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Post by Heather on Apr 15, 2011 14:48:07 GMT -5
This weekend your show? good luck hope your guys do fantastic and take lots of ribbons ciao
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Post by joclyn on Apr 17, 2011 23:08:55 GMT -5
this weekend was the new castle ferret club show - the one renee set up to benefit helen's 'helping hands' shelter.
yup, lots of ribbons - that's easy to accomplish with having so many ferrets and entering most of 'em in more than one category (i figure i gotta take all of 'em, so, may as well show 'em if they're there anyhoo! )
the BIG surprise of the day was boo boo! he took 1st in sable!!! he's looking better and better the older he gets - and the longer he's on raw! has a bit of a pudge due to the adrenal, tho, so, didn't do all that well in the senior category. he did place in one of the companion rings, too.
obi took 2nd in black sable (his half-sis took 1st) and placed in one of the alter rings.
next month is fandango...
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Post by Heather on Apr 17, 2011 23:13:02 GMT -5
Congratulations... a job well done. I'm glad that you're guys are looking so good because of the diet. That's great. Yay, BooBoo, what a wonderful little fellow. Sounds like you're going to be busy ciao
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Post by joclyn on Apr 25, 2011 19:36:32 GMT -5
chauncey willingly took some giblet AND chewed at it! didn't swallow any of it and ended up stashing it...which is fine. he CHEWED at it and it was his choice to do so! that's progress
grizel? she did the usual you want me to WHAT??? with that??? lol
duncan has been losing weight - initially i thought it was just moving to summer weight - no, that's not it. he's also sleeping a ton and not playing and also has exhibited some insu symptoms.
i separated him to a his own cage & have been bringing him to work to monitor him since mid-week last week. he's just plain NOT EATING well, he is eating - just not nearly enough to maintain himself! so, i've kind of discounted insu since not eating enough will cause the same symptoms to appear...poo seems okay, if very small quantities - kind of dark today which may just be the giblets from last night.
he's barely eating 1/2 ounce or so at a time and it's hours, hours, hours until he eats more and then it's just the same small amount. he will NOT touch mice at all - this is over a week now that he's not eating the mice as normally. he'll eat only just a small part of one. something is seriously wrong because he loves mice! actually, he loves food of any kind - he's always been my lil piglet...always a great eater regardless of what is in the bowl and never fussy with new things, either.
he has eaten a chick and he's eaten the giblets, i still have to 'test' guinea pig although i did see him eat some monday when he was still in the main cage - don't know how much of it he did eat though. i took the s&c treats (that i was going to use with chauncey & grizel and neither one is interested in them yet) and offered duncan...he gobbled a couple down with no problem, so, i'm giving them once a day - sometimes as is and sometimes soaking them to make a mush for him. i've also given him babyfood - just grabbed something when it hit me the problem is he's just not eating and i wanted to get something, anything, into him. he ate that with no problem.
so far today, he's had the s&c mush - i took 3 of the treats and added enough water to make a thick mush. so, a basic serving of soupies that in size i usually do (which is about 2 tablespoons; maybe a little more). i brought a chick and a lg mouse to work and he hasn't touched either...only drank some water.
he ate giblets last night - about 1/2 ounce and then i put the rest of his serving in with him overnight (he normally eats 1 1/2 to 2 ounces at a time) and almost all of it was gone this morning - he may have just finished up before i woke up and the s&c soup may have been enough to carry him through the day - we'll see how he does later with the chick and mouse - i'll leave both available for him until morning.
he's one of those i mentioned before with the black marks on the front teeth. maybe he's got a dental issue and it's interfering with chewing? that doesn't make all that much sense though since he went to town on the giblets which are tough and doesn't want anything to do with mice - which are softer to deal with. only those front teeth on top look bad - everything else looks good. just a tiny bit of tarter on one side in the back - and really, it's just a tiny spot. gums looks nice and healthy and his color is good and so is temp.
poo looks okay and he's urinating okay. no unusual odors to either. the poo is a bit on the dark side and small in quantity - although, he's not taking all that much in, so, the small quantity out seems to match what's going in. it has been a bit on the 'darkish' side - doesn't quite seem to be tarry though as it's not very sticky or thick; just seems like the normal dark stool they put out after hearts or giblets or when they were new on raw and things weren't quite balanced - and he's definitely not eating a balanced diet right now.
we go to the vet tomorrow.
