Freeze Dried Commercial: Questions

[Deleted]

So, after the eraser accident I have convinced my SO that holistic =/= "hooey" with the caveat that it has to look/smell/act like kibble (basically, he doesn't want bowls full of smelly rotting meat everywhere.)

And after a marathon shopping session today (as a treat to myself for passing my licensing boards*) I found a local supply of freeze dried foods.

Vital Essential Chicken Niblets
Ingredients: Ground chicken with bone, chicken heart, chicken liver, herring oil, mixed tocopherols, d-alpha tocopherol

Nutrisca Beef Dinner Bites
Ingredients: Beef with Ground Bone, Beef Heart, Beef Liver, Beef Kidney, Apples, Chickpeas, Peas, Flaxseed, Chicory Root Extract, Cranberries, Salmon Oil (a Source of DHA), Dried Kelp, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Mixed Tocopherols (a Natural Source of Vitamin E), Vitamin D3 Supplement.


Merrick Turkey Steak Patties
Ingredients: Turkey

Questions:
Because they contain bone and heart, do I need to feed organs or other supplemental sources of nutrition?
Both are designed for dogs (and meet analysis for ferret needs) are there any concerns with a combination of these?
The nutrisca is in large pellets, about the size of a golf ball, should I break these up?
Can I feed freeze dried as is or should I try to rehydrate?
If I feed as is I assume I should allow excellent access to water? (There is no way to phrase that question without sounding as if I'm withholding water )
Does the mentoring program work on kibble -> freeze dried?
Alternatively, can I switch to freeze dried like I would switch kibble brands? like mixing the two and slowly phasing out the kibble in the mix? That sounds like a recipe for tummy upset :/

Did I forget anything important?

~Kelli

*How did >my< treat day turn into 'buy stuff for furbaby' day? Please tell me I'm not alone!

[Sherry]

No, you're not alone ;D Been there, done that! Anyway, yes the mentoring program can help with transitioning to freeze dried raw. I've done it.
And yes, it really does need to be rehydrated, at least for their main meals. You can leave a small amount in the cage dry for nibbles.
You don't say if the turkey contains heart/bone/organs. If not, then yes, you need to supplement, at least a small amount of heart and organ, depending on how often they get it.
Depending on where you are from, you can also order Stella and Chewey's online. You can get more variety that way. You need a minimum of 3 different proteins, and more is definitely better.
And yes, you need to break up the larger chunks.
And if you have bowls of rotting meat hanging around, you are feeding WAY too much ;D Been there, done that as well

[Deleted]

I bought the Vital essentials as a treat - I cut them into kibble size pieces and put them on a plate. I had to do the scruff n stuff thing to get them to taste it. 3 out of 5 like it. Now i am putting out a bowl of it nightly and they are eating less kibble.

[miamiferret2]

The vital essentials nibblets I have used. Not sure about the other. When I rehydrate the beef nibblets BOY do they REEK like beef liver & hearts! Gag. So my guess (by the smell) no you would not have to feed organ meats. But I would still throw in some taurine from capsules every other day.
When I feed freeze dried, i rehydrate it. My ferret gets two main meals a day & that's all he really eats. I leave him freeze dried (in dry form) in his bowls in case he wants to snack between meals. He tends to snack more during the night though. During the day if I'm gone at work all day he'll go 12 hours without eating.

[miamiferret2]

At first it is weird to see your ferrets food go untouched when you get home after work. I know he eats well in the morning. He gets his fill & he doesn't need to eat again until night time. Kibble ferrets stand over the bowl every 4 hours it seems. So it is quite a change.

[Deleted]

For healthy ferrets, freeze-dried diets do not NEED to be rehydrated. My 4 ferrets have been feed DRY freeze-fried products for two weeks at a time when I travel. If this is to be done, you MUST provide LOTS of water.

Many people feed 2 smaller fresh raw meals per day and remove all left-overs after 45 minutes - 1 hour. A small amount of dry freezed-dried diet can be left between meals for snacking. This allows more variety without having the fresh meat hanging around.

As with all feeding, variety is a good thing. That means different meats/organs, different brands, etc. Again, the fresh raw can be tightly controlled. If nobody's interested in a meal, it can go back into the fridge. If the freeze dried raw is kept in smaller amounts, the ferrets will be hungry for the next fresh raw feeding.

Of course, there can be reasons for special feeding approaches (as with insulinomic ferrets). Every case is individual.

