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Post by crazylady on Mar 16, 2012 18:38:08 GMT -5
thankfully the kennel club (though only because of a documentary on the horrors of inbreeding or the breeding of siblings to keep to show standards ) has finally upped its game at crufts this year all best of breed winners had to undergo an independant vet check before they were put forward to best of type result a lot had there champion certificates denied and they were disqualified ( due to breathing problems misshapen skulls jaws ect ) breeders were in an uproar why ? simple no win no big money for litters or stud ! A leading gentisist spoke on line breeding/in breeding and he simply stated unless at sometime you outcross an animal then problem after problem will arise breeder of these show dogs are breeding to close to often in some cases mother to son ad brother to sister simply to try and recreate another show champion without thinking of what the complications could be for the breed ferrets have survived for thousands of years why simple how often in the wild would a father meet up with a daughter or a brother meet up with a sister ? not very often when you consider all males are nomads and each male covers certain areas plus the death rate is higher due to preditors maybe for the benifit of all animals its time to think natural and how things happen in the wild just my two pennys worth take care bye for now Bev
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Post by nanners on Mar 19, 2012 14:19:23 GMT -5
Thats good that they put up the check. The things people do for big bucks.
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Post by joan on Mar 19, 2012 20:43:59 GMT -5
The following is a post by a professional animal genenticist:
"Both inbreeding and outbreeding are required tools for the animal breeder. Outbreeding is required to give the chance for a crossover event to occur, and inbreeding is required to determine the gene effect.
This is the part companion animal breeders have a problem with, but if you look at it from the standpoint that a little inbreeding in the beginning will save a lot of needless suffering later, it may be easier to handle. I think it is always better for the experienced breeder to handle the trials of genetic deformity that the individual, pet owner, or "backyard breeder." Someone made a comment on the larger farms which guarantee their stock. If you buy one that has a genetic defect you are free to return it for a replacement-but yours would be destroyed. Now this may seem terrible to the individual pet owner-because they are attached to the animal-but may (depending on severity) the best course of action for the animal, to avoid suffering.
I am not promoting thoughtless breeding-to the contrary-all breeding farms should register all breeders with an international registry, so any animal found to have problems can be compaired to a database. If this is a trend in a line, or from a particular animal, the line or animal can be retired from producing young for sale as pets. The breeder can then address the problem in a positive way. There is no cause for trying to make general statements for what other people should do, because when there is demand-for anything-someone will move to fill the demand.
The statement made about a breeder inbreeding and selling the young as pets is valid. Inbreed animals should be retained for the breeders herd, because problem animals can be eliminated. BUT SOME INBREEDING REALLY SHOULD BE DONE BY ALL RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS. (caps mine) The reason is, if you are always outbreeding-breeding unrelated animals together, the detrimental genes are not going to pair off with the like gene, and thus never show. The breeder is unaware of the gene and it propogates through the species. This will eventually produce a longstanding effect as distantly related animals are paired and produce a low level of loss from the "bad" gene. On the other hand, in a line that is inbred, the negative genes are paired in the offspring and thus show. The breeder can then track these genes and work to eliminate them from the line.
My prefered method of breeding market animals is to cross two different inbred lines. This produces the most consistant results, in temperment, coloration, and health. It is a responsible method of breeding because I am taking the risks, in producing the inbred line, and eliminating as many of the undesireable, lethal, and sub-lethal genes as possible. I can also assure my customers of the health and general characteristics the animals will possess, and I will know it is the right animal for their needs.
Some pairings work, and some don't. I will not repeat a cross if undesireable animals result, but every animal is not a new experiment, because I know it's background. Over many years, responsible inbreeding is far better than outbreeding, and gives improvement that is not possible any other way. If you have an animal with a particular trait you want to have more of, don't be afraid to try inbreeding or line breeding.
Just know that any young that result that did not turn out for whatever reason, were better off lost now, than the many times that number that would have been lost later on if outbreeding had been tried."
"how often in the wild would a father meet up with a daughter or a brother meet up with a sister ?"
