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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2012 1:55:08 GMT -5
I don't blame them a bit. If they are already separated from momma and in the store, how soon should bite training begin? Also, for the really young kits (under 8 weeks), is it the same training as what Heather describes in the other thread or is it different?
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Post by birgit on Jul 28, 2012 8:00:14 GMT -5
Hope you don't mind 'bumping' this topic. I read here about 12 weeks. What is the normal age in America for (good) 'breeder pups' to sell the little ones? Is that 12 weeks or younger?
Is the 12-weeks based on any research or is it experience? I mean, why is it not 11 or 13 weeks :-)
In the Netherlands, 8 weeks is the minimal age, but it's moving to 9 - 10 weeks.
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Post by Sherry on Jul 28, 2012 8:59:52 GMT -5
I think the "12" week is just used as an average. By staying with their mom for that extra month they do learn to be more social, and are much easier to potty train.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2012 11:09:45 GMT -5
As a UK person I thought I'd add - generally most over here are separated at around 8 weeks, assuming they'll stay with litter mates - many seem to say 10-12 if they're going to live with strange ferrets, partly so they're not as young around adults and partly so they're a bit bigger for intros. But I'd certainly not say 12 is what people expect. You'd also expect somebody knowledgeable to have started nip training at 8 weeks. But most people do try and keep them with littermates.
And common practice now seems to be neutering at around 9 months, ie before or just as they're coming into season. Some with jills give them a jab, let them calm and then spay.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just I know most here are US based and it's obviously quite different practices!
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Post by Sherry on Jul 28, 2012 11:16:53 GMT -5
Very much so! Which is why we enjoy hearing about ferret ownership from around the world. Since the majority of North Americans won't have the opportunity of raising unneutered or undescented ferrets the insight and information from those who DO have the opportunity is invaluable!
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Post by katt on Jul 28, 2012 12:58:19 GMT -5
I have to step in and comment. Even if mom is ONLY training potty habits at 8 weeks (which is not the case, there's so much more to learn) that's a BIG deal. Having one ferret who never learned (and at this plot I've decided it's impossible for him to ever "get it" for other reasons lol) to be clean and potty in his box... Well it Sucks. Kenai poops wherever he pleases, I'm always cleaning up messes, and he tromps through his poop. He is more smelly because of it, and my carpets are constantly being cleaned. Now imagine I'm not the ferret owner I am - I may decide I don't want to deal with him poopig out of the box and just not let him out of his cage. Then maybe he starts having accidents in the cage - well now I just dot want to deal with HIM. To the shelter, or CL he goes. Or maybe he just becomes neglected. Perhaps if he makes me mad enough and I'm an unstable person I flick his nose or fling him around a bit. Then we have bite inhibition - I have one of those as well. Koda was a biter when we got him. Not bite to the bone and make you bleed like many fear based biters, but a baby who hadn't been taught inhibition and thought he could bite anything anytime he pleased. It took us a lot of time and work to train him and he is still mouthy (which we like and allow). But what if I had young children? Maybe I'd just get rid of him. Maybe I'd hit him. What if I just got aggressive in response? There's so many things that can go wrong already, so many things you just CAN'T know when rehoming a baby. A person can seem totally legit and on top of it and then turn around and blow your mind. Why add to the unknown a kit who hasn't been trained to behave by momma? Then to add to it you get emotional problems. Koda has an oral fixation - I am sure that had he been allowed a little more time to nurse, wean on his own time, and be trained by momma he probably wouldn't have as much of a problem. Think of kicking your child out of the house at the age of 5... They can eat real food, and speak English and use the bathroom mostly...but what about communication skills, proper behavior, social skills, etc? Then think of the emotional problems that child develops (just look at kids of divorce, orphans, etc). Ferrets may not be as advanced as humans but the basics are still there. They need mom too!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2012 13:42:28 GMT -5
My hob Finn didn't come live with me until he was 14 weeks old, maybe that's partly why he's such a cool dude
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2012 18:41:45 GMT -5
All true Kat. All kits here seem to do fine with bite inhibition and litter training that I've heard of at 8 weeks, although of course, it may not always be true. I will say of these babies I've taken on at about 5.5-6 weeks, 2 are learning normally bite inhibition but one is quite nippy, not a problem for me but if somebody less ok with such things had taken him on, I'm not sure they'd be handling him now - and of course in 3, 4 weeks when his bite is harder, could definitely be an issue. Plus I know lots do go through a chewy stage when their adult teeth are coming in that, at least in theory, a breeder would be more equipped to deal with than a new owner.