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Post by Heather on Apr 26, 2011 0:21:42 GMT -5
His symptoms sound almost like Yuri. Almost total sessation of food, still moving around. Loosing weight because of lack of nutrition and of course the excess sleeping. I took him in along with Fun-Go who was also exhibiting some "odd" non-descript symptoms. Fun-Go was eating, sleeping a whole lot, not interacting with his business, withdrawn...off. The vet and I hacked it out in her office while watching both boys. She and I finally came down to Fun-Go having insulinoma, so checked his BG and it was low so started him up on pred half dose right now to be increased next week if it was showing to improve his life. Yuri was more difficult....like you we looked at insulinoma, but unlike Fun-Go there appeared to be no balance issues. So, Yuri got treated as adrenal even though there are no real symptoms....we gave him a des shot and started treating him for ulcers....we got it. He's improving, not real fast but improving. I'm not saying that is the issue with your little one, but it's a possibility. ciao
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Post by joclyn on Apr 26, 2011 1:30:36 GMT -5
well, he never ate the chick or the mouse - had absolutely no interest. when we got home, i put him in the main cage so he could have some company for a bit - plus they'd had gp today and there was a bit left. put whoever was awake out for playtime and then did a couple things.
checked on him, let the others out to play and decided to mix up some of the s&c for him...i go to kitchen & make it up and come back out and he's down on the bottom level eating the bit of gp. so i let him be. he didn't eat much of it - so, gave him the mush a bit later. and since he ate some of the gp, i put that in his cage for him to hopefully finish through the night.
i debated whether to start pred or not and opted not to. at the least it would increase appetite - even a really low dose. don't want to mess up any tests though, so, thought i should wait until he's seen.
i actually tried to get an appt with the vet that did the lupron clinic since it probably is adrenal related - nothing available until next week though, so, had to call the other clinic since i know i can get an appt just about any day/time needed (it's very rare that both ferret vets have the same day off). the vet that did the clinic didn't give dunc the des shot, though, i got him and finola done at the 'regular' vet clinic. it's only 8 months since the shot - could very likely be non-effective at this point though.
in fact, i met dr wagner at the new castle show and he said whenever you see any kind of symptoms returning to do lupron if you can't get the des. i wasn't expecting for him to speak at the show - it was VERY informative!! he really knows ferrets and their diseases and, more importantly, he's extremely passionate about it all! he went on from one thing to another for quite a while (almost an hour, i think) and then answered questions. was a pleasure hearing him talk at length like he did and also speaking with him - and getting a couple questions answered
here i thought the extra food that was left over was just the normal phase-down to summer eating habits...no, it's been duncan slowly eating less and less. feel crappy that i didn't pick up on it sooner
and it is likely that he has an ulcer going - whether it's the cause or the result of the not eating, i dunno. we'll see tomorrow what the vet thinks.
i'm also taking obi in - when we did the xray, blood wasn't pulled and it should have been. just to do a basic work-up as well as to look for infection as that may be what's behind the bit of enlargement of the heart. so, we'll be taking care of that tomorrow, too. and chauncey goes for a dental on friday - omg, his teeth are absolutely horrible at the moment - the past month they've gotten really bad! really hope he moves over to raw soon!!
that's weird that you've got two going through the same thing and at the same time!! sorry to hear insu for fun-go. glad it wasn't the same for yuri and very glad that he's responding to the des and the ulcer meds - hopefully the ulcer gets situated/healed very quickly!! give them both some kisses from me!!