Since jill kits often remain in their dam's territory if there is plenty of prey, it would be quite common for her sire to breed her the following year if he were still alive and had not been ousted from his territory by another hob. The hob kits tend to disperse more widely, so there is probably less chance of a brother/sister breeding. Such inbreeding accounts for the varying types in different areas, not just polecats but all species.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2012 22:11:12 GMT -5
Joan's post is excellent - inbreeding is a tool, just as line-breeding and out-crossing are tools. Once nature is removed from the equation animals with bad genetics survive and are commonly bred. Without inbreeding, it's impossible to understand what genetics an animal may be carrying. Of course any inbreeding must be done very carefully and on a very restricted basis. If inbreeding is never practiced, it takes MANY MANY generations of offspring to identify defects that may be lurking in a genetic line. Without inbreeding, recessive defects may not be expressed with enough frequency to expose a germline mutation, even over a long, long period of time. For this reason, improper use of out-crossing can cause just as many problems as inbreeding because bad genetics are not identified and culled from "indistinct lines". Indeed, inbreeding tends to bring recessive genes to the foreground faster. The bad stuff becomes apparent, but the breeder then knows what potentially lurks in that genetic line. If the problems that surface are "bad enough" a responsible breeder will cull that line. Done correctly, inbreeding can help to "prove out" sound genetics and/or identify bad recessive genes. In contrast, out-crossing buries problems, which can then easily be passed on to "infect clean lines". But without inbreeding, there is no feasible way to understand the quality of your breeding stock....Without inbreeding, how do you get "clean lines" ? Again, inbreeding is a tool that needs to be used extremely carefully - just like out-crossing. Breeding unrelated animals does not guarantee clean lines. Dirt + dirt = more dirt. The bottom line is that good breeding is very, very difficult. Paddle faster....I hear banjos!!!!! -jennifer
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nanjferret
New member
Ferrets are people too!
Posts: 94
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Post by nanjferret on Mar 24, 2012 17:38:06 GMT -5
Well....not to stir things up and I agree with Joan's rendition on line breeding. Many breeders in the past 12 years have in-bred constantly to produce certain popular colors with unfortunately disastrous results in health. My comment is they are all very dark to black sables. Inbreeding just should never be done and line breeding has to be done very conscientiously to make sure it is not too close as well. Years ago the old adage was every third generation you out crossed to either a sable or albino , of course making sure it was a good line. There were less health problems in general. The albinos are a natural color of the ferret and the dilute colors come from albino crossing into sables for the most part. Nowadays you see very few albinos as they are not popular to sell therefore people have stopped using them which is a shame. I'm not including the obvious defects that comes with the blazes etc here. My question also is how close bred are the ferrets being imported from other countries to the US ? Sorry guys but in my years with ferrets and breeding I just have not seen the evidence that dilutes are any worse than any other color provided the lineage and crossing was done responsibly. Right now we have a huge population of sables in the US from the private breeder sector and more health problems than ever before. Too many have bred from the same popular lines over and over to get that popular color and look. (not including Joan of course) I do think infusion of ferrets from other countries is a good idea for the overall gene population but refer again to my question above as to how close those have been bred. Sorry, just a different view point.
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Post by joan on Mar 24, 2012 19:08:33 GMT -5
Thanks for posting your observations and opinions, Nancy...they're much appreciated!
Most, if not all, of the very dark to black sables you're referring to result from generations of breeding "regular" sables to black mitts from a background which includes a large number of BRMs, along with pandas and blazes. Since I liked the dark color, I looked at a number of pedigrees which went back 6-8 generations and decided against bringin any of these black sables or solids into my breeding program as I felt their genetics were too risky re health and defects of various kinds.
Adding in the various blackself imports with their background of poor health and early deaths, which were imported in the last few years, would only have worsened the genetics of those they were bred to.
Since many of these health problems aren't showing up until the ferrets are 4-5 years old, there is very little incentive for the breeders to remove their winning offspring and descendents from further breeding. Yes, the buyers of these ferrets who expected to have a healthy, long lived ferret are understandably angry and heartbroken, but there are always new buyers coming along who fall for being told that these ferrets are a healthy alternate to the MF ones and/or that their line lives to be 10 years old...both of which I have heard repeatedly from disillusioned buyers of kits from show breeders. IMO, such breeders are, at the very least, guilty of fraud.