There are also still people in the UK that do rehome at 6 weeks which is too young - these will grow up fine and it's better than the situation they were in, but we are having to do the job of Mummy as well as the job of a new owner - they're still exploring everything with their mouths and are generally real babies. They have each other to learn off, which helps - I think it'd be a LOT of work raising a single kit from this age. It's also worth noting they need feeding more often - I know most people feed adults on raw say 1-2 times a day, these babies are needing feeding smaller amounts every few hours still. Unfortunately I know a lot of people they'd either not get that, or they'd get fed up and just stick them on kibble.
One issue that only now seems to be being recognised in puppies and kittens and somewhat in the rat community, is not all litters of the same species mature at the same rate - with rats some breeders have lines they're happy to home at 6 weeks (standard for rats), some are 8 weeks, many inbetween. Plus many breeders add a stipulation to the age of "if they're ready", so if at 6 weeks they're not as confident as they should be, or still need to learn to not nip or are struggling with food, they stay a few more days.
I think that applies to all animals though - I daresay if you got 10 kits from 10 litters at exactly 8 weeks, some would be more advanced than others - some will have good bite inhibition and be fully litter trained and raring to go into their new lives, some will be nippy, scared and really still needing Mum.
Sherry, I forget descenting is legal/common practise elsewhere! Descenting is I believe illegal here - if not, I'm not sure you'd ever find a vet willing. The earliest I've heard of for non-medical reasons in the UK is 4 months, but most are 8-9, many are well over a year before being done. It's still quite common to jab/false mate jills not to be used for breeding and neuter them their 2nd spring when nearing 2.
On that actually... is a 8 week old who was neutered at 6 weeks going to be more immature at 8? Less natural hormones plus at least a week of healing can't be good for development.
I will say this though, while I'm happy to have the 2 I'm getting at 8 weeks (at 6 they were already litter trained pretty much, to be honest here we work on humans nip training not Mums also though) - I think 2 weeks extra with Mum will always be less damaging than being taken away a few days early. It really cannot hurt them to have that extra time.
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Post by Heather on Jul 28, 2012 20:57:40 GMT -5
**Sherry, I forget descenting is legal/common practise elsewhere! Descenting is I believe illegal here - if not, I'm not sure you'd ever find a vet willing. The earliest I've heard of for non-medical reasons in the UK is 4 months, but most are 8-9, many are well over a year before being done. It's still quite common to jab/false mate jills not to be used for breeding and neuter them their 2nd spring when nearing 2.**
Descenting is done by the farms, no self respecting vet will descent over here either. It's only on rarest occasions (health) that they will consent to do this mutilation.
ciao
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Post by ferretlove67 on Jul 29, 2012 16:13:38 GMT -5
Agree with Heather there It is a farm thing unfortunately :/ Reputable vets or breeders etc. would not IMO even consider it unless as noted, it is absolutely medically necessary. Under 8 weeks is so young ( and many do not until 11-16+) and believe this has been tackled above for obvious reasons. Good topic!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2012 18:13:59 GMT -5
Ahh ok, mass breeding of ferrets isn't really done so much in the UK, most are people's own jills having litters or small time breeders. Though 1 "rodent farm" may be adding ferrets, I hope not. They'd never get away with doing either to young ferrets, they'd end up prosecuted pretty quickly I'd imagine.
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Post by birgit on Aug 2, 2012 4:12:00 GMT -5
In the Netherlands is one big breeder, but he sells the ferrets to the pet shops etc., not neutered. But descending is illegal here and only allowed for medical reasons.
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Post by crazylady on Aug 2, 2012 14:23:47 GMT -5
Hi as most of you know its very rare I let any of mine go ( I mainly breed for myself and to keep lines and improve lines ) but when I do breed most kits stay with mum until 14 -16 weeks then I separate the females and males the females stay with mum and the hobs go with an old jill for a month ( usually one who is short tempered and puts them in the place rather fast should they step out of line lol ) at 20 weeks hobs are paired up from the same litter this way they can live together for the rest of there lives ( if there is an aggressive one in the paring he gets solitary for life lol ) I like the kits to get as much education from an adult as possible they tend to be less nippy this way too ( they see me handle the adults without any biting sure kits nip but they soon learn lol ) I don't know of any vet that descents here in fact I just heard from a friend today that vets are now warning of the dangers of spaying to owners she took a sandy jill in to be spayed due to a possible ovarian cyst( it was ) and the vet did warn her that once spayed there was a possibility of adrenal so maybe just maybe vets are catching on the problems jills can have ( and this jill is five ) if spayed and moving away from the practice if at all possible take care bye for now Bev
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