils without doing any sort of fecal and/or blood culture to LOOK for parasites is absolutely absurd.
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Post by Heather on Nov 22, 2014 3:55:59 GMT -5
I believe there was a fecal done. It was negative. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 9:06:12 GMT -5
Yes, fecal was negative. Which is confusing to me. I would think if they both have parasites, fecal would come back positive n matter what?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 9:14:24 GMT -5
Heather, you seem very knowlegable, being able to tell me about these numbers. Can I ask what your background is?
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 22, 2014 9:26:50 GMT -5
I can tell you...20+ years of being a raw feeder and having MULTIPLE rescues during that time (usually 5+). Bought books and had LOTS of experience with ALL the typical ferret issues over the years (adrenal, insulinoma, IBD, lymphoma, heart disease, etc). katt is currently a med student so can read the labs quite well. We also have a chemistry lab technician on staff, a lawyer when we need legal advise and people with several other skills. Besides ferret knowledge, our skills base between the mentors / admins is quite varied and you'd be surprised how often it can be useful.
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Post by Heather on Nov 22, 2014 11:45:09 GMT -5
I'm curious. Where's the lab's conclusion or summation on these tests. There's always a conclusion page, at least we usually get one up here. That seems to not be there. Whenever, I've sent blood work or lab work to be done the lab comes to some vague conclusion. Either they write that their interpretation of the results was inconclusive or that further testing is required or their interpretation of the results, asking the vet to refine his blood work search...especially the parasite results. It's often only a one liner...inconclusive is often the ferret results (headwall) which is really frustrating. I had one come back from a lymphoma ferret with really high white count (WBC and a couple of others) but the lab only asked to have the vet run the test again as it was "inconclusive". I returned twice for the test with the same results. I lost it at that point and told her to treat him as a lymphoma (which she thought it's what it was but wanted the lab results to back her up and her clinic was pushing for more testing) Sometimes it's not the vet but the corporation behind the vet that's doing the pushing. To cut costs in our area and to create a high level of care, several of the vets in the area formed a corporation. I often wondered how legal it was because it involved price fixing....but that being said it did allow the vets to be able to carry equipment that they'd previously not been able to afford and have access to shared surgeons and specialists. If you needed an ultra sound then your vet would schedule you with this other clinic and you could get an ultra sound done. The issue I had was the pushing of Hills products on their clients as this "corporation" type system allowed for huge kickbacks from the kibble companies. They also helped pay for some of the higher or more expensive equipment like updated surgery theaters, incubators and such. If you were a raw feeder all diseases and health issues" seemed to be all created from the same thing...raw feeding. Everything from parasites to the cough were caused by the diet. The pressure to change to "their" kibbles was huge. That's when I started to learn how to read the blood work for my furkids. That's when I started to ask for full copies of all tests and xrays. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 12:35:18 GMT -5
Heather, I'm responding to your questions from your post you made last night here:
I feel terrible that my girls have been on kibble since Thursday night, Nov. 20th. But when we were eating soups, it was grocery store chicken (most recently thighs and legs but they got sick when the chicken breasts were in the soups instead of thighs and legs.), cow liver from either Hare Today, a local butcher store, or a family farm in Iowa. The hearts we were using were turkey hearts from Hare Today.
You mentioned that they could have had fleas first which cause worms. I don't think there is any way they could have had fleas. I saw no signs of that. You also said that the vet could have told me that to sell deworming powder. He didn't try to sell me anything like that. And I don't get the impression from him in the least that he is in this to make money off of people. He really is a genuinely kind doctor so I don't believe that is a possibility with him.
The anti parasitic medication is Panacur. It is in powder form and we mix it in with one meal per day. Currently, like I mentioned above, we are back on Marshall kibble that I had left over from before our switch. Until this gets sorted out and I chose a path to go on from here, I'd like to get them on some type of Wysong. I'll have to order it online though because no local pet shops carry it here. So to get them to eat the medication, I've mixed it into a raw egg (they split one egg so they don't get too much) I've had to mix in a little of their raw with that though because that's how they are used to eating their egg and aren't interested in it very much unless the raw is in it. That doesn't make me feel great either because if this meat is what made them sick, for whatever reason, I'm not helping them at all.
Our recipe has been as follows for the soups: 5 oz pureed chicken thigh or leg, 3 oz chunks of the chicken - not pureed, 1 oz turkey heart, 2 oz cow liver, and a little less than 3/4 tsp crushed egg shell. Then, they've been getting 1-2 eggs per week mixed in with their soups.
I've not tried pumpkin yet, although I do have some.
I hate to think that our vet is trying to be manipulative. I do believe he has the best of intentions, as do the mentors and experienced raw feeders here. Perhaps its a difference in opinions, view points, and perceptions from the different communities and schools of thought??
