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Post by katt on Dec 13, 2012 5:01:50 GMT -5
[/IMG] [/quote] No, not licks, calcium powder. This is my preferred one, but any D3 Phosphorus free brand should work. www.reptileuv.com/rep-cal-calcium-phosphorous-free-no-d3.php (As a side note btw, even with a balanced diet it is good to supplement with calcium for most lizard and gecko species. Even with proper lighting and diet they can get calcium deficiencies that lead to Metabolic Bone Disease.) Does one chicken wing fill him up, or does it just take him all day because it is a challenge to eat? (not that it is bad thing for him to work for his food) It is important that he is getting enough food...
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Post by katt on Dec 13, 2012 5:07:15 GMT -5
Oops sorry I'm having issues with my phone lol I didn't mean to put those smileys and I wasn't done typing... are muscle meats included in the bone meals? I've always given 1 liver meal a week, does kidney work for that also ? And do I give hearts just one day a week also? And the ready of the week its wings (or other bones when I can ), gizzards and horse ? Muscle meats are included in the bone meals. For example a chicken wing. That is meat and bone. You could also include say some minced beef with a wing. Liver and kidney are very different, he should get both. He should be getting approximately 10% (so 1.5 meals on a 2 meal per day menu) organ meat. At least half of this needs to be liver, and half of it should be other organs, such as kidney. Hearts should be given minimum one meal per week. I prefer to give 1.5 - 2 meals a week of heart. I find it easiest to have one meal a week all organs (half liver, half other organs), one meal a week all hearts, and one meal a week half organs, half heart. To ensure he is getting enough liver, the half-organ segment of the last meal I mentioned should be either all or half liver. That totals 3 of his meals for the week. Then of the remaining 11, 7-9 should include good sources of edible bone, and the rest can be just plain ol' muscle meat (gizzards, mince, ground meat, etc).
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Post by katt on Dec 13, 2012 5:08:16 GMT -5
Also re-read my initial posts in this thread. There are several example menus there that may give you some ideas, in addition to info on variety, what counts as organ meat, proper percentages, etc...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 14:50:53 GMT -5
Monday: AM: Chicken Wing
Tuesday: AM:gizzards PM:kidney
Wednesday: AM: Chicken wing PM:horse meat
Thursday: AM:gizzards PM:hearts
Friday: AM: chicken wing PM:liver
Saturday: AM: horse meat PM:hearts
Sunday: AM: chicken wing PM:1/2 liver 1/2 kidney
FOURTEEN MEALS One meal organs (1/2 liver, ½ other organ) One meal half heart, half liver One meal hearts
how does this look? as for the chicken wings, I feel that it fills him up more than it's too hard to eat, ive seen him eat it really fast before, he seems to have no problem eating it and sometimes when i give him some boneless meat with a chicken wing, he wont eat all of the boneless either
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Post by katt on Dec 15, 2012 3:30:50 GMT -5
Monday: AM: Chicken Wing Tuesday: AM:gizzards PM:kidney Wednesday: AM: Chicken wing PM:horse meat Thursday: AM:gizzards PM:hearts Friday: AM: chicken wing PM:liver Saturday: AM: horse meat PM:hearts Sunday: AM: chicken wing PM:1/2 liver 1/2 kidney FOURTEEN MEALS One meal organs (1/2 liver, ½ other organ) One meal half heart, half liver One meal hearts how does this look? as for the chicken wings, I feel that it fills him up more than it's too hard to eat, ive seen him eat it really fast before, he seems to have no problem eating it and sometimes when i give him some boneless meat with a chicken wing, he wont eat all of the boneless either How is his energy? How are his poops? One chicken wing should not be enough for a ferret for an entire day. One meal perhaps, maybe a little over a meal, but one wing seems a very small amount for 2 entire meals for an adult ferret, much less a male. Also you said that you have 1.5 meals organ 1.2 heart, but I see 2.5 meals of heart, and 2.5 organs, most of which is kidney. The menu is also very light on bone. This is okay IF you are going to supplement with a calcium powder as we discussed previously. (Please indicate which meals you will supplement with calcium if that is the route you chose to go). If you are not going to supplement with calcium, then this menu does not include enough bone to meet his calcium needs. Your variety has disappeared as well...? You must have a Minimum of 3 protein sources, right now I see chicken and horse. What happened to pork and beef? What animal are the organs from? I know it's a lot to take in, but they are all very important factors. MY job is to push you to work it out yourself as much as possible with guidance so that a) your furry boy ends up with a well balanced diet, and b) the routine of setting up a menu plan becomes well established in your mind. The menu is not going to be concrete. It will change from week to week, but there are certain elements that MUST be met in each week. Right now many of those elements are missing. I really encourage you to go back and read my initial posts in this thread. There are several example menus that might help give you an idea of how to structure your own menu. Perhaps putting it in a different format will help it make more sense. 14 meals, 2 meals a day. Minimum 3 proteins (more is always better): 1) One meal half liver, half other organs (this can be kidney) 2) One meal half liver, half heart 3) One meal heart 4-10/11) bone-in meals and/OR muscle meat supplemented with calcium 11/12-14) other muscle meats * Specify what supplements and how much given with each meal *Specify what animal each meat came from (i.e. chicken wings, beef heart, turkey gizzards, etc) on each meal listed I hope this helps.
