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Post by bitbyter on Nov 13, 2014 19:01:09 GMT -5
ok, I have to apologize, I got this thread mixed up with my other mentee. My bad.
How thick is the soup you are making?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 21:26:10 GMT -5
No problem Sorry, I was going to post this last night but I got really lazy after work and didn't go online. Here is a pic and a video so you can see their food. I put a quarter on the plate so you could see the size of the chunks. Not sure if that helps.....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 21:32:54 GMT -5
Ooops the video didn't upload. Should I be able to post a video on here? I'm clicking upload image and nothing happens.....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 21:45:00 GMT -5
I have some questions...
1)should I worry about chicken skin being a choking hazard in their soups at this point in their switch? I try to cut the skin pieces small enough but I guess I still worry, especially with some of the bigger pieces. Should they be alright chewing on the tough skin?
2)Is it normal to chew on the skin with part of it hanging out of their mouths for so long? They chew and chew and chew and eventually swallow it but I fear that there's like this long, stringy stuff stretching down their throats while they're chewing and I just fear it's going to clog their little airways. Am I worrying too much?
3) They both seem to still be shedding. When should that end? I'm in southern Minnesota. For their shedding season, I'm feeding an egg mixed into their soups twice per week. So they are basically each getting one egg per week, half one day and half another day. Is that enough or should I do more?
4) Pearl was originally put on antibiotics two weeks ago tomorrow because she was very lethargic. October 31st, she didn't want to play at all. She came out of the cage when I let her out and she crawled into a blanket and went to sleep. She had no desire to play or stay awake. She got a little better after getting on an antibiotic (and then another antibiotic a couple days later) but is still more lethargic than is normal for her. Do you have any ideas what could be going on? We ran out of antibiotic on Tuesday night. She should have had it through tonight. The vet said it should be alright not to refill the scrip so we didn't. Pearl will play for about a half hour and then put herself to bed. That's not like her at all. Normally, she has full blown energy for about an hour and a half before putting herself to bed. So this quick slowdown is really unusual for her. She had a BG test last saturday and it was normal - 120. Our vet is going to check in with us on Monday to see about an update but nothing has changed in a little less than 2 weeks.
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 16, 2014 10:23:13 GMT -5
1) Yes and no. You can cut it up smaller if you wish (scissors work best for that or a REALLY sharp knife). The thing is there WILL most likely be some choking during the switch. It is part of the learning process. They need to figure out the best way to eat different things. Luckily, because raw is wet / slimy, it is easy for them to cough stuff up. We have yet to even hear of a ferret die from choking so I really wouldn't worry yourself about it to much.
2) Yep, like I said. It is a learning process. You can cut it up smaller if you want to. Keep in mind though, THEY know what the best size is for them so you might just want to leave it to them. We find more gagging happens when people make stuff to small than to big. They think they are small enough and try to swallow it whole.
3) It ends when it ends. Some years are fast, some years are slow. Mine are slow this year as well. Started late and taking a long time. I'd up it to two eggs a week during shedding season.
4) What was the original reason for going on the drugs? Was the BG check done after a 4 hour fast?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 14:01:00 GMT -5
Intake Pearl: 11/13 - 4.2 oz 11/14 - 4.8 oz (half an egg with evening meal is included in this amount) 11/15 - 3 oz (half an egg with evening meal is included in this amount)
Beatrix: 11/13 - 5.5 oz 11/14 - 4.9 oz (half an egg with evening meal is included in this amount) 11/15 - 4.5 oz (half an egg with evening meal is included in this amount)
*Recipe is has not varied since last post.**
I'm noticing they are eating less but I attribute that to the fact that they do not have a serving in their cage for a few hours at a time since I'm feeding them separately from each other in an effort to get separate amounts for each of their intake. I leave it in for maybe 20 minutes in the morning but they have access to it for longer at night after I get home from work. I am a little concerned that Pearl's intake is less than it has been since she has been acting differently lately but she's maintaining weight for the most part.
Weight History: Pearl: 9/28 1 lb 9 oz 9/29 1 lb 8.3 oz 10/5 1 lb 7.4 oz 10/12 1 lb 11.4 oz 10/19 1 lb 10.2 oz 11/8 1 lb 1.2 oz 11/16 1 lb 11.4 oz
Beatrix: 9/28 2 lb 8.5 oz 9/29 2 lb 6.4 oz 10/5 2 lb 5.4 oz 10/12 2 lb 3.6 oz 10/19 2 lb 3.8 oz 11/8 2 lb 3.8 oz 11/16 2 lb 4 oz
**Update on Pearl** Pearl's energy level continues to be much less than what is normal. You asked about the original reason she was on antibiotics. She was originally put on Betryl on November 1st. The night before, she hardly wanted to move. She came out of her cage to play and just crawled under an electric throw blanket and went to sleep. She even let me hold her while she was wrapped up in the blanket. That's very unlike her. She does not like to hold still or be held when she is sleepy. I was concerned. So I got her in the next day and the vet decided to try putting her on this antibiotic. She had a little improvement in the next couple days but it has been unchanged since then. So now we are going on about 2 weeks of her coming out of the cage, running around a bit (not overly lethargic at all.) but then going back into the cage within a half hour. She typically would play for well over an hour before going to bed on her own. Her poops are still runny, maybe even more runny than when on the antibiotic. I was attributing the runny/stinky poops to being on the antibiotic but she's been off that since last Tuesday night and they are even more runny, less formed, and super stinky 5 days later.