Inbreeding only serves its purpose if those which are producing the problems which surface are removed from further breeding, along with any descendents known or suspected to be carriers. This clearly is not being done, as the various health problems are escalating and showing up at increasingly younger ages. Don't blame the inbreeding...blame the irresponsible breeders who are misusing it!
I can't speak for others, but my Swedish imports were outcrosses for many generations. My two UK imports are supposed to come from unrelated parents, but don't have detailed info on them. I would really like to find quality linebred dark sables, from a background of sables only, to import from breeders who have been keeping health and breeding records for generations, but so far no luck.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 23:25:52 GMT -5
GREAT conversation...I've been looking into genetics lately since my own crummy genetics have caused of a lot of grief (I'm an extreme mutt with many problems) line breeding is a form of inbreeding (or vice versa) depending upon the definition used. Different breeders commonly hold different definitions between the two practices. That being said, I do believe there is value in limited use of close breeding to expose recessive traits only if the resulting "population" is VERY carefully "managed" for numerous subsequent generations. "Managed" may even imply that an elimination of an entire line from the breeding pool. No doubt, there are as many differing opinions regarding the use of different breeding practices as there are breeders. One thing everyone will most likely agree on, is that breeders need to gain an understanding of the "genetic potential" contained within their breeding stock. This requires tracking off-spring for multiple generations, regardless of practices put in place. I will be very bold (imagine that ) and state that my personal belief is that inbreeding places a focus on improving genetics on a LONG-TERM basis.....perhaps decades...... Indeed, the initial litters from closely bred lines are "higher-risk" for bringing together both bad and good genes. Early phases of closer breedings require the grit to deal with "immediate disasters" as well as the patience to follow through and track generations of offspring for issues that may surface with age. In reality, only time will reveal whether or not a genetic line is relatively clean. Another fact - inbreeding/line breeding results in a population that may lack the genetic diversity to withstand exposure to an "outside threat". Example: introduction of European diseases to American Indian population. However, the out-crossing of unrelated, stable, genetic lines can result in improved genetics. Again, this is a LONG-TERM focus, which requires a LOT of knowledge and discipline, and patience on the part of the breeder. Specialization and evolution of new species often come about as the result of inbreeding created by a breeding bottleneck.... that is, development of a new species most often happens when isolation of breeding populations occurs. Example = introduction of a species to an island. Inbreeding is, no doubt, inevitable. Yet, some species can still adapt and evolve in spite of the inbreeding that takes place. That being said, I believe that any breeding program requires a long-term focus, and each tool (inbreeding, line-breeding, and out-crossing) must be used very carefully to "ensure" any degree of predictability in the outcome of a litter. These are just my thoughts based upon what I have read about genetics and breeding -jennifer
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2012 22:45:19 GMT -5
jennifer- I love the 'banjos' quote. Cracks me up every time. Question for the group: My MF sable has the bulldog conformation with regular sized feet. This same proportional size of feet is very common in the ferrets I've seen-mostly farm ferrets. My rescue DEW has longer legs and HUGE feet. Even looking at photos here on the forum, I haven't seen ferts that have feet this large. If he was a dog I'd say he was a great dane puppy who hadn't grown into his paws yet. He also can jump a good 15" vertically-although that's not nearly as unusual. Is this characteristic of breeder ferrets, some hybrid polecat genes, or what? I know it's not an MF quality although he does have the double ear dot and one between his toes.
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Post by Heather on Mar 26, 2012 22:55:20 GMT -5
He's a marshals through and through, those dots tell everything....just because certain characteristics happen doesn't mean things have changed. Boris has a bulldog type head too...only the eyes aren't quite right...when you look closely you will see the typical waardenburg head structure, broad, flat head, wide eyes set too far to the side. There have been a number of marshal kits who've come in with super large feet...not sure about that one but Minion (RC ferret) also has huge feet. A DEW often carries these characteristics because most DEWs are waardenburg or neural crest casualties. A marshals fuzz will have no polecat genes, their lines were very carefully chosen and imported years ago. ciao
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nanjferret
New member
Ferrets are people too!