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Post by joclyn on Apr 26, 2011 22:54:32 GMT -5
things got worse with dunc - he would NOT eat anything all day today nothing i tried would he take. wouldn't even take a piece and stash it and also wasn't taking in much water.
had a funky poo (kind of tarry and very small quantity) early this afternoon, so i decided to give him some carafate. and hoped that he would eat something afterwards. nope, didn't want the mouse or the turkey chunks, the s&c mush or the baby food. i'd also brought kibble with me (basically was resorting to anything available regardless of raw or not). the kibble at least got his interest and he sniffed & licked and took a couple pieces and stashed them. worked with him a bit and then he actually ate 2 pieces.
so, we get to the vet and it was clear at that point he was dehydrated. if i wasn't called back too quickly i was going to say he needs sub-q while we wait. got called back pretty quickly tho, so, didn't have to force going out of the schedule order. while sitting in the waiting area, he still didn't want the turkey or the baby food, so, i pulled out the baggy of kibble and he started eating it. thank goodness!! didn't want to interrupt him now that he was actually eating something and, of course, we were called back as soon as he started to chow down...so, i picked him & the baggy up with one hand; grabbed the bag of stuff i had with me and the carrier that obi was in in the other and went to the exam room...dunc didn't miss a beat and just kept eating. was SO glad to see it even if it was kibble!!
so, vet does bg check - it's 99 and the kibble couldn't possibly have hit his system yet, so, he's definitely not insulinomic. that was a relief! nothing felt anywhere during exam - no tumors, no blockage, etc. heart is good, too. he does have an ulcer - he was grinding his teeth while eating the kibble and i brought that funky stool so the vet could look at it and he said it was tarry even though it wasn't as nasty-looking as what i've seen before (good to know that there are differences to tarry poo - i'd not known that until today).
i've not heard him grinding, so wasn't sure if ulcer was the problem. he never did it either back when he was on kibble and not since being on raw. do they normally grind their teeth when an ulcer is present when they're raw eaters? i know it's a 'classic' thing to look for with kibble eaters...
since there doesn't seem to be any other med condition going on (other than adrenal) like a tumor somewhere, why would he develop an ulcer? could the raw diet be a factor? even though he switched over to it easily and has, until recently, always eaten well?
i'm perplexed and very surprised here! i'd never have thought they could develop an ulcer on a natural diet! especially in a ferret that's never even had any infections - both duncan and winston have never had anything even though some of the others have had something, so, it's really a mystery here as to why this happened.
k, so the vet wants amoxi/metro/carafate for 2 weeks. so, i guess i'll be doing cooked foods for the most part of that so as to not introduce extra bacteria that may cause additional problems. although, the s&c should be okay to give, shouldn't it, since it is processed to get it dried? less likely to have bacteria, in other words...
the package of turkey that i took out of the freezer yesterday had two chunks of turkey - ended up giving obi what dunc wouldn't eat today and the other piece i'm going to try giving chauncey & grizel...maybe i'll get lucky and chauncey will eat some. i don't expect grizel to....