I have a new theory as of last night and will talk to our vet about it tomorrow. Does this sound like a blockage to you at all? That's what I'm wondering if it is. She had been chewing rubber toys and wires obsessively a few weeks ago. I thought maybe she was missing chewing her kibble so stupidly, I let her for a week or so. Then I spooked myself because we had a tragedy with our ferret, Olive, in the past. (I don't know for sure that that is what killed her but she had a near death experience from the chewing the remote control buttons the year or so before she died of what I suspect was another blockage). So I did remove those toys from her reach but she did chew a cord in half entirely. And with the recent post on the facebook page about Kat's ferret chewing a FireWire, it just got me wondering. What do you think? I'll up their egg intake for the shedding season since you suggested that anyway. That should help if it's a blockage. And I can try to get some pumpkin into her today too. I'd like your permission to post this on the facebook page now that I've said it to you. I'd like some feedback from people.
Oh, and you asked if the BG was done after 4 hours of fasting. It was done after 2 hours of fasting. That was what the vet suggested.
Another question I have for you is about getting our next order of meat. Would you suggest keeping our recipe similar or the same or would it be ok to introduce something different to put in our soups? I was thinking duck at rabbit hearts and livers. Is there anything else I can do in place of the chicken thighs and legs? I feel like they've been eating the same thing forever and might like some variation but then again, ferrets don't do well with change in their diet sometimes!
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 16, 2014 18:05:16 GMT -5
Remember to post exactly what they are eating beside the food weights please. It just makes it easier for me to quickly see things.
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 18, 2014 20:36:23 GMT -5
I would suggest tring a new protein with Pearl. Maybe rabbit or lamb and try to stay totally away from chicken. I'm wondering if she might have a sensitivity to chicken.
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 19, 2014 13:55:38 GMT -5
When you actually get the new order, star by mixing the two soup recipes in a small ratioi. 1/4 new soup, 3/4 old. Then every other day bump it up 1/2 new, 1/2 old, after two days 3/4 new, 1/2 old and then finally after another two days 100% new. Hopefully it is just a sensitivity to chicken.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 15:47:55 GMT -5
I'm copy and pasting the following message from a facebook private message I left Jason in an attempt to get some feedback more quickly than posting it on the forum.
Allison: Jason, I will post this on my thread so you can keep track but I just haven't been on in the last couple days. I've had some very busy non stop days and haven't had time. But last night, I found out why Pearl has been sick. We did a blood test and the vet says the results show she most likely has parasites. Obviously, this would more than likely be from the meat. This makes me sick bc I want to continue feeding raw more than anything but this is really scary. Is there a way to prevent this from happening in the future? Does freezing the meat for a certain amount of time kill parasites? I've gotten next to no sleep bc I really don't know what to do. I'm afraid to feed them their raw but the only thing else I have on hand is the rest of their kibble. And I don't want to feed that either. I'm sorry this is thru fb and not on the thread. I can copy and paste it there later of paraphrase this so all info is there. What info can you offer me?
Jason: Did he say what kind of parasites they were? I'm VERY surprised that parasites would be found in retail meat but then again meat quality is not what it used to be. Revolution or ivermeticin should clear it up. Did your vet give you an anti-parasitic? I'm also wondering if your vet is just trying to scare you out of feeding raw. Please post this in your switching thread so that the other mentors can have a look because I thought most parasite diagnosis were determined by fecal tests, not blood tests. Anyhow, please give me ALL the info your vet gave you and we'll be able to give you more feedback.
Allison: I will do that. Maybe I can even scan and attach the blood test results. Idk ic the forum has that capability but I'll try. He wasn't able to tell what type of parasites. He could only speculate that that's what it was by different levels of stuff in her blood. I don't think he's anti raw at all he's just an advocate for doing it really well and with guidance from people with veterinary nutritional knowledge. He gave me a couple resources to check into to use in conjunction with the HFF forum. I have a doctors apt first thing this morning by will be into work after that. I'm swamped at work but will try to get onto the forum to put this on there. If not during the work day, I'll make time tonight after work.
My main question right now is if parasites can be killed by freezing the meat by a certain amount of time. That would be a really easy fix and something I could easily do as a preventative. Thanks! And again, sorry to contact you outside of the thread. I just wanted a little piece of mind quickly.