Posts: 94
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Post by nanjferret on Mar 30, 2012 15:43:00 GMT -5
Great conversations! Great genetic review as well. What I am stating is with ferrets especially a little change goes a long way. Now, I breed champagnes occasionally as everyone knows. My champagne lines go back at least 15 years. I have very few of them as they are very difficult to produce as breedings of champagne to champagne will produce a chocolate etc. The last champagne jill I had pass here was 9 years old. She was a wonderful mom and passed that trait on to all of her offspring. The line she is from generally lives past 8 years. But, I know the lines and have for years. Also, just as a side note, the point coloration is considered a pattern of a color. A sable point is a sable in color with the point pattern. It is not the same thing as a blaze or roan coloration. I also know these lines from many years and have seen good health with them. Line breeding has been done with these lines at times to keep the known lines going. I agree out crossing brings in an unknown factor but do think it is necessary at times to introduce new blood with the understanding the new lines must also be well documented. And yes, just when you think your line is pure up pops that ferret that makes you scratch your head and wonder where did that come from. Some of the longest lived and healthiest ferrets I've had were albinos as well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 13:53:36 GMT -5
A quote from Nancy's last post.....
"The last champagne jill I had pass here was 9 years old. She was a wonderful mom and passed that trait on to all of her offspring. The line she is from generally lives past 8 years. But, I know the lines and have for years."
I can verify Nancy's statement above....I have two ferrets (Tonto: Champangne, Kachina: Albino) with VERY STRONG genetics from Nancy's Champagne line. These two are the healthiest ferrets I have owned. My sable girl has been very healthy as well. However, she has been much "more adrenal" and has been more prone to minor nuisance issues. (all 3 are the same age - 7)
Nancy breeds very sparingly, tracks her ferrets closely, and chooses her breeding pairs very carefully. She knows her Champagne line, which has been proven out over a long period of time. When Nancy chooses to out-cross, she understands what traits to seek out/avoid in a potential mate.
Not too many years ago I was completely against inbreeding/line-breeding as it does weaken a line. Close inbreeding is VERY risky as it exposes genetic problems more quickly. Responsible breeders need to be capable of culling animals and/or supporting their needs (not selling them to unsuspecting pet owners) When used very carefully, inbreeding can be a valuable tool if balanced out with complementary stock.
One of the problems I have come to recognize over time is that it's becoming difficult to find unrelated/distinct genetic lines in the US for "conservative out-crossing". When lines are no longer distinct, every litter is, to some degree, an inbreeding. Some breeders have been importing new stock, but as both Nancy and Joan have pointed out, selection of imports is very risky as well (out-crossing does not automatically improve a line!)
As I have always said, good breeding is REALLY DIFFICULT! I am not a breeder and never will be. But I do enjoy reading, sharing ideas and experiences, and learning.
-jennifer
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 19:53:57 GMT -5
I was wondering if I would be able to post the link of this thread to a few Facebook groups to educate people on inbreeding? It's just that I've had to repeat the same discussion over & over again & this might make it that much easier for them to understand. If not, that's okay
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Post by Sherry on Aug 24, 2012 20:23:15 GMT -5
Of course! Feel free
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Post by crazyferretlady on Aug 25, 2012 10:11:33 GMT -5
Phaedra, it doesnt matter what you say (I have read through this whole post) I stand by the fact that inbreeding is not good for the species, I myself being in my 3rd year of breeding would never practise it. Iwouldhowever practise line breeding but as I am only into my 4th generation lines I do not have enough linage and or experience to practise it. Simple as that. Maybe once I have been breeding for 10 years and have the incredible knowledge and experience and know any health problems that have come from my litters I could practise line breeding. As I have previously stated to you, I do not agree and I will not n or ever inbreeding mylines, this is my choice and I should not be made to feel bad on Facebook or HFF about my choices when breeding. I know an absolute minimum of 5 generationsk every single sire and dam and I would never inbreed. You have inbred ferrets and think its ok to inbreed, I don't, end of story.
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Post by Sherry on Aug 25, 2012 10:47:43 GMT -5
And ladies- I have to ask that this discussion be kept out of HFF. Thank you.
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