-jennifer

[Deleted]

Thanks everyone, that was super helpful info!

I'm not sure if he ate any today, I left some rehydrated in his water overflow bowl thinking when he snorkles he'll sort of scruff n stuff himself lol I think he might have tried it but if he did it wasn't much. The dry I left looks the same as this morning.

I fed a little bit of rehydrated mixed with olive oil off a spoon and he licked every bit of it off so baby steps! And then he ran off with a piece of turkey patty and I think he ate it, we'll find out when I clean out his stash area in the sofa tonight, he was under there a long time just to stash it. I'm thinking he'll be more accepting if I continue to treat it as a treat for a little bit?

I read everything I can on the forums and I still feel like I'm flying blind but that might just be my type A showing

~Kelli

[crazylady]

Hi the chicken looks great but I would be a bit concerned about the beef

Ingredients: Beef with Ground Bone, Beef Heart, Beef Liver, Beef Kidney, Apples, Chickpeas, Peas, Flaxseed, Chicory Root Extract, Cranberries, Salmon Oil (a Source of DHA), Dried Kelp, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Mixed Tocopherols (a Natural Source of Vitamin E), Vitamin D3 Supplement.

your apples, peas and cranberries provide SUGAR and the chickpeas kelp chicory root and flax seed cannot be digested by a ferret just my two pennys worth take care bye for now
Bev

[Sherry]

That's fantastic that he ate it for you, even with spoon feeding!!! Major step Just keep spoon feeding him for a few days, then start moving the spoon closer and closer to the dish til it's just sitting there. At that point he should(hopefully!) eat from the dish on his own

[Deleted]

Nov 8, 2011 14:29:59 GMT -5 @mustelidmusk said:

For healthy ferrets, freeze-dried diets do not NEED to be rehydrated. My 4 ferrets have been feed DRY freeze-fried products for two weeks at a time when I travel. If this is to be done, you MUST provide LOTS of water.

Many people feed 2 smaller fresh raw meals per day and remove all left-overs after 45 minutes - 1 hour. A small amount of dry freezed-dried diet can be left between meals for snacking. This allows more variety without having the fresh meat hanging around.

As with all feeding, variety is a good thing. That means different meats/organs, different brands, etc. Again, the fresh raw can be tightly controlled. If nobody's interested in a meal, it can go back into the fridge. If the freeze dried raw is kept in smaller amounts, the ferrets will be hungry for the next fresh raw feeding.

Of course, there can be reasons for special feeding approaches (as with insulinomic ferrets). Every case is individual.

-jennifer

Are you saying they don't need to be rehydrated for vacations/trips/short term, or that they don't need to be rehydrated ever?

I would argue that, while a dry diet won't kill your ferret, it is definitely not ideal. Short periods of time are just fine and probably not too detrimental (unless they become sick/vomit while eating the dry), but I wouldn't advocate it as a long term option.

The reason is because ferrets (and carnivores in general) do not have a substantial thirst drive. About 80% (give or take) of the water consumed is done through their food intake. This means that a carnivores only needs to drink about 20% of the daily water needed. Their bodies will not really make them "thirsty" to drink much more. So despite having 10 bowls of water available, they will not feel the "thirst" urge to drink from them.

When feeding a dry diet, there is usually only about 5% moisture in the food. This means that to be properly hydrated, the ferret needs to drink over 95% of the needed water. This is almost 5 times the normal amount they need to drink. No matter how much water is available, a ferret will just not drink enough to fully hydrate themselves.

Carnivores on a long term dry diet suffer from chronic low level dehydration and, if something happens (sick, vomit, refuses to eat), the level of dehydration can easily become dangerous in a short amount of time.

So, if you're going to feed a freeze dried diet, I would definitely advocate for one that is hydrated most of the time.

[Deleted]

moisture content of freeze dried isn't a whole lot different from kibble and except for sick or kit ferrets kibble is fed dry and most ferrets source of water comes from a drip bottle. Hence they are practically always in a state of dehydration. That is until they get lucky and get switched to raw/whole prey. The OP's SO'S concern about rotted meat is typical of one who doesn't understand the raw feeding method. Don't offer more than they can polish off in 30 minutes or so and only offer twice a day about 12 hours apart. Leaving a dry strip as a chewy between meals is more than adequate. Personally I avoid processed freeze dried especially anything with plants, berries, veggies in it. No sweeteners or smoke flavorings either. I'll freeze dry my own. Feed in a specific place to avoid stashing and adjust to offer only what they'll eat when served.