I like that you suggested trying other dietary avenues first. I'm interested in that option. At the same time, these were sudden changes in our girls' behaviors and symptoms. We'd been off kibble 100% for 7 weeks before Pearl started showing symptoms. I say Pearl, because hers were most concerning of the two ferrets. She was suddenly very lethargic and uninterested in playing at all. And she's my "can't slow her down for nuthin" kind of girl. Bea's only symptoms were that she was making little congested pig like snorting sounds when she was sleepy and her poops were runny some of the time. After they were both put on antibiotics, they improved. Bea improved almost 100% within a few days but still has some runny poops but some more solid poops, Pearl only improved partially. Her poops didn't get better, still runny and extremely smelly. Her energy level was not as low, but still substantially less than before getting sick. This is why I don't think its related to the type of meat they were eating. It was very sudden. But something either environmental, totally separate from their diet, OR something wrong with one of the batches of food. This is my quandary. I have you all, who I have grown to truly respect and look up to as mentors and sources of information, and I have my vet that has also knowledgeably seen us through surgeries, illnesses, and regular check ups over the past two years. He sees all sorts of exotics and knows things about ferrets I've "tested" him on in conversations. I've mentioned things to him casually that I have learned along the way that are particular to ferrets. Things that not all people would know if they didn't specifically know about ferrets and think they are just like any other animal. He does seem to know these things. So I don't think he is an incompetent ferret vet, like I've learned to be watchful of.
If we were to go the route you suggested of trying something different with different meats, how would I go about doing that? Different sources than I've been accessing? Local farmers that don't process meat in larger plants? I live in Minnesota so there are a ton of local farms I'm sure I could access. But again, things were going great for a while before this happened so I'm inclined to say it is not related to the type of meat but rather something in it, or something completely unrelated like something in their environment.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 12:56:04 GMT -5
Thank you, Jason. That is helpful to know about your backgrounds as mentors.My vet suggested I contact a board certified veterinary nutritionist. I found their website and searched for anyone with anything mentioning ferret knowledge in their profiles. Of course, none of them had that. And this is a world wide board. There were two people with knowledge of raw diets. I contacted a Dr. Hill. This is our email correspondence: Dr. Hill, I found your email address on the American College of Veterinary Nutrition's website. I'm wondering if you can help me. I'm interested in learning more about a diet for my ferrets. I've been feeding raw for a short time but ran into a medical problem and my vet suspects it's from the raw meat. I've done some of my own research and have believed in a raw diet as the healthiest option but I'm getting the feeling that my vet isn't in support of it. Are you able to tell me anything about raw diets specifically in ferrets? He suggested I seek advice from a board certified veterinary nutritionist. Dear Ms Johnson We have relatively little solid information about raw diets and ferrets but general principles do apply. There are two primary concerns with raw diets: 1) Raw diets are often not balanced ie they do not contain a balance of essential nutrients such as amino acids, fat, vitamins and minerals. Meat alone does not represent a balanced diet. Though we do not have much information about the exact nutrient requirements of ferrets, we know from practical experience that a cooked premium cat food provides balanced nutrition for ferrets. This suggests that ferrets are similar to cats in that they eat the whole animal guts and all so the diet has to include all the essential nutrients that come from other parts of the carcass than meat. 2) Raw food comes with pathogens such as parasites, bacteria and viruses. Wild animals have a lot of parasites from the raw food that they eat but cooking destroys parasites. Raw food that you buy from the store is often contaminated with potentially pathogenic bacteria, which are also killed by cooking. Contamination is less likely to affect wild prey animals because prey are not processed in large facilities where cross-contamination can occur. If you are feeding raw whole adult mice that you catch and treat your ferret for worms regularly then you may be OK feeding raw, but feeding raw meat from the store carries a risk for many pathogens. Cooking kills pathogens and cooked pet foods contain extra amounts of vitamins to allow for any destroyed by cooking. Raw diets are not therefore the healthiest options as you state. On the contrary, cooked diets represent the healthiest option. In short, I agree with your veterinarian that a commercial diet is the best way to feed your ferret. A canned cat food is probably among the best solutions Best wishes Richard Hill Richard Hill MA VetMB PhD DACVIM DACVN MRCVS Associate professor, Chief of the Small Animal Internal Medicine, Nutrition and Integrative Medicine Services, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida, Would there be any reason not to believe a board certified veterinary nutritionist? It seems like that would be "thee" source of nutritional knowledge. If there is little knowledge about the exact nutrient requirements of ferrets, how do we know the soup recipe and the menu are adequate and appropriate? And if there are pathogens in raw meat and the only way to get rid of them is to cook them, how is raw safe? AND if he says raw is not as safe, how on earth do all of you do it and not have issues all the time? ....... I feel like my head is going to explode......... Please know I am not trying to be difficult. This seems to be getting away from a switching thread, so if I need to be moved off the mentor program and continue this conversation elsewhere (if you all can even stand me anymore ) I completely understand. I want to be respectful of Jason and his other potential mentees that are waiting. Also, please know I am not trying to challenge all of you and your experience and knowledge. I'm simply trying my hardest to make the best decisions for my girls as possible. Thank you all for your time, knowledge, and patience. It is truly appreciated. You all do an amazing job at educating and always refraining from being judgmental and that is not something people could find just anywhere.
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