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Post by katt on Dec 16, 2012 17:20:36 GMT -5
Bump
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 18:55:46 GMT -5
The liver is calf and kidney is veal I think .his energy its pretty high lol he runs around alot and leaves the chicken wings in the XDbowl all day. His poop depends on the day, it varies from mushy to "normal".I knw uI have a lot of chicken but that's the easiest thing top find .they have alot of variety of chicken parts. I sometimes find chicken necks /backs. I can also get beef andpork
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 18:58:23 GMT -5
Woah my phone was having issues so sorry about the mistakes lol but to finish, I can get beef and pork cubes also but I didn't see that in your list so I thought it wasn't with getting
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Post by katt on Dec 16, 2012 20:23:04 GMT -5
Oops sorry I'm having issues with my phone lol I didn't mean to put those smileys and I wasn't done typing... are muscle meats included in the bone meals? I've always given 1 liver meal a week, does kidney work for that also ? And do I give hearts just one day a week also? And the ready of the week its wings (or other bones when I can ), gizzards and horse ? Muscle meats are included in the bone meals. For example a chicken wing. That is meat and bone. You could also include say some minced beef with a wing. Liver and kidney are very different, he should get both. He should be getting approximately 10% (so 1.5 meals on a 2 meal per day menu) organ meat. At least half of this needs to be liver, and half of it should be other organs, such as kidney. Hearts should be given minimum one meal per week. I prefer to give 1.5 - 2 meals a week of heart. I find it easiest to have one meal a week all organs (half liver, half other organs), one meal a week all hearts, and one meal a week half organs, half heart. To ensure he is getting enough liver, the half-organ segment of the last meal I mentioned should be either all or half liver. That totals 3 of his meals for the week. Then of the remaining 11, 7-9 should include good sources of edible bone, and the rest can be just plain ol' muscle meat (gizzards, mince, ground meat, etc). ooooouuuf sorry again! just trying to stay alive over here! if you only knew what my house looks like lol. I'm going to buy meat tomorrow (husband didnt wanna buy more meat while we still had some) but I did look at what I could find; Chicken: necks/backs wings gizzards hearts Beef: cubes i think it was backs or something, i have tried them before but molson didnt seem to like it heart liver pork cubes chops heart liver turkey wings I also found lamb, moose & bison meat (but it came packaged from a company and i think it may be marinated) and the usual stuff i guess you could say. didnt see any duck...I have found the hammer trick to just not work well at all but I will look at your tool thingy you sent me a link to. where would you be shipping from? All of the above sound great. The bison, lamb, and moose will be great ways to add in some variety, even if they are just fed occasionally. As long as they are not marinated of course. I find it helpful when I am buying meat to BUY it in the correct proportions. Then even if they aren't balanced for the week if you say feed an extra meal of turkey or something, you know that overall they are still getting the correct balance. Obviously you want the week to be balanced of course, but at least then you have a backup balance so to speak. So the proportions come out to approximately: 5% liver 5% other organs (kidney, spleen, brain) 10-15% bones 