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Post by Heather on Apr 27, 2011 1:23:40 GMT -5
You say he is adrenal? Ulcers come with the adrenal. Depending on the ferret...adrenal seems to manifest itself in different ways. We think of adrenal = hair loss. I've discovered that even if we control the hair loss, the aggression we don't seem to be able to control the ulcers and the associated IBD. Some ferrets sail through with no real gastric issues. I'm hoping that my Captain Jack is like that. Yuri, Pooka, Nicodemus they all suffered some form of gastro intestinal issues. I read somewhere that the stress caused by the adrenal tumour manifests itself in stress related issues the most common being ulcers. Pooka spent almost all of her 2nd year fighting ulcers, even though she had lupron and des. Neither drug seemed to be able to control them. Raw fed ferrets do get ulcers, just like kibble fed, unfortunately. They seem to tolerate and recouperate faster (seem to respond faster to their meds) but they do get ulcers and they're subject to IBD too. Yuri doesn't grind his teeth, but he has ulcers...there is trace blood in his stools. I find that they usually require a month of medications. I've tried to get by with only 2 weeks but I find within a week or so I'm back at the vet's getting more. She and I have found treating them for a month often allows them greater respite. I hate adrenal, not for the disease itself as its a horrible disease but because of the other diseases it actually spawns I continue to feed raw as long as the ferret tolerates it. There seems to be times when they don't really digest the raw and then I resort to cooking or creating a homeade baby food for them. So, I find myself switching back and forth but I prefer to allow them to eat raw for as long as possible. It's just me Good luck with Duncan, I will light a healing candle for him. I hope you see an improvement soon. I know how troubling this type of behaviour can be ciao
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Post by joclyn on Apr 27, 2011 14:17:03 GMT -5
i was aware of ibd issues associated with adrenal - boo had that and it went away once he was on the lupron for a bit and hasn't returned even after switching to the des. well, maybe he does still have something going on - i occassionally hear him doing little whimpers when i pick him up or even when he's asleep. hmm, maybe i should give him carafate once daily for a bit - just as precautionary.
now, duncan, he WANTS to eat - just isn't. he had some more kibble overnight and won't eat anything today, so far. i kept him by himself for another night - this morning i put him in the cage with the others for some company for a bit before we went to work.
i'd put out a turkey wing for them today and dunc went over and gnawed a bit. i don't think he really ate anything. if he did, it wasn't much - maybe a couple mouthfuls. he wants to eat - just won't take the anything in when it's in front of him. tried the s&c, baby food and a/d (was VERY late for work as a result) and couldn't get anything in him other than one tiny lick at the a/d.
so, have all that with me and i'll water down the a/d to syringe it.
he's pale now though and that is not good
i didn't try the turkey with chauncey & grizel - just lost time to do it. one or both DID eat the s&c mush i'd left in the cage yesterday when dunc didn't want it. so, that's some bit of a plus. darn it! i just realized i forgot to bring that chunk of turkey meat with me...was going to see if dunc wanted it. shoot! although, it's probably best for the moment to do the cooked stuff.
what meds do you find work best in this situation?? the vet prescribed amoxi/metro/carafate. should a stronger anti-biotic be used? and what about prilosec? do you use that as well?? i forgot to ask the vet about that last night - have to call to see if i should be giving that as well.
also, what about slippery elm? would that be something that would be helpful to get the ulcer to heal up? or should i wait on that or not use that at all?
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Post by joclyn on Apr 28, 2011 22:07:24 GMT -5
duncan died this evening.
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Post by Heather on Apr 28, 2011 22:17:17 GMT -5
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Post by joclyn on May 4, 2011 17:50:08 GMT -5
he didn't have an ulcer - he had a kidney issue.
although i can see why the dx was ulcer (he had the tarry poo and was grinding his teeth when he finally ate some kibble) the vet didn't mention anything else as a possible and, other than bg - which was 99; so no insu, no bloodwork was done.
necropsy was done - nothing sent for tests though, so, it could have been infection or it could have been cancer although, infection was mentioned as most likely cause. i was shown pics of the kidneys and they didn't look all that bad, so, it was probably infection...
this could have turned out differently (and should have)
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Post by Heather on May 4, 2011 23:47:11 GMT -5
Unfortunately, misdiagnosis is common with fuzzes. So many of the diseases are similar. I'm so sorry that this was the case with Duncan. I hate adrenal, it's a horrible mess of various problems that are almost impossible to pin down and even worse don't necessarily give you answers with a necropsy. ciao
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Post by joclyn on May 16, 2011 17:10:54 GMT -5
i was told saturday that kidney issues can present as ulcers as well as insu. doing bloodwork wasn't suggested and i didn't think of it - hard way to learn something.
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Post by Heather on May 16, 2011 22:35:08 GMT -5
For every lesson learned we do learn a little more about the puzzles of ferret illnesses. Unfortunately, the price seems to be so high It's just not fair ciao
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