Every shopping trip is for the critters isn't it?

[miamiferret2]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with feeding a ferret DRY freeze dried while you are on vacation or during work hours for in between meal snacking. it certainly will not kill them.
I am a big advocate for using freeze dried raw along with fresh grocery store raw meat for various reasons. one being veterinary overnight visits which are inevitable with ferrets at some point or another.
if your ferret is at the vet's office (at least in the united states) good luck trying to get your vet or his staff to bash up some chicken wings for little Bandit! you got a better chance of seeing Jesus. okay. its just not happening. I had to drop my raw fed dog off for his surgery in June and they told me that they would feed him kibble but that I could not leave him there with a bag of raw meat. I had to leave him there with a bag of Stella & Chewys freeze dried which they did feed to him (dry).

I rehydrate freeze dried so that I can mix in fresh livers, hearts and fresh meat from the grocery store. can't very well do that with it in dry form or it will look like a breaded veal cutlet. also, my ferret tends to eat alot more when it is rehydrated. when it is in dry form he eats it without a problem though. of course, he has lots of fresh water available 24/7 and he has several bowls of water throughout his room.

[Deleted]

The "he doesn't want bowls full of smelly rotting meat everywhere" comment is because Loki has access to three floors of the house, but never at the same time, depending on what the family is doing. So he has food and water in all three areas. If we move to another part of the house you holler at him to go upstairs or downstairs and he runs along with you. My SO is afraid that if we provide food in one room it would be nasty by the time Loki goes to eat it. He's is a huge food germaphobe so I don't want to and couldn't fight it anyway

I agree with the dehydration aspect AND the kibble being dry aspect. I want to feed him the healthiest diet I can with the biggest variety in the best combination so we can avoid food imprinting in case something becomes unavailable. Since we're still switching and he isnt used to meal times I'm trying to leave both dry and rehydrated out for him when he's caged.

Thats my roundabout apology if I ruffled any feathers It was never my intention.

Good News!
He LURVES his turkey patties. Yesterday he snubbed his nose at kibble and ate a whole patty while sitting in my lap! Sadly, the ONLY ingredient is turkey, no bones or organs, so we're gonna need to work on that but YAY! HE ATE NOT-KIBBLES!!!

Today he ate 1/2 a golf-ball sized of the Nutrisca, mixed in warm water with a little bit of EVOO. I had to spoon feed him every drop of it but he ate it! There was a chunk in there he kept knocking off the spoon into the bowl and eating around it and I thought he was just being ornery until I realized it was a piece of kibble that got added to the mix on accident. I'm a wee bit excited about how good we're doing I meant to get a video but my camera battery died so I will try again next time.

I can't find meat only baby food so I looked at wet kitten food. The ingreds and nutrition of one brand are the best I could find but not optimal. Should I (eventually) get him used to this too in case he gets sick or will a soupie of rehydrated freeze dried be better?

Thanks for being patient with me. I don't want to screw up

~Kelli

Edit: Added some photos for a starting point.

The best top-down I could get (No, he's not playing with my phone cord, its just laying there) :


Here he pancaked because I wasn't playing the right way ;D

Please excuse my desperate need for a pedicure

~Kelli

[Deleted]

Regarding the choice to feed freeze-dried foods in dry state - many healthy ferrets have been fed dry food with no trouble from dehydration whatsoever. In fact, most ferrets live on dry food, and healthy ferrets do not die from dehydration as a primary cause of death. Indeed, dry feeding may not be the ideal choice, but freeze-dried raw is not an ideal diet either.

Wet freeze-dried raw will and does get "rank" if left out. From that perspective, wet freeze-dried raw may fail to meet individual feeding requirements. Different people have different constaints with regard to how they care for their pets.

I personally do not consider feeding dry freeze-dried diets to healthy ferrets to be a huge health risk. I know many people who have been feeding dry carnivore diets long term, and their ferrets are having no issues with dehydration, kidney failure, or any other issues related to dry diet.

Does that make feeding a dry diet the very best option? No. But from what I have seen, it can be done without introducing excessive risk to healthy ferrets.

-jennifer

[Deleted]

I prefer to feed mine dry freeze dried for the same reasons. Ferrets are very smart they WILL drink enough water to rehydrate it in their bellies. :-)