Jason: Yes freezing will kill parasties generally a couple of days. The thing is, unless you id the parasites (usually with a fecal test), they could also come from water as well. I'll wait for your post on the forum and the other mentors feedback but pointing the finger at parasites from a blood test is premature in my opinion (I could be wrong though). Honestly to me it sounds like he is grasping at straws trying to come up with an answer. Again, if he thinks it is parasites, did he give you an anti-parasitic to use? If not, why not? That would be the normal course of action if that's what his diagnosis is.
another thing to consider is that Pearl hasn't lost weight. That is a majorly good sign. Her poops and energy may be off but she is getting enough nutrition to maintain her weight.
could you also post some pics of her poops in the switching thread?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 16:00:13 GMT -5
In response to the facebook messages....
Yes, our vet did give us some stuff to put in their food as an anti-parisitic medication. When I asked if I should give it to them in their raw or in their kibble, he said to give raw (I was relieved. As scary as this parasite stuff is, I really don't want to go back to kibble.) with the medicine because they like it and they're used to it. this seems a little counter productive to me but Pearl has been going through this for about 3 weeks now and I'm guessing it was from meat that was not thoroughly frozen. That meat has been made and eaten by now. The stuff they are eating now has been frozen for 72 hours or longer.
I don't have a way of getting any other protein other than chicken to make our next batch of soups so I'll have to go with chicken legs/thighs, turkey hearts, and cow liver (our usual mixture.)
In response to your suspicion that this is a sensitivity to chicken...I don't think so because Pearl has been on chicken breasts since the start before switching that to a fattier option - chicken thighs and legs. Also, she got sick when she was still on chicken breasts. We hadn't had legs and thighs yet.
Timeline: Quit kibble cold turkey on Sept. 12th Started showing symptoms (lethargy, liquid, stinky poops) Oct. 29th. Started taking Betryl November 1st Started taking Metronidozole November 5th Stopped Betryl November 11th (was supposed to last until Nov. 14th) Stopped Metronidozole November 5th (this was the date it was scheduled to stop).
**This med schedule is the same for Beatrix too, but her symptoms were much less severe but I suspect she has the same parasite. It would be basically impossible for her not to.**
I'll post poop pics this evening.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 21:21:20 GMT -5
I don't have any poop pics to post tonight. Pearl did not poop while she was out for a short time.
I spoke with my vet again tonight and asked him some questions about what we are going through. Basically, he suggested not giving them their raw food as long as they are fighting parasites. That does make sense to me. If there are parasites in the meat I have right now, it would completely defeat the purpose of treating the parasites and hoping it gets better. So, I saw no other choice but to give their kibble because I had no other alternative for food for tonight. I feel terrible because I've put a lot of work into getting us where we are. But I see the value of his suggestion for the time being. He also gave me a website to double check our recipe. It is a website that was developed by a veterinarian nutritionist. I'd like to look into that before going further with our switch. Trust me, I feel terrible for taking your time and taking a spot from someone else over the last few weeks. I just feel like for right now, this is the best option for us until I can get things under control. I hope to apply back to the mentor program bc I really do think raw is the best option. You all have taught me so much and I hope I can still come to all of you with questions and to seek support.
I expect that I need to step away from the mentor program for now and hope you will understand. I hope to be back at this soon once I can gain some more knowledge.
If you have any guidance or thoughts to offer me on this decision, I appreciate your feed back.
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 20, 2014 21:43:09 GMT -5
First of all WHAT parasite did he say she has? Also, why does just she have if it came from the meat? Bea should be infected as well if the meat was the source. Honestly, ALL of us (the mentors) are suspicious of this diagnosis. Please post the blood work you got and any other info.
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Post by bitbyter on Nov 20, 2014 21:45:32 GMT -5
Also, could you post a like the website he suggested?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 10:00:11 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I feel so in the middle right now. I only want to do what's best for my girls. The following links are what he told me to check out. I'm not exactly sure where to look on the UC Davis website yet though. I'll do some looking this weekend. The first website looks pretty straight forward but I'll have to look at it this weekend too. secure.balanceit.com/ www.ucdavis.edu/search/index.html?cx=004393900062766886059:da23-x1vm6k&q=vetrenary%20nutrition&cof=FORID:9 The vet doesn't know for sure what parasite they have but is speculating that they do have one based on the results of the blood work. Some things were a little low, some were a little high, and for whatever reason, based on those levels, he thought they are trying to fight off a parasite and was just speculating that it was from the meat bc that would be the most likely source. He does suspect that Bea has it as well and her poops have been liquidy a lot of the time too. Sometimes they are more formed, but sometimes they are very liquid. Her energy level is normal though. He thought she just isn't as affected by it for whatever reason as Pearl is but she has it too. We did a fecal test on Pearl's sample but nothing was found in there. That's confusing to me bc wouldn't you think that parasites would be all over the place in her poop if that was the case? I'm planning to get some epigen 90 (have to order it, pet stores don't carry it here) bc I'd feel better with them on that rather than their kibble, until I get this a little bit more figured out. I'm just really at a loss here. I'm in no way, trying to undermine your and the other mentors' knowledge, or our vet's. I just really feel in the middle and don't want my girls to suffer because they are basically my guinea pigs right now. Any information and support you or any of the other mentors have, is greatly appreciated.
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