65-70% muscle meat (including gizzards) 10% heart (normally this is included in the muscle meat percentage, hence the lower number above) So if you are purchasing say 100lb of meat, you would want 10lb of heart, 5lb liver, 5lb other organs, and then 80lb of meat, with a good majority of it being bone-in meat. Say a few lbs of gizzards, a few lbs of boneless meats, and then stuff like wings, chicken backs, whole chickens, etc. Shoot for about 7-9 meals of bone-in meats a week. I found the following food : Lean ground horse meat Chicken wings Chicken gizzards Chicken hearts Calf kidney Calf liver Lamb tenderloin chops pork & beef chunks Meat is usually labeled by weight on the packaging. That is what I look at anyways. Horse meat would be interesting, should be fine to feed them for some variety. It sounds like you definitely have some options. The more exotic meats don't have to be regulars, but you can rotate through them to up the variety in his menu. A tip for shopping, I find it much easier to buy in bulk. I will buy a whole bird (turkey, duck, or chicken) and butcher it down to smaller pieces. You will definitely need something that can cut through bones if you do that though. Even a pair of poultry shears would help somewhat. I would have to look for whole chickensn/ducks but for most of what I bought so far like the gizzards and hearts I bought all that they had .using what I listed,what would be an ideal schedule You tell me. Make a menu, and I'll tell you if or where it needs adjusting. If you feed 2 meals a day you should have 1 - 1.5 meals organ (half liver, half other organs), 1 - 1.5 meals heart, and 7-8 bony meals. The easiest way to do the organs and heart is to have a set 2 days (the weekend for example) that are for organs and heart. Then you have feed one meal all organs, one meal all heart, one meal half organs, half heart, and one meal of bony meats. Then you have the other 5 days to get in your remaining 6-7 bony meals and other muscle meats for variety (horse meat, gizzards, etc). I can tell you that you should ideally have at least one more bone source other than chicken wings. I know you said it is hard to find anything, but even if you can get some turkey necks, or pork button ribs, something along those lines. You have enough variety of other meats that I'm not too concerned, but just keep your eye out for other sources of bone whenever you go grocery shopping. I've found that sometimes you can come across random little things that aren't carried regularly. Are you able to supplement with calcium at all? Bone meal, powdered egg shell, or ground cuttle bones are all good to use. I see no reason why reptile calcium can't be used either as long as it is No D3 or phosphorus added... If you can get a decent calcium supplement, you can compromise for your lack of variety of bony meats while adding in more variety so they don't get bored. As it is, half of their diet will be chicken wings (7-8/14 meals). If you can supplement with calcium powder, then you can decrease the bony meals and add the calcium to the horse, beef, pork, lamb, gizzards, etc so they can have more variety. Now with the above in mind let's try to work a little more variety into your fuzz' diet. You have the basic 3 proteins, but more is always better. It should be easy enough to introduce new proteins since Molson already eats meats! (referring to your previous diet of chicken, Pork, and Beef) I don't understand why you did not think beef and pork were okay? The above quotes are all instances in which I indicated that both beef and pork are fine and you should continue to feed them in Addition to more variety.
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Post by katt on Dec 16, 2012 20:26:12 GMT -5
I also have suggested multiple times that you re-read my original posts in this thread. One of this is the following list - which includes both beef and pork (see bolded text) Multiple times each. Okay so I am sure that you have heard a lot of this before, but it will be a good overview and refresher. Sorry in advance for the novel.... For balance, a raw diet for a ferret should consist of the following ratios: Muscle Meat 75-80% (approximately 10% of which should be heart, gizzards should also be included in the muscle meat) Organs: 10% (half of this should be liver, and half should consist of other organs such as kidney, spleen, brain, stomach, reproductive organs, etc. Organ meat is, in ferret diet terms, classified as any major hormone producing tissue in the body) Edible Bone: 10-15% (please note the use of the word edible. Any bones left uneaten - such as large bones - cannot be included in the % bone in the diet) For Variety: Your ferret should regularly receive a bare minimum of 3 proteins. However, the more variety you can offer the better. Even mixing in new meats on occasion is better than never, some meats are seasonal so we understand that you may nto be able to feed everything in the menu year-round. A minimum of 3 proteins should be fed year-round (for example, pork, chicken, and beef). Most meats sold as fit for human consumption are okay to feed ferrets as long as they are NOT processed, seasoned, or injected with saline (read labels carefully). Also, some meats not “fit” for human consumption can bed fed as well, these include meats such as commercial raw made just for pets, whole prey, butcher scraps etc. Ferrets should NEVER be fed processed meats, seasoned/flavored meats, meats with additives, meats injected with saline to preserve freshness. Below is a list of food suggestions: Check Asian markets, Halal meat markets (African markets), other ethnic markets, and butchers. You can always ask if anyone can save scraps or special order for you. The organs I usually find are: beef liver pork liver pork kidneychicken liver Then when I get whole ducks and rabbits from the Asian market they have the organs in them still. Look around too for a pet store that carries commercially ground raw meats. These are a GREAT way to add variety as they often have proteins that you won't find in the store, and they usually have organ, heart, and bones ground into them (but not always so be sure to check). I can get commercial ground: pheasant, rabbit, chicken (Koda can't eat this), turkey, beef (also a no-no for Koda), bison, quail, tripe. Also if you have trouble finding anything, there are other routes you can take. There are some places online where you can order commercially ground organ meat patties and such, and Worst case scenario, there are supplements that can help fill in the gaps but that is a last resort. OK for variety here are some ideas. Pretty much any meat you can get your hands on is ok for them: chicken turkey pork beef (also veal)bison (buffalo) rabbit duck pheasant quail venison and game meats rodent cornish game hen moose goose lamb goat fish (mackerel, salmon, halibut, goldfish, etc also, fish oil is very good for them) Start trying to add in as many new meats as you can find. The more variety the better! Also, seeing as how it is unrealistic to keep an entire farm in your freezer start just trying to locate new meats so that you have an idea of what you have access to, and where you can find what. When you find them feel free to try them out! Some parts that are good to have of all of the above animals: heart (is a muscle meat but vital for the taurine) liver kidney spleen tongue (is a muscle meat) brain (VERY nutritious organ meat - high in taurine) gizzards (is a muscle meat - great for cleaning teeth) chicken feet (good bone source - i.e. for a bone-in meat you could feed pork chops and chicken feet) necks (also a good bone source) ribs ( pork ribs have edible bones - usually that is right on the line of thickest bones they can eat, some ferrets can handle pork ribs other can't, or at least don't, eat the bones, but they can often still get the marrow out depending on the cut) For weight gain if you ever need it, look around for some pork side, pork belly (not stomach, but the meat), or uncured bacon. It is all essentially the same thing - very fatty pieces of pork. Duck is also high in fat. In some places Duck is seasonal, but I find that my Asian market carries it year round. Their diet should be pretty high in fat naturally so unless you are feeding fatty meats as their primary diet you shouldn't have to worry about them being too fattening. If anything they make up for the leanness of chicken.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2012 9:09:00 GMT -5
I knew pork and beef were OK I meant just cubes , I thought the cubes were not enough for a full meal.
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Post by katt on Dec 17, 2012 14:19:01 GMT -5
Anything can be enough for a full meal if you give him enough of it. Just make sure he has enough cubed meat to fill him up with a little leftover.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2012 22:43:02 GMT -5
OK so looking at the schedule I had made I see 3meals of organs (1.5 liver 1.5 kidney ) I think I may have thought I had to give 1.5 meals of each instead of combined ...for the heart I have 2meals so should reduce it to 1.5and I could add pork or beef cubes to full in the holes so to speak ?
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Post by katt on Dec 18, 2012 0:34:33 GMT -5
Yes. Add pork And beef if you can. Also you need more bone meals or to add a calcium supplement, one of the two. A chicken wing should be one meal, not two. Do you have a scale at home? I'm a little concerned he may not be eating enough... It would be helpful if you could weigh the food he gets each meal for a few days and post it here. Are you able to do that? Post what he got, how much (in Oz) and how much was left over by the next meal (in Oz) EXAMPLE: Monday am: 4oz beef cubes, 1oz leftover Monday pm: 2oz chicken liver, 0oz leftover Tuesday am: 1 chicken wing 2oz, 0.5oz leftover Etc.
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Post by katt on Dec 19, 2012 16:59:40 GMT -5
